Official ProVari 3 Thread - P3

[rondasherrill]

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surely a device with IQ™ and HotShot Boost™ can limit amperage based on battery size.

we'll soon find out if Provape is a stubborn company or a smart company, because everyone, everywhere is complaining about the 20w limit (and no, not just cloud chasers)--and these are people, like me, who WANT to buy a P3, not "haters."
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It surely could, but that would require even MORE extensive testing. As a software person, I can tell you this isn't something they can knock out quickly. As I said, it's very likely that right now they have a solid, safe devise that has been tested thoroughly, and then other stuff will come later. At which point they can say, "Hey, want more? Send it in for a cheap update." A la V1 to V2.

@HBCorpse
I have my thoughts on the whole ultra high wattage thing, although my thoughts may make them angry. From what I have seen, to me it looks like ultra high wattage/high airflow is an easy way to getting more out of a device, as opposed to figuring out how best to make the coil/wick/airflow/drip tip size work together the best way.

I have my Provari putting out 5.5V @ 12 watts, and I can't even vape in my car with the windows up, because I will, in quick order, lose sight of the road if I do. And it's not even the clouds... Throat hit is right where I like it, and flavor is intense. With my setup I do know that going higher would only result in burned juice, so there is no point.

 

[TheKiwi]

I'm sorry, for I am about to speak out of ignorance, as my only experience with a dripper was an Igo-W with a dual coil 1.0 ohm build...I hated it it, I'm sure mostly because it wasn't a "quality dripper", even though I am positive I got a quality build...I trust my local shop manager enough to know that.

My question:
What kind of quality vape can you get from something that is powered above 20 watts? Or 15 watts?
I used to vape standard res cartos (2.7-3.0ohms), at 4.4 volts, for an average of 6-7 watts.
Now I vape a 1.5-1.8ohm micro-coil build on my Kayfuns, at 4.0 volts, for an average of 9-10 watts...
Excuse the math...I know I'm not being laser accurate, but I'm close enough to make my point.

From all the dangers I've heard about sub-ohm builds, I can't see a benefit, other than to make mech mods more efficient, and/or to chase clouds...
But for regulated mods, why can't you just build a coil that registers at 1.0 ohm minimum, and ramp up your power?

I mean, Provape set the bottom at 0.7 ohms, and the top at 20 watts...
If you were to "play it safe" and build just inside those figures, with a 0.8 ohm coil, and run it at 19.8 watts (cuz the P3 adjusts wattage in 0.2 increments), you're gonna be just around 4.0 volts.
So, why not just build a 1.2 ohm coil, and run your voltage up to 4.9? You'll be pulling the same 19.8 watts, so wouldn't you be getting the same vape?

Again, as I stated before, I'm speaking from ignorance, because I don't chase clouds. To me, that's not the point of vaping...I mean, I never lit up more than one cigarette to see how much nicotine and smoke I could handle!
So, can someone please tell me WHY 30 watts is so important? Are regulated mod fans trying to keep up with the (inherently dangerous) raw power of mech mods?

Do I have it all wrong? Do you not need higher wattage to vape lower ohm builds?
I have a general understanding of the electronic principles at work with coil building, and battery discharge...but I'm not an expert...not a cloud chaser...and not a risk taker! ("Risk" in reference to batteries venting and whatnot...)


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser.

Actually you're exactly right, in that the whole sub ohm business came about when folks were trying to maximize the wattage of a unregulated mod. Insisting on subohming just because it is subohm is pretty much pointless for a regulated mod, especially if you want to take advantage of the full output range of the mod. (Eg for a dna30 chip, building to 0.6 ohms will limit you to only outputting at least 20+ watts on a fresh batt)

However an interesting point to make.

A single coil 30ga 1.2 ohm coil will vape VERY differently from a dual coil 28ga 1.2 ohm at the same wattage. In fact, you could have a very good vape at 10W on the former, and a horrendous vape on the latter.

The coils on the latter will be significantly less hot compared to the former, simply because of the sheer mass of metal that has to be heated up by the same amount of power. This is also why it seems weird that some folks can vape 30W comfortably while others find that 15W is scorching hot. It all boils down to the build really.




Burping out loud using Tapatalk

 

[HBcorpse]

So if someone is vaping at 30 watts, what kind of build are they likely to be using?
A quad coil 26g 0.6ohm?
Is that even a thing?


