If one gains so many benefits from a substance, wouldn't it stand to reason they would continue to want the benefits from the substance; even become dependent on it?
Non-smoker thinking of vaping
- Thread starter Irishohh
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
No, nicotine has potential for dependence not addiction, in certain circumstances. Those circumstances are concurrent exposure to tobacco and especially smoked tobacco. If you are not sure of the difference between addiction and dependence in modern terminology, please see 'dependence' on this page: E-Cigarette Terminology
If you use the term 'addiction' in connection with vaping, you are just reinforcing the propaganda and helping our opponents.
No, there is no evidence for it whatsoever. I have made a long-term project out of searching for, identifying, and citing any references that may show a connection between nicotine and dependence (6 years so far), and I can't find any. On the other hand there are dozens that give good evidence for dependence on nicotine created solely by co-administration with 9,600 other compounds (tobacco / smoke).
You probably need to read Dr Newhouse's quote on this topic as he's the leading authority - he has clinically administered more nicotine to more never-smokers for more time than anyone else. He says nicotine has "About zero" potential for dependence.
You could make a good case for coffee's dependence potential. It would be anecdotal though, unless you could provide some evidence. You'd need to cite some clinical trials, for example. And if, for example, it was found that coffee could be administered in high doses for long periods with or without signs of withdrawal, then you'd have some evidence to back up any statement pro or con.
The Mayo Clinic has recently published a study that reports coffee has significant health impact, but that's another story. I can well believe that, although I'd need to see the evidence before I were foolish enough to state anything on the subject. However, as Mayo are clearly major pharma spokepersons, they obviously have a massive COI in this area, so you'd want to see anything they come up with repeatable by others with better ethics. They don't appear to have any if the money is good.
Yes. I thought I replied to another of your posts that said essentially the same thing. For me, whether it is acting as a placebo or not, nicotine has significant therapeutic value. It significantly reduced my stutters and 'senior moments' during my lectures over the past 7 weeks (half a semester) when I compared it to the seven weeks immediately preceding when I started vaping the first time in December. As I'm pretty sure I commented here, to deny myself nicotine would be denying myself a successful therapy for my aging brain. So, to answer this post specifically, of course it would stand to reason that I might become dependent on it and, unless I somehow determine that it was just a placebo effect and the effect disappears in the future, I will continue to therapeutically vape. I should determine the reality of this 'therapeutic effect' well within 5 years (i.e., the period of time I smoked in my youth culminating at 2-packs/day usage in 1972), and if a placebo effect is the case, I have little doubt that I will cease using it at all, unless the alcohol euphoria intensification effects persist. After all, a safe alcohol booster can not be a bad thing
Given my excellent health status, there simply isn't any reason to plan to quit vaping. I am currently playing with identifying stimuli associated with nicotine in the juice. A lot of people have suggested throat hit might give presence of nicotine away in a double blind procedure. I think I can duplicate the throat hit phenomenon with adding other compounds, including 99% ethanol to the mix. Obviously, if I can't be blinded to the presence of nicotine in my juice, I may never be able to determine whether my therapeutic effect was real or placebo. But, in the words of Mrs. Clinton, "What difference does it make"
Last edited:
Yes. I thought I replied to another of your posts that said essentially the same thing. For me, whether it is acting as a placebo or not, nicotine has significant therapeutic value. It significantly reduced my stutters and 'senior moments' during my lectures over the past 7 weeks (half a semester) when I compared it to the seven weeks immediately preceding when I started vaping the first time in December. As I'm pretty sure I commented here, to deny myself nicotine would be denying myself a successful therapy for my aging brain. So, to answer this post specifically, of course it would stand to reason that I might become dependent on it and, unless I somehow determine that it was just a placebo effect and the effect disappears in the future, I will continue to therapeuticslly vape. I should determine the reality of this 'therapeutic effect' well within 5 years (i.e., the period of time I smoked in my youth culminating at 2-packs/day usage in 1972), and if a placebo effect is the case, I have little doubt that I will cease using it at all, unless the alcohol euphoria intensification effects persist. After all, a safe alcohol booster can not be a bad thing
I don't care what you do, but you are knowingly getting your students dependent on nicotine?
Yes. According to Benowitz the background plasma nicotine level from the diet is 3ng/ml, and this is a significant amount (some vapers appear to need just 6ng or 8ng).
