There is a risk with every single move You make in life, thats fact. Until I see vaping bury a family memeber/friend like I have multiple times with smoking, I'm not even slightly concerned.
propylene glycol, and glycerine...... see this, if you havent already.
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That is true, everything has a risk, cant live in a bubble. But its a calculated risk. But all im saying is at the same time keep an open mind, and just dont be so definitive about it is all.
Ill have to look at the study again later. I read a line at the end that sounded like they were suggesting the data was inconclusive.
Ill have to look at the study again later. I read a line at the end that sounded like they were suggesting the data was inconclusive.
Nothing in this life is absolutely guaranteed. Getting out of bed has its risks.
Breathing is a health hazard.
Just sayin....
Breathing is a health hazard.
Just sayin....
Honestly, despite the suggestions of people here, I am not looking for a guarantee. I am simply making a point that people do not want to accept. That this is a new technology, and no one has ever inhaled heated PG, and other ingredients through an electronic device before, all day long, 7 days a week, all year, for perhaps the next 10, 20, 50 years.. and the effects of doing so are not fully known at this point.. whether its PG, VG, WG, vanilla, caramel or strawberries or whatever else ingredient in the liquid.
I gave everyone an example with snus. That it has been used and studied for over 200 years and the research is still ongoing. What did people get out of that statement? That im not satisfied with the health reports of snus either. No, I was giving an example that even after 200 years with many studies, they are still finding things out. Snus has a tiny risk of pancreatic cancer. Small. Maybe insignificant, I dont worry about it. But it's a new discovery.. Even after 200 years lol. Common sense will tell me, that if i use snus everyday, tons of it, for many years, it will have some kind of ill effects. Im not going to be nieve and tell people its 100 percent safe, do it as much as ud like.
I gave everyone an example with snus. That it has been used and studied for over 200 years and the research is still ongoing. What did people get out of that statement? That im not satisfied with the health reports of snus either. No, I was giving an example that even after 200 years with many studies, they are still finding things out. Snus has a tiny risk of pancreatic cancer. Small. Maybe insignificant, I dont worry about it. But it's a new discovery.. Even after 200 years lol. Common sense will tell me, that if i use snus everyday, tons of it, for many years, it will have some kind of ill effects. Im not going to be nieve and tell people its 100 percent safe, do it as much as ud like.
Thanks man. Honestly, if everyone on the health section was paranoid and only talking about all the potential bad health effects of e-cigs, I would be trying to point out how they are probably a lot healthier than cigarettes. Id go against any strong bias just to get both sides into the picture.
But honestly, the reason why I seem to post only negative comments to some people, is because if you look at the health thread, its basically a place where everyone tells you how the ecigs are NOT causing your symptoms. Or how you have a PG allergy. Search PG allergy on this forum and you will find it quoted about 10,000 times. This shouldnt be a place to ridicule people who bring up questions or concerns. It should be a place where we take both sides and possibilities into account and try to work together to make these products as reliable and safe as we can.
But honestly, the reason why I seem to post only negative comments to some people, is because if you look at the health thread, its basically a place where everyone tells you how the ecigs are NOT causing your symptoms. Or how you have a PG allergy. Search PG allergy on this forum and you will find it quoted about 10,000 times. This shouldnt be a place to ridicule people who bring up questions or concerns. It should be a place where we take both sides and possibilities into account and try to work together to make these products as reliable and safe as we can.
Yep .. so you see it has been approved them, what this is all about is getting it approved to swipe our tax money, so those on the hill will be able to get another raise.
I had to get on the bus again for a few stops. Any good researcher will never say that the results of a study are conclusive. Scientists test to DISPROVE their theory. In fact, whenever I turned in a research report it was returned for editing if I drew a definite causality relationship. The strongest statement allowed was along the lines of "... strongly indicates..." Even with known carcinogens, reliable studies speak in terms of "strong links" and other language.
Nothing is guaranteed safe - that is how we identify snake oil salesman. Just watch an infomercial. There are even studies demonstrating that water in high and constant doses can cause death in rats. Here's an example: For instance, did you know that you shouldn't exercise your back for the first hour or so after you wake up because your spine is very hydrated and the disks are more prone to injury?