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser, parked at the beach.

 

[TheKiwi]

So if someone is vaping at 30 watts, what kind of build are they likely to be using?
A quad coil 26g 0.6ohm?
Is that even a thing?


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser, parked at the beach.

Lol there's no way to specify that. Folks can vape at 30 watts for a myriad of reasons: cloud chasing, warmth, or just dense wet vapor.

For eg, I vape a very simple dual 30ga 1.2 ohm coil on my fogger just because it gives the warmth and density that I like with dessert vapes (btw, a nice custard vape, warm, paired with coffee in the morning. Best possible way to start the day)

A cloud chaser could be using a lower gauge wire like a 26 or 28 gauge at 30 watts to maximize vaporization surface area to get more clouds.

So yeah. It depends.

Lol btw a quad 26ga at 0.6 ohms and 30 watts would take forever to heat up hahaha.

ETA: LOL just checked out coil toy. A quad 26ga at 0.6 would require 4x 34wraps of 26ga around 1.6mm. Hahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahah

ETA: ok I realize I've been going off topic on this thread with all these coil talks. Back on topic!! Anyways the point of saying all these was thaaaat the p3 with the 20W simply isn't gonna be the device for everyone. Even if provape did bump it up to 30W, there are still gonna be people bidging about how it's not 50W or 100W. Shrug. Just buy it only if it suits your needs. If not, buy other mods. There are plenty out there.


Burping out loud using Tapatalk

 

[protocol]

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@HB

I vape around 22 watts, sometimes lower.

on a mech you need to lower the resistance on the atomizer to increase the wattage. there's no other way to increase voltage or wattage.

on a regulated device the "sweet spot" is supposed to be around 1.5 - 2.0 Ω and then you increase the wattage or voltage via the device.

as to the Igo-W, I'm using one right now and it's great (actually it's a W5, but it's the same as W but just a different topcap).

the only problem with dripping at 1.0 Ω on a mech is that rebuilables, whether they're tanks or drippers, have more airflow and volume, so the flavor is muted at higher resistance (or, to say it another way, at lower voltage/wattage).

as to the cloud stuff, I don't know much about it. I used a dripper because the taste is MUCH better than anything else I've tried. I vape on a rda at 0.8 Ω, which means I'm at 22 watts. I don't understand the cloud stuff, but if it keeps people of analogs it's okay by me. my only concern would be battery safety and cooking juice (ie, formeldahyde).


fwiw, I think the 20 watt limit has just as much to do with perception as anything. if ProVape had set a limit of 30, 35 or 40 no one would have said anything. the fact that Evolv has been at 30 watts for awhile now makes it look at bit odd. there are literally dozens and dozens of popular box mods, and even a few tube mods, that use that chip. like anything it established a standard (for lack of a better term), so that Provape in 2014 offering a 20w limited device and everyone says "...?!"

fwiw, I don't think Provape should get into a wattage arms race, but 30w-40w is nowhere near the ceiling, for what people are building these days.
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[HBcorpse]

Thank you Kiwi and Protocol!

I've got a better understanding of why people are asking for the 30 watt limit, as far as wanting to use it.

However, I still don't see the need for those people to come in here and say "What? Only 20 watts? Lame!"...
Just take the info and make your decision...which will probably be to not get a P3...cuz if 20 watts isn't high enough for you, why get it? Right?

There have been plenty of people who have already said this.

I like that the P3 has a wider spectrum, but being that I never venture very close to either of those ends, I'm not too concerned by it.
I, for one, trust Provape to release only the best stuff. If they don't "go somewhere" in the vape world, it's probably for a reason...and that reason more than likely has more math and engineering behind it, than I'll ever comprehend...

EDIT: I get it, I get it...people are voicing their opinions here, in hopes that Provape is listening, so they might make last minute changes to the P3...which I don't think will happen...yet(?). For the amount of testing and checking Provape does, they could feasibly spend another year on the P3, in order to make sure they produced a SAFE 30 watt device...because after all, that is their priority, and their prerogative.

Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser, parked at the beach.

