Not gonna call 'em "Analogs"

[Adrenalynn]

Methinks I like you, "geeky" scientist chick. You crack me up. My monkey, he says he likes you, too.

Thank heavens! I know which one of you two is writing! When there are "couples photos" - I can't necessarily tell who is authoring the posts!

Oh - and thanks!

MaryKay - me too. And always up for a good BBQ - but I'm a vegetarian.

Taryn - if only the guys out there meant it when they said it. That's what they say they want. Give 'em an hour with a geekychick and their runnin' for the nearest airhead. Or is that just me? [pout]

 

[CDC700]

Thank heavens! I know which one of you two is writing! When there are "couples photos" - I can't necessarily tell who is authoring the posts!

Oh - and thanks!

MaryKay - me too. And always up for a good BBQ - but I'm a vegetarian.

Taryn - if only the guys out there meant it when they said it. That's what they say they want. Give 'em an hour with a geekychick and their runnin' for the nearest airhead. Or is that just me? [pout]

LOL, smart is sexy, this reminds me of the episode of Family guy when Bryan dates Lauren Conrad(yeah, I love family guy) And FWIW, I refuse to say "analog" or "vaping" to anyone in real life

 

[JohnnyVapor]

Give 'em an hour with a geekychick and their runnin' for the nearest airhead. Or is that just me? [pout]

Are you single? I need someone who can keep me on my toes.

 

[rp_iowa]

OMG - and I thought I had too much time on MY hands - LOL

 

[steamgeek]

and yet.... many (most if you include batt protection) e ciggs have a simple digital chip in them ........

but i agree the analog thing is weird....

 

[Adrenalynn]

Steam - yes! But so does the cigarette. Its digital igniter is off-board. Most call it a "lighter". Flick your Bick and fire appears. On/Off. Binary state - ergo: its truth table is clearly digital.

The MCU ("chip") is an analog to the lighter.

JV: umm hmm, that's what they all say. Actually I've been dating the same guy off and on for like ten years. I've always said "no" to the BigQuestion - but that's a whole'nudder story.

 

[Guineahill]

I prefer the term personal vaporizer to e-cigarette because it distances us from them (so to speak). I will call cigarettes analogs - but only on this forum and only because it has become a common term here.

I think it caught on because most people believe that anything with batteries is electronic... And anything electronic is digital even though that is not the case. Not all of those little bits and pieces inside of electronic items are digital. There are some electronic analog computers still in use today. On the surface they kind of look like old time switchboards that telephone operators used... wire cables, jacks, and switches everywhere!

(When I was in Engineering school the course that drove me nuts was Analog Electronics. But I loved Digital Electronics and ended up teaching the lab when I was in grad school. Believe me... they are very different things!)

 

[spaky]

I've got to say that I disagree that regular cigs would be digital being that they are on or off. An analog device is one that can cover a varying range. The cherry on a cig does just that. It depends on if it is being puffed on and how hard of a drag is being pulled as to how hot and how much smoke is inhaled.

With an ecig it doesn't really matter how hard you pull a drag on it, you can only pull in what has been vaporized. In fact it seems to me that ecigs are exactly what digital means, either the atomizer is getting 3.7V or no volts. It would give you the top hat read out on an oscilloscope that any digital device should give: +5V or 0V.

Fwiw I'm an electrician with 6 years of schooling. Or at least used to be till the economy turned me back into a pizza delivery driver.

 

[JohnnyVapor]

Steam - yes! But so does the cigarette. Its digital igniter is off-board. Most call it a "lighter". Flick your Bick and fire appears. On/Off. Binary state - ergo: its truth table is clearly digital.

What about lighters with an adjustable flame? They use an analog control mechanism to deliver the amount of flame. Not to mention that if that is the criterion for determining analog/digital, then a record player is technically digital. It's either on or off. Bah on semantics anyhow. I did chuckle when I heard someone refer to cigarettes as '.... logs' though.

JV: umm hmm, that's what they all say. Actually I've been dating the same guy off and on for like ten years. I've always said "no" to the BigQuestion - but that's a whole'nudder story.

He's probably a lucky guy, he just may not realize it. One day I'll find a genius woman and have super-genius babies to TAKE OVER THE WORLD...

Oops, shouldn't have let that plan get out. >_>

 

[Adrenalynn]

either the atomizer is getting 3.7V or no volts. It would give you the top hat read out on an oscilloscope that any digital device should give: +5V or 0V.

Nope! No regulator there. The atomizer is getting probably 3.3~4.2v. Which is decidedly analog - you're not going to see any pretty top-hat if you're reading the voltage at the anode. The longer you draw, the lower the voltage and higher the current as the device heats and its internal resistance drops. Otherwise a 13 second draw would be the same temp as a 1 second draw. We can also observe this as we stop drawing and the LED dims to its zero state and the atomizer slowly percolates down.