States it definitely:
TMUSCLE.com | Meet Mister Spine Stuart McGill - Part 2
Doing Sit Ups in the Morning
Identifies probable causality:
Morning Stiffness
Notice how the chiropractor uses the words "normally" and "probably."
I never trust a definite answer in research such as we are discussing unless it starts talking death or debility above statistical probability. Although monkeys living in a cloud of PG for a year or two is pretty indicative...
BTW, there are people in the health thread that have had problems that coincided with their vaping and changing their vaping alleviated the symptoms. We share ideas, resources and experiences and it is best done without judgment. Consider the idea that peoples' bodies are variable and so are their feelings. There can be PG allergy, just as there are very few things that people can't be allergic to (Bubble Boy.) Saying it is a PG allergy is not ridiculing a person, it is trying to help them - that is why VG and non-PG/VG are available. A good friend of mine had to stop eating rice because it caused a severe allergic reaction; the doctor was not ridiculing him when he diagnosed that, but our friends gave him a good ribbing. I personally have slight congestion and sore throat on PG that does not happen with VG. And, yes, PG is on sale more so I have a ton of it. Also, it is customary to read a resource before you dismiss it. Finally, every valid study will end with some kind of disclaimer about inconclusiveness or further study needed - how else do you get funding for the follow-up study
Nothing is guaranteed safe - that is how we identify snake oil salesman. Just watch an infomercial. There are even studies demonstrating that water in high and constant doses can cause death in rats. Here's an example: For instance, did you know that you shouldn't exercise your back for the first hour or so after you wake up because your spine is very hydrated and the disks are more prone to injury?
States it definitely:
TMUSCLE.com | Meet Mister Spine Stuart McGill - Part 2
Doing Sit Ups in the Morning
Identifies probable causality:
Morning Stiffness
Notice how the chiropractor uses the words "normally" and "probably."
I never trust a definite answer in research such as we are discussing unless it starts talking death or debility above statistical probability. Although monkeys living in a cloud of PG for a year or two is pretty indicative...
BTW, there are people in the health thread that have had problems that coincided with their vaping and changing their vaping alleviated the symptoms. We share ideas, resources and experiences and it is best done without judgment. Consider the idea that peoples' bodies are variable and so are their feelings. There can be PG allergy, just as there are very few things that people can't be allergic to (Bubble Boy.) Saying it is a PG allergy is not ridiculing a person, it is trying to help them - that is why VG and non-PG/VG are available. A good friend of mine had to stop eating rice because it caused a severe allergic reaction; the doctor was not ridiculing him when he diagnosed that, but our friends gave him a good ribbing. I personally have slight congestion and sore throat on PG that does not happen with VG. And, yes, PG is on sale more so I have a ton of it. Also, it is customary to read a resource before you dismiss it. Finally, every valid study will end with some kind of disclaimer about inconclusiveness or further study needed - how else do you get funding for the follow-up study
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Jim I agree with most of what you said, no argument from me. It makes sense. The only thing I would add is, usually when major studies are done, they are not always for academic purposes, or the pursuit for knowledge. Most of the times they are funded by a group with a particular interest. Whether its a pharm company wanting to profit off a medication, or a chemical company looking to put a new chemical in whatever products.
The way in which they word things not to be totally conclusive has probably more to do with covering themselves legally than anything.
"Saying it is a PG allergy is not ridiculing a person, it is trying to help them - that is why VG and non-PG/VG are available."
That really was not my point. I dont see it as ridiculing a person. What I was trying to point out is the frequency that statement is used, almost like a scape goat for any symptoms people get. If someone gets a throat irritation, or cannot breath etc, most people want to dismiss it as a PG allergy. This statement is thrown around with great frequency, and to me its sort of becoming an easy way out. It is almost as if we are implying PG is the safest thing in the world with 0 side effects, and if you have any well than u simply must be allergic. That is simply taking blame and/or responsibility away from the liquid from having any side effects. And my problem with that is, no way that many people on here are allergic to PG. Especially if its used in all the products we use.
The way in which they word things not to be totally conclusive has probably more to do with covering themselves legally than anything.