 

[SeniorBoy]

. surely a device with IQ™ and HotShot Boost™ can limit amperage based on battery size.

we'll soon find out if Provape is a stubborn company or a smart company, because everyone, everywhere is complaining about the 20w limit (and no, not just cloud chasers)--and these are people, like me, who WANT to buy a P3, not "haters."
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So exactly where would I find "everyone" and "everywhere" who is complaining? A poll with legitimate 100K respondents? Please! I understand that YOU want 30 watts and I respect that and understand your wishes but it isn't going to happen in the rollout of the P3.

The "marketplace" will make the final decision and it bares repeating: If you sell a form factor as in the P3 and it accepts 18350 bats someone will try a 30 watt vape and THAT is not safe. Period!

Maybe consider a VS rDNA which is a 30 watt Evolv device and a great one. I've used mine to see what wattage is best for me across numerous builds and numerous delivry devices. Guess what? For me I never got above 17 watts since I don't blow clouds but rather chase flavor.

 

[chadsmo]

The 18350 battery argument doesn't really hold up.

Trustfire 18350 , 6.4 amps at 6 volts and 38 watts with a .93 coil.

AW 18350 , 7 amps at 6 volts and 42 watts with a .85 coil

EFEST red 18350 , 8 amps at 6 volts and 48 watts with a .75 coil.

EFEST purple 18350 , 10.5 amps at 6 volts and 63 watts with a .57 coil.

 

[JohnD0406]

The 18350 battery argument doesn't really hold up.

AW 18350 , 7 amps at 6 volts and 42 watts with a .85 coil

AW's specs claim a 6A maximum for their 18350, so it makes sense to limit somewhere less than the maximum rating as you'd never want to ride the razors edge. Even if a new battery could pull 6A, as it ages, things change.

Using your example, a .85ohm coil @ 4.1V = 19.78W & 4.8A - falls in line with both ProVapes P3 limits and AW's 18350 limits.

 

[chadsmo]

Well everywhere I look the AW is usually listed at 7. Even at 6 there is more than enough amperage to power a 30 watt board.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

I'm sorry, for I am about to speak out of ignorance, as my only experience with a dripper was an Igo-W with a dual coil 1.0 ohm build...I hated it it, I'm sure mostly because it wasn't a "quality dripper", even though I am positive I got a quality build...I trust my local shop manager enough to know that.

My question:
What kind of quality vape can you get from something that is powered above 20 watts? Or 15 watts?
I used to vape standard res cartos (2.7-3.0ohms), at 4.4 volts, for an average of 6-7 watts.
Now I vape a 1.5-1.8ohm micro-coil build on my Kayfuns, at 4.0 volts, for an average of 9-10 watts...
Excuse the math...I know I'm not being laser accurate, but I'm close enough to make my point.

From all the dangers I've heard about sub-ohm builds, I can't see a benefit, other than to make mech mods more efficient, and/or to chase clouds...
But for regulated mods, why can't you just build a coil that registers at 1.0 ohm minimum, and ramp up your power?

I mean, Provape set the bottom at 0.7 ohms, and the top at 20 watts...
If you were to "play it safe" and build just inside those figures, with a 0.8 ohm coil, and run it at 19.8 watts (cuz the P3 adjusts wattage in 0.2 increments), you're gonna be just around 4.0 volts.
So, why not just build a 1.2 ohm coil, and run your voltage up to 4.9? You'll be pulling the same 19.8 watts, so wouldn't you be getting the same vape?

Again, as I stated before, I'm speaking from ignorance, because I don't chase clouds. To me, that's not the point of vaping...I mean, I never lit up more than one cigarette to see how much nicotine and smoke I could handle!
So, can someone please tell me WHY 30 watts is so important? Are regulated mod fans trying to keep up with the (inherently dangerous) raw power of mech mods?

Do I have it all wrong? Do you not need higher wattage to vape lower ohm builds?
I have a general understanding of the electronic principles at work with coil building, and battery discharge...but I'm not an expert...not a cloud chaser...and not a risk taker! ("Risk" in reference to batteries venting and whatnot...)


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser.