However, due to the urbanisation of the diet, and the general reduction in the consumption of vegetables, I think the background level will be lower now (except in vegetarians, or those who eat a balanced diet).
I forget the name of the food guy who's advice for the nutritional part of health is the 7-word motto: "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much." Hard to argue with that.
Since nicotine has no potential for dependence except when co-administered with tobacco, starting a tobacco habit does not seem a good idea when there is a far better alternative: pure nicotine.
Admittedly, smoking is far more likely to cause dependence / addiction than snuff or ST (it would be interesting to know how much, I'll ask Prof Rodu or Dr Philips if I remember - probably one or more orders of magnitude) - but any chance of picking up tobacco dependence should be avoided if possible.
Google as in "look for the information yourself"
I can't post links here and I'm not about to sit here for an hour to write you an essay to persuade you
Show us one instance of a never smoker becoming addicted to nicotine without tobacco.
Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
Not necessarily so. It is true for the average person with average equipment. There is a factor 10 genetic difference between individuals in tolerance to nicotine (i.e. it has nothing to do with smoking history) - some cannot over-vape 6mg (0.6%) and some must vape 60mg (6%) in order to avoid relapse to smoking (and are asymptomatic). I do know people who vape 60mg.
Of course, the equipment also figures - people vape 3mg from an RBA when they'd use 24mg from a clearo.
If nicotine is the wonder drug which has so many benefits, why wouldn't one become addicted?
Link? Because I can certainly link the scientific studies that say otherwise.
Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
Actually he said his never smoker friends became smokers after using e-cigs...
That proves nothing. If you are going to become a smoker, you are going to become a smoker. Vaping nicotine isn't a gateway and is "Not" addictive.
Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
Hmm. The trick is to find a food or equally benign material that assists with environmentally-caused minor cognitive impairment (early shift surgery, maybe). You have to look at the efficacy vs safety graph to choose well: if it's too effective then chances are there some serious negatives. They gave UK bomber pilots speed in WW2 as it was that or have them die and take out critical equipment (the plane), at the end of long missions. It has a value in certain circumstances.
Otherwise, you might prefer something a little higher on the safety scale, such as nicotine in a brew-up with loads of other alkaloids (we call that tea, by the way). Or pure nic pills. Or vaping, if it's high enough for you on the value vs cost scale.
The studies aren't even to promote vaping. They are for testing nicotine as a medicine. Nowhere in any scientific or medical journal has a non smoker become dependant on nicotine without tobacco.
Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
I'd back him to teach my kids any day, against someone mentally crippled by commercial propaganda.
Everything he says about nicotine / dependence is correct and you will not be able to find a scrap of evidence that says otherwise. I know, I've looked - for the last 6 years, by the way.
If it is such a performance enhancer, or course people would become dependent on it. They only want to focus and think clearly sometimes?
Wow, 14 pages since yesterday? I don't have time to read through that many pages, but will put in my two cents.
I wouldn't encourage vaping for those that aren't using it as a tobacco alternative. I find vaping to be far more addicting than cigarettes ever were for me. But I do it because it's supposedly healthier. I'm basically vaping constantly all day and it hasn't stopped since I switched 7-8 months ago.
I understand how one of the posters mentioned something like it helps them with anxiety. Basically they're using it as an alternative to medication, which I can understand.
If you're just trying to help with focus, there's other ways to do that. Eating certain foods or taking vitamins can help with that, or you can drink coffee which has actually proven to be good for your body to drink, as long as you don't use too much cream and sugar.
I wouldn't encourage vaping for those that aren't using it as a tobacco alternative. I find vaping to be far more addicting than cigarettes ever were for me. But I do it because it's supposedly healthier. I'm basically vaping constantly all day and it hasn't stopped since I switched 7-8 months ago.
I understand how one of the posters mentioned something like it helps them with anxiety. Basically they're using it as an alternative to medication, which I can understand.
If you're just trying to help with focus, there's other ways to do that. Eating certain foods or taking vitamins can help with that, or you can drink coffee which has actually proven to be good for your body to drink, as long as you don't use too much cream and sugar.
That's not dependency if there are zero side effects or withdrawal symptoms. Yet again, you are arguing just for the sake of debate.
Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
- Status
Similar threads