"Saying it is a PG allergy is not ridiculing a person, it is trying to help them - that is why VG and non-PG/VG are available."
That really was not my point. I dont see it as ridiculing a person. What I was trying to point out is the frequency that statement is used, almost like a scape goat for any symptoms people get. If someone gets a throat irritation, or cannot breath etc, most people want to dismiss it as a PG allergy. This statement is thrown around with great frequency, and to me its sort of becoming an easy way out. It is almost as if we are implying PG is the safest thing in the world with 0 side effects, and if you have any well than u simply must be allergic. That is simply taking blame and/or responsibility away from the liquid from having any side effects. And my problem with that is, no way that many people on here are allergic to PG. Especially if its used in all the products we use.
Here's another link from Dow on PG...I did a quick survey through posts and didn't see this one, so if it's a repeat please forgive it:
Both substances are humectants, as has been stated, which would be drying to tissues under a film of it. Another reason we suggest plenty of H2O when vaping. Proper hydration very important.
I have to agree heartily with T.Bob, the 40's testing was the most comprehensive of all even to today.
And any flavorings you use should also be suspect if you're experiencing problems, I've already done several "Bare Bones" tests, i.e, making ejuice with only Nic/VG and plain VG. The only flavoring I use is diluted Tobacco Absolute(in grain alcohol), Caramel extract(in grain alcohol), and Ethyl Maltol. They have been tested by me for irritation and have not been a problem. Premixed flavors are not my thing to use at all, so can't opine on those.
I can Opine on Cigarette Safety, so would rather take my 'chances' with vapor, PG or VG. At least a nice overnight break with my now-full-functioning lungs seems to be causing me no grief at all. My next line of defense from Nicotine deprivation: snus. Just not yet!
PG to me is irritating, I can't use it (causes lung pain and very sore, dry throat/coughing), but have had no problems at all with VG, unless I highly over-use it.
Both substances are humectants, as has been stated, which would be drying to tissues under a film of it. Another reason we suggest plenty of H2O when vaping. Proper hydration very important.
I have to agree heartily with T.Bob, the 40's testing was the most comprehensive of all even to today.
And any flavorings you use should also be suspect if you're experiencing problems, I've already done several "Bare Bones" tests, i.e, making ejuice with only Nic/VG and plain VG. The only flavoring I use is diluted Tobacco Absolute(in grain alcohol), Caramel extract(in grain alcohol), and Ethyl Maltol. They have been tested by me for irritation and have not been a problem. Premixed flavors are not my thing to use at all, so can't opine on those.
I can Opine on Cigarette Safety, so would rather take my 'chances' with vapor, PG or VG. At least a nice overnight break with my now-full-functioning lungs seems to be causing me no grief at all. My next line of defense from Nicotine deprivation: snus. Just not yet!
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This has actually become an interesting thread for me because it gives me an excuse to research these topics in more depth than I personally feel the need for. Paladinx, I think you are really curious and not just being irksome. It is just your many that I think has thrown some of the members off.
I don't believe anyone said PG has no side effects. The main one is that it will dry out your throat and you must increase your hydrating. Statistically, there are not really that many people with reactions. This forum has over 100,000 users, I believe. If 1,000 report problems then that is 1%.
As far as temperature, PG is manufactured using around 200C, that is 392F. VG breaks down at a similar level. A simple observation is that you could not safely touch an atty when it began approaching that temperature. VG produces toxic fumes at 280C, that is 536F. Our atomizers are running around 170 - 180C as per testing by other forum members. The toxic fumes are acrolein, a component of analogs that burn at around 770F.
Many chemists, engineers, scientists and pharmacists on this forum have tested our hardware any liquid in various ways. Here is nicotine recovery, for instance:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ow-much-nicotine-destroyed-during-vaping.html
I have been searching in every nook and cranny and there have been no deaths reported from PG. There are problems with the water absorbing properties and lactic acid by-product of PG. You have to drink extra fluids when you are vaping with PG. For most people that means increasing your intake to the normally recommended amounts. Are you drinking 8 to 10 glasses of water a day? In addition, PG follows the citric cycle and goes through the glucose process into lactic acid. The additional water helps flush this from your system. For some people, the dryness and irritation can not be overcome with fluid intake. There are also problems with anaphylactic reactions and swelling. In one case this was a reaction after an aircraft was de-iced (PG is used in safe antifreeze around food and water systems because there have been no deaths reported from ingestion.)
Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: Key Concepts | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM
Propylene Glycol : Propylene glycol is safe
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/propylene_glycol_addendum.pdf
"Human case studies reporting death caused by exposure to propylene glycol (including industrial use exposure) have not been found in the scientific literature [LaKind, et al. 1999], except the report of a decomposed body of a 45 year old woman found, face down, in a mobile home along with a suicide note and 2 antifreeze containers. Analysis of the body fluid collected from the deceased revealed the presence of 1, 3 propanediol at 445 milligram/deciliter (mg/dl). The decedent’s body fluid was analyzed using gas chromatography with flame ionization detector [Frazee et. al. 2008]. No lethal oral dose of propylene glycol has been reported for humans."
Experimental exposure to propylene glycol mist in aviation emergency training: acute ocular and respiratory effects
"CONCLUSION—Short exposure to PG mist from artificial smoke generators may cause acute ocular and upper airway irritation in non-asthmatic subjects. A few may also react with cough and slight airway obstruction."
I don't believe anyone said PG has no side effects. The main one is that it will dry out your throat and you must increase your hydrating. Statistically, there are not really that many people with reactions. This forum has over 100,000 users, I believe. If 1,000 report problems then that is 1%.
As far as temperature, PG is manufactured using around 200C, that is 392F. VG breaks down at a similar level. A simple observation is that you could not safely touch an atty when it began approaching that temperature. VG produces toxic fumes at 280C, that is 536F. Our atomizers are running around 170 - 180C as per testing by other forum members. The toxic fumes are acrolein, a component of analogs that burn at around 770F.
Many chemists, engineers, scientists and pharmacists on this forum have tested our hardware any liquid in various ways. Here is nicotine recovery, for instance:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ow-much-nicotine-destroyed-during-vaping.html
I have been searching in every nook and cranny and there have been no deaths reported from PG. There are problems with the water absorbing properties and lactic acid by-product of PG. You have to drink extra fluids when you are vaping with PG. For most people that means increasing your intake to the normally recommended amounts. Are you drinking 8 to 10 glasses of water a day? In addition, PG follows the citric cycle and goes through the glucose process into lactic acid. The additional water helps flush this from your system. For some people, the dryness and irritation can not be overcome with fluid intake. There are also problems with anaphylactic reactions and swelling. In one case this was a reaction after an aircraft was de-iced (PG is used in safe antifreeze around food and water systems because there have been no deaths reported from ingestion.)
Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: Key Concepts | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM
Propylene Glycol : Propylene glycol is safe
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/propylene_glycol_addendum.pdf
"Human case studies reporting death caused by exposure to propylene glycol (including industrial use exposure) have not been found in the scientific literature [LaKind, et al. 1999], except the report of a decomposed body of a 45 year old woman found, face down, in a mobile home along with a suicide note and 2 antifreeze containers. Analysis of the body fluid collected from the deceased revealed the presence of 1, 3 propanediol at 445 milligram/deciliter (mg/dl). The decedent’s body fluid was analyzed using gas chromatography with flame ionization detector [Frazee et. al. 2008]. No lethal oral dose of propylene glycol has been reported for humans."
Experimental exposure to propylene glycol mist in aviation emergency training: acute ocular and respiratory effects
"CONCLUSION—Short exposure to PG mist from artificial smoke generators may cause acute ocular and upper airway irritation in non-asthmatic subjects. A few may also react with cough and slight airway obstruction."
Wow...what an incredible amount of time and effort you put into that post, Jim. Thank You!!!
This,of course is just my opinion....probably worth nothing to anyone other than me But what the heck....it's a forum right? So....we gather what information there is about something....or nice people like Jim do it for us.....we read the info and then based on a multitude of factors particular to ourselves we make a choice.