I'm not by any means a cloud chaser. In fact I didn't want to try a mech for SEVERAL reasons. I'm an electrical engineer and more than understand what a non-regulated device can do. After vaping for a significant amount of time I started to DIY juice so I picked up a rda and an inexpensive mech. Changed everything! The flavor is so much more pronounced. With a high powered mod you get that same experience only without the voltage drop of a much. I am now a flavor chaser lol
My go to rigs are either my 2.5 with a taifun, a stingray x with a magma or a vaporshark dna30 with either an orchid or veritas.
Some flavors taste especially great to me at the higher wattage. Typically I have the orchid, veritas, or magma at a 0.9 dual coil build running between 24 and 28 Watts depending on which Atty.
IMHO that is nowhere near unsafe level but at the same time enough power for a good flavorful vape.
Not everyone who vapes a high wattage does it for clouds.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

So if someone is vaping at 30 watts, what kind of build are they likely to be using?
A quad coil 26g 0.6ohm?
Is that even a thing?


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser, parked at the beach.

I use either 28g or 30g between. 0.8 and 0.9

 

[JohnD0406]

@HBCorpse
I have my thoughts on the whole ultra high wattage thing, although my thoughts may make them angry. From what I have seen, to me it looks like ultra high wattage/high airflow is an easy way to getting more out of a device, as opposed to figuring out how best to make the coil/wick/airflow/drip tip size work together the best way.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. I felt the same way you did before I got into higher wattage builds. I'm not a "cloud chaser" - that crowd builds super sub-ohm builds (think less than 0.1 ohms) at extremely high wattages (think 100-500W). Everyone here who doesn't understand high wattages is hopefully about to gain some understanding.

"Cloud chasers" and "flavor chasers" are really achieving the same thing, though they act like 2 different crowds. Think about it - cloud chasers try to get as much vapor as possible to blow the biggest cloud. Flavor chasers try to get the most concentrated/dense vapor to get the best flavor. The only difference is volume - density is extremely similar between the two crowds. ...And that brings us to the single differentiating factor - time.

Cloud chasers get that big volume of dense vapor by using a combination of high airflow and high power over a short amount of time. Flavor chasers get a small volume of dense vapor over a longer amount of time. I can take an 8-second draw on a Kayfun at 14W, or a 2-second draw on a dripper at 55W and achieve exactly the same result. So, with the difference being time, the variables are airflow and wattage. The higher the wattage, the more airflow you need (and the thicker wire you need, as 32GA @ 55W would likely burn, while 28GA @ 55W does not).

I used 55W in this example because that's my sweet spot on my Origen dripper. The holes are not very big on the Origen, and it has a small air chamber, which makes it the dripping alternative to the Kayfun - both produce great flavor. My Origen build is currently 4 wraps of 28GA in a dual parallel coil configuration @ 0.32 ohms, which on a fresh charged 4.2V battery is 55W. I like an open draw - I can't stand tight draws. Some people like sucking golf balls through garden hoses - I prefer a more natural, unrestricted inhale. To each their own, right? BUT, whichever preference people have, dictates the airflow and power level they vape at.

While 14W is about right with many different builds I've done on the Kayfun, I'd really like to drill the airway a little bigger and vape at a higher power. The end result is exactly the same - same great flavor, same amount of vapor, just less time needed and an easier draw (but higher wattage needed to achieve that).

I have my Provari putting out 5.5V @ 12 watts, and I can't even vape in my car with the windows up, because I will, in quick order, lose sight of the road if I do. And it's not even the clouds... Throat hit is right where I like it, and flavor is intense. With my setup I do know that going higher would only result in burned juice, so there is no point.

That's another danger of cloud chasing. I live in Southern California, so I guess I'm lucky in that I almost always have the windows open at least a little bit, so that's never a problem. That, and never be foolish to blow a cloud straight in front of yourself - blow it out the corner of your mouth towards the passenger side. As far as throat hit, that again depends on what I discussed above - time, airflow, power (besides the obvious nic level and PG ratio). I mix my own nic (100mg base added to 0mg juices), and only use 2mg on drippers. Same throat hit as 12mg on a more traditional/standard atomizer, and same intense flavor. Like you said, going higher would result in burned juice "on your setup". The same juice on a properly built dripper would give you the ability to more than quadruple the power and quarter the time needed to get the same vape experience.

Hope all that made sense to those who have never tried vaping at higher wattages.

 

[JohnD0406]

Well everywhere I look the AW is usually listed at 7. Even at 6 there is more than enough amperage to power a 30 watt board.