I haven't measured the battery or pulled a part number off of it, but I'd guess it's probably a 2C LiIon, and typically, given internal resistance, probably 4.2v at full charge on the surface. I'll pull a single cell LiIon down to 3.1 in a deep cycle environment, 3.2 if I'm not feeling like taking the risk. 3.3 is pretty typical in consumer applications.

Fwiw I'm an electrician with 6 years of schooling. Or at least used to be till the economy turned me back into a pizza delivery driver.

Also FWIW: BSc/Physics, MS/EE [emphasis on CS and Firmware Engr'ing in embedded systems], MS/Math [emphasis on applied mathematics]

Normally I'd be obnoxious and disassemble one, toss it on the storage scope, capture the run, and post it - but alas, my lab is in boxes as I'm moving. [pout]

 

[Adrenalynn]

What about lighters with an adjustable flame? They use an analog control mechanism to deliver the amount of flame. Not to mention that if that is the criterion for determining analog/digital, then a record player is technically digital. It's either on or off.

Ok - I grant you the adjustable flame.

The record player has a speed control on its inductive drive (motor). The record itself is a direct analog representation of the recording rather than a sampled recording.

He's probably a lucky guy, he just may not realize it. One day I'll find a genius woman and have super-genius babies to TAKE OVER THE WORLD...

Oops, shouldn't have let that plan get out. >_>

I appreciate the sentiment, thanks - and your secret is safe with me [depending upon how much it's worth to you, of course. ]

 

[spaky]

OK technically you may be correct on the batteries. However, how about on a PT? I guess my real point was about how you had said that a regular cig is more digital than an ecig. With those the cherry and how much smoke you get all vary greatly depending on how quickly you smoke them. If you smoke slowly you will get wildly varying hits especially with the FSC cigs. I'm just saying that an ecig is truly either on/off where as an analog has a much greater variance. If you leave an analog sitting for a minute in the ashtray it will go down at a higher rate than the battery when puffing an ecig.

 

[Taryn]

Normally I'd be obnoxious and disassemble one, toss it on the storage scope, capture the run, and post it - but alas, my lab is in boxes as I'm moving. [pout]

Better hurry up and unpack girl, can't be an evil genius without your own lab set up!

 

[Adrenalynn]

I'm not sure that rate of discharge is a good argument for analog vs digital. There should be no rate of discharge if it's digital - remember as you said: "it's either on or off".

Ok - I'll give you the "more analog", and compromise to "equally analog" - are we closer to a middle ground?

I'd have to consider the case of the PV. It's running from the PC's regulator, so a constant 5v source. The volume of gas produced is variable as the atomizer heats up and more completely vaporizes the liquid. The state of the atomizer is of less ultimate import than the temperature of the atomizer - which actually makes it equivalent to the "cherry" that you use as illustration. The hotter the atomizer gets, the more complete the vaporization process, the more vapor produced - up to a point of some diminishing return, one presumes, right? So isn't that approximately equivalent to the "cherry" ?

 

[Adrenalynn]

Better hurry up and unpack girl, can't be an evil genius without your own lab set up!

Yeah, I miss my lab... ::sniff::

http://www.jlrdesigns.com/lab-mess-panorama.jpg

[that was when I was working with the students on their eventual gold medal winning SciOly 'bot]

 

[spaky]

Yes we are getting closer. I'll just end my point with this because it's not like it really matters. I found a couple of graphs that I think illustrate my point and what you are saying best. Here's a graph that I would consider like a regular cig and one which I think you are saying is like an ecig. While neither is digital I would say that an ecig is closer.




And I must say that you sound very smart. Just remember never argue with an idiot, cause if I have to I will bring you down to my level and beat you with experience.

 

[Adrenalynn]

I would never call you an idiot, for certain. You've had a compelling and reasoned argument throughout. And thank you for the compliment!

That said - "closer to digital" - I sprayed soda all over my now very analog keyboard.

 

[Belletrist]

this whole thread is hilarious.

 

[me2cyclops]

analog=variable a cig produces smoke after lit,
some if you just hold it
more if you take a light drag
even more if you try to suck it inside out
PV produces vapor when activated (auto or manual)
indifferent to how hard you draw or push the button it has two states on and off.
PV= not analog

 

[Adrenalynn]

Sorry, but I strongly disagree.

The harder you draw, the longer you draw, the longer you press the button, the hotter the atomizer gets. The hotter the atomizer gets, the more completely it vaporizes the carrier medium. The more completely it vaporizes the carrier, the more apparent volume of vapor.

The PV doesn't have two states any more than a cigarette does. The PV is constantly variable in temperature, in exactly the same way that a cigarette is.