The most valuable thing I have learned by participating in this forum has nothing to do with e-cigs. It has to do with listening....really listening to what other people are saying and then stopping to think about rather what they have said might have some relevance to me.I've made an ... of myself numerous times by being more interested in expressing my own opinion, however ignorant or misguided, than I was in learning something new. I want to thank everyone who had had the courage to keep posting in the face of adversity because they believe in what they are saying. Because you can take heart in knowing that sometimes, someone, like me...finally listens and benefits.
Cheers and Happy Vaping to everyone!
This,of course is just my opinion....probably worth nothing to anyone other than me
But what the heck....it's a forum right? So....we gather what information there is about something....or nice people like Jim do it for us.....we read the info and then based on a multitude of factors particular to ourselves we make a choice.The most valuable thing I have learned by participating in this forum has nothing to do with e-cigs. It has to do with listening....really listening to what other people are saying and then stopping to think about rather what they have said might have some relevance to me.I've made an ... of myself numerous times by being more interested in expressing my own opinion, however ignorant or misguided, than I was in learning something new. I want to thank everyone who had had the courage to keep posting in the face of adversity because they believe in what they are saying. Because you can take heart in knowing that sometimes, someone, like me...finally listens and benefits.
Cheers and Happy Vaping to everyone!
Thanks for the info Jim, Sounds like you know your stuff. Believe me, I am in no way convinced that PG is some kind of deadly poison like arsenic. Its too common of a product to be deadly poison that will be responsible for deaths around the country.
It is not necessarily about the PG itself for me. Its about the way in which we use it.
"CONCLUSIONShort exposure to PG mist from artificial smoke generators may cause acute ocular and upper airway irritation in non-asthmatic subjects. A few may also react with cough and slight airway obstruction."
Now they are saying that it can cause minor reactions in short exposures. That is not a very big deal to me, but it shows that it is an irritant. Now the big question is, if you are inhaling this stuff a lot, over and over again, will your body just become used to it and adjust - getting more adapt to disposing of it, or will the irritation end up leading to something else.
The best answer we have for this is the study done back in 1940 on some chimpanzees. Most people say that is all the information we need, I do not feel this way. Ask yourself this, would you take a brand new medication today that had no clinical trials whatsoever, but had a study done on some monkeys back in 1940? Would that be enough for you ?
There are many medicines out there that had specific clinical trials done on HUMANS that even get recalled all the time because they find it causes some other kind of long term problem.
It is not necessarily about the PG itself for me. Its about the way in which we use it.
"CONCLUSIONShort exposure to PG mist from artificial smoke generators may cause acute ocular and upper airway irritation in non-asthmatic subjects. A few may also react with cough and slight airway obstruction."
Now they are saying that it can cause minor reactions in short exposures. That is not a very big deal to me, but it shows that it is an irritant. Now the big question is, if you are inhaling this stuff a lot, over and over again, will your body just become used to it and adjust - getting more adapt to disposing of it, or will the irritation end up leading to something else.
The best answer we have for this is the study done back in 1940 on some chimpanzees. Most people say that is all the information we need, I do not feel this way. Ask yourself this, would you take a brand new medication today that had no clinical trials whatsoever, but had a study done on some monkeys back in 1940? Would that be enough for you ?
There are many medicines out there that had specific clinical trials done on HUMANS that even get recalled all the time because they find it causes some other kind of long term problem.
Palandix...I am in no way dissagreeing with you. But I would like to try and put this issue in perspective. If it isn't too personal of a question....what do you eat everyday?
Are you a commited organic vegan? Or do you supersize at Micky D's ? Do you eat meat...if so..where does it come from ? Drink soda? How 'bout diet soda? I see you live in NYC...have you checked the air quality in your city lately? How 'bout the water...do you drink out of the tap ? Bathe in tap water ?
Most importantly...what do you think of anteaters?
Are you a commited organic vegan? Or do you supersize at Micky D's ? Do you eat meat...if so..where does it come from ? Drink soda? How 'bout diet soda? I see you live in NYC...have you checked the air quality in your city lately? How 'bout the water...do you drink out of the tap ? Bathe in tap water ?
Most importantly...what do you think of anteaters?
I don't know about Paladinx, but I think they're kinda cute sitting on your washer!
Where on earth did he come from? I don't know if our cats would appreciate him, or that I'd know what to feed him, we don't have a lot of ants.
Where on earth did he come from? I don't know if our cats would appreciate him, or that I'd know what to feed him, we don't have a lot of ants.
"Are you a commited organic vegan? Or do you supersize at Micky D's ? Do you eat meat...if so..where does it come from ? Drink soda? How 'bout diet soda? I see you live in NYC...have you checked the air quality in your city lately? How 'bout the water...do you drink out of the tap ? Bathe in tap water ?"
lol, im glad you made this point. No i am not a vegan at all. I never super size my fries, but I love big macs. I also drink regular soda, and breath horrible air quality most days. I love doritos, and icecream, and fried chicken is great.
However, let me make a distinction so I can also put things into perspective. Even though I enjoy a big mac, I am not eating one 5 times a day 7 days a week. Same thing goes for soda and everything else. A big mac, or a coke is not going to kill you, what will kill you is over abusing it. Even cigarettes will not kill you. If someone had a few cigarettes a week, do you honestly think, logically that it will really have any major impact on their longevity? I highly doubt it. The big question with EVERYTHING, is consistency and over abuse. Your body can handle a lot of ...., and more times than not, it takes many years of a lot of abuse to cause you major problems. When we speak about PG and vaping, we are talking about a habitual action. Something that is going to be used at a very high frequency for perhaps 10, 20, or 50 years.
lol, im glad you made this point. No i am not a vegan at all. I never super size my fries, but I love big macs. I also drink regular soda, and breath horrible air quality most days. I love doritos, and icecream, and fried chicken is great.
However, let me make a distinction so I can also put things into perspective. Even though I enjoy a big mac, I am not eating one 5 times a day 7 days a week. Same thing goes for soda and everything else. A big mac, or a coke is not going to kill you, what will kill you is over abusing it. Even cigarettes will not kill you. If someone had a few cigarettes a week, do you honestly think, logically that it will really have any major impact on their longevity? I highly doubt it. The big question with EVERYTHING, is consistency and over abuse. Your body can handle a lot of ...., and more times than not, it takes many years of a lot of abuse to cause you major problems. When we speak about PG and vaping, we are talking about a habitual action. Something that is going to be used at a very high frequency for perhaps 10, 20, or 50 years.
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ya know what,dude....your absolutely right! I see from your reply that you understood my point. And I understand yours. Really....one of the things I have noticed...maybe just for myself...about vaping...is that I use it as a pacifyer....much more so than I ever used analogs. I mean with a pack of cigs...you can count them....you have no doubt about how many you have used. But vaping....good luck. Especially when you find that "one" juice that just makes you go ......."aaaahhhh...I need this!!!" Uhmm....point in fact.....e-cig lanyards. Now why do we need to wear them around our necks?!?!?!? But I do....my husband does.....and the feeling of panic if Goddess help me I leave the house and later realize I don't have my PCC or extra batteries with me? So what's my point????
My point is...that paladinx may be annoying...he may be pissing some of us off...but he does have a valid point. Even if only in theory. And I am thinking that this guy is just trying to do what he feels is right by hammering away at this issue....so that at least we keep it in the back of our minds......and when the time comes maybe it will help some of us make the right decision. After all....we've been fooled once. Do we want to be fooled again? Just a thought.......
paladinx...what about the anteaters???? It's a scientific fact that people who love anteaters are less likely to get cancer.
My point is...that paladinx may be annoying...he may be pissing some of us off...but he does have a valid point. Even if only in theory. And I am thinking that this guy is just trying to do what he feels is right by hammering away at this issue....so that at least we keep it in the back of our minds......and when the time comes maybe it will help some of us make the right decision. After all....we've been fooled once. Do we want to be fooled again? Just a thought.......
paladinx...what about the anteaters???? It's a scientific fact that people who love anteaters are less likely to get cancer.
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Paladinx, I don't understand what your point is. Most of us here fully understand that we don't know what the effect of inhaling PG or VG over that kind of time is. We also understand that there are no studies which can tell us the answer. It simply isn't known. All we can do is make a guess based on the available data. We can't magically start a study 20 years ago to help us now, and we can't find a study which doesn't exist.
To me the available data is sufficient to strongly believe in a hugely lower probability of harm compared to smoking over an equivalent time. And I, like many others here, consider that data strong enough to literally bet my life on my interpretation of the odds. Given that we agree that the long term harm of PG is unknown, what is it that you are suggesting in all of your discussion here? Are we supposed to give you an absolute answer? That isn't going to happen in the time frame that matters to me. No one has done a sufficient study for absolute answers and I will not wait 10 or more years. I'll place my bet (which is my life) based on the available data. Is there a point you are trying to make which affects my bet? If so I haven't understood it so please make it clearer. If not I don't get what you are going on about at all.
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I'd actually disagree with the summary that the best answers come from the study done in the 40s on monkeys...
That study was also extended into the sick shildrens wards of a hospital with them rotating wards every 3 months (you actually have to read the full study in the journal of pharmacology and dig to get that info)...but that's neither here nore there..
I personally think that the NASA study in reguards to airborn contaminants in spacecraft might have a little more validity since it is more recent and NASA was looking at using it aboard space craft and space stations so they went through the trouble of figuring out safe concentrations in confined space over longer time periods (they takie the study out to over 1000 days)....
I'd link it again but it's been linked at least 3 or 4 times in this thread now
This has been discussed before, several times, and here's the conclusion I've reached. Until something new is discovered to contradict this reasoning.
Propylene glycol undergoes metabolic oxidation to pyruvic acid, acetic acid, lactic acid, and propionaldehyde.
(Miller & Bazzano, 1965; Ruddick, 1972).
Propylene glycol (PIM 443)
OK, did some reading. What are the amounts we're inhaling? How many mg of PG are there in one carto? The acceptable daily intake seems to be up to 25 mg per kg of body weight. But that is of course PG ingested or injected, not vaped. But still, I don't think we're anywhere near that amount. All the concerns about possible acidosis, hypoglycaemia, seizures, stupor and cardiac irregularities apply to much, much higher doses. Of course, we're mixing it with a rather powerful poison... As we agreed, all these things will eventually be studied, but for now we have to help ourselves and each other and keep our eyes wide open.
I also ran all those other metabolites by my resident pulmonologist--he didn't seem concerned. He says a sugar molecule is a sugar molecule, it falls apart, it comes together again. In his educated opinion all these metabolites will eventually find each other and form a big glucose molecule along the way. They are all innocuous and present in our bodies at all times, in one form or another. Compared to cigarette smoke...those are just as risky as sugared water (and vinegar-acetic acid).
I feel better. This is fascinating, isn't it?
Estimated acceptable daily intake: up to 25 mg propylene
glycol per kg body weight (Seventeeth Report of the FAO/WHO
Expert Committee, 1974).
Propylene glycol undergoes metabolic oxidation to pyruvic acid, acetic acid, lactic acid, and propionaldehyde.
(Miller & Bazzano, 1965; Ruddick, 1972).
Propylene glycol (PIM 443)
OK, did some reading. What are the amounts we're inhaling? How many mg of PG are there in one carto? The acceptable daily intake seems to be up to 25 mg per kg of body weight. But that is of course PG ingested or injected, not vaped. But still, I don't think we're anywhere near that amount. All the concerns about possible acidosis, hypoglycaemia, seizures, stupor and cardiac irregularities apply to much, much higher doses. Of course, we're mixing it with a rather powerful poison... As we agreed, all these things will eventually be studied, but for now we have to help ourselves and each other and keep our eyes wide open.
I also ran all those other metabolites by my resident pulmonologist--he didn't seem concerned. He says a sugar molecule is a sugar molecule, it falls apart, it comes together again. In his educated opinion all these metabolites will eventually find each other and form a big glucose molecule along the way. They are all innocuous and present in our bodies at all times, in one form or another. Compared to cigarette smoke...those are just as risky as sugared water (and vinegar-acetic acid).
I feel better. This is fascinating, isn't it?
Estimated acceptable daily intake: up to 25 mg propylene
glycol per kg body weight (Seventeeth Report of the FAO/WHO
Expert Committee, 1974).
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