How about going directly to the source - AW himself. Check out AW's post here:

IMR16340 / IMR14500 / IMR18350 / IMR18490 / IMR18650 / IMR26500 *Part 2*

 

[chadsmo]

How about going directly to the source - AW himself. Check out AW's post here:

IMR16340 / IMR14500 / IMR18350 / IMR18490 / IMR18650 / IMR26500 *Part 2*

As I said , it's still more than enough for 30 watts so the battery argument being used is not valid.

 

[brickfollett]

I'm sorry, for I am about to speak out of ignorance, as my only experience with a dripper was an Igo-W with a dual coil 1.0 ohm build...I hated it it, I'm sure mostly because it wasn't a "quality dripper", even though I am positive I got a quality build...I trust my local shop manager enough to know that.

My question:
What kind of quality vape can you get from something that is powered above 20 watts? Or 15 watts?
I used to vape standard res cartos (2.7-3.0ohms), at 4.4 volts, for an average of 6-7 watts.
Now I vape a 1.5-1.8ohm micro-coil build on my Kayfuns, at 4.0 volts, for an average of 9-10 watts...
Excuse the math...I know I'm not being laser accurate, but I'm close enough to make my point.

From all the dangers I've heard about sub-ohm builds, I can't see a benefit, other than to make mech mods more efficient, and/or to chase clouds...
But for regulated mods, why can't you just build a coil that registers at 1.0 ohm minimum, and ramp up your power?

I mean, Provape set the bottom at 0.7 ohms, and the top at 20 watts...
If you were to "play it safe" and build just inside those figures, with a 0.8 ohm coil, and run it at 19.8 watts (cuz the P3 adjusts wattage in 0.2 increments), you're gonna be just around 4.0 volts.
So, why not just build a 1.2 ohm coil, and run your voltage up to 4.9? You'll be pulling the same 19.8 watts, so wouldn't you be getting the same vape?

Again, as I stated before, I'm speaking from ignorance, because I don't chase clouds. To me, that's not the point of vaping...I mean, I never lit up more than one cigarette to see how much nicotine and smoke I could handle!
So, can someone please tell me WHY 30 watts is so important? Are regulated mod fans trying to keep up with the (inherently dangerous) raw power of mech mods?

Do I have it all wrong? Do you not need higher wattage to vape lower ohm builds?
I have a general understanding of the electronic principles at work with coil building, and battery discharge...but I'm not an expert...not a cloud chaser...and not a risk taker! ("Risk" in reference to batteries venting and whatnot...)


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser.

Totally valid points. I actually used to have the same opinions, and then I got my first mech. The problem is that a well built dripper can accept FAR more power than a regular tank, and will not dry hit because we are dripping straight to the wicks. It still stays at a similar temperature as a regular tank, but far more juice is being used to keep those coils cool, which translates to more vapor. 20 watts just isnt enough to reasonably power a well built dripper.

I typically have my Reo built to the relative equivalent of 40-45 watts after voltage drop is accounted for. And I love it!

30 watts on my Cana modz is a bit better, and can really crank out the vapor, but sometimes still feels underpowered to me. Maybe I'm crazy. My Aqua however does very nicely in the 20 watt range, but it's not a dripper. Those of us using tanks like kayfuns, aquas and Foggers will really enjoy the P3. But if your planning on throwing a TOBH or a Stillare on there, you may be disappointed.

We see a lot of our community getting all crazy about cloud chasing and high wattage vaping, but realistically, they (we) are a fraction of the vaping community. We are the ones that get more visibility on the forums because we're passionate about the hobby and are more active, but most people out there are still using Ego batteries, some of which are on ECF, most of which are not.

So if we look at the major population, the P3 appeals to it. People using EGO batteries probably never see anything above 10 watts, and the idea of tripling that power would probably scare them to be honest. The P3 provides a reliable solution to the more unreliable hardware out there.

Thats my input at least

 

[brickfollett]

So if someone is vaping at 30 watts, what kind of build are they likely to be using?
A quad coil 26g 0.6ohm?
Is that even a thing?


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser, parked at the beach.

Quad coils are usually down in the 0.2 ohm range because wattage is divided by each coil. EX: single coil with 30 watts of power, dual coils have 15 watts per coil, quad coil has whatever 30/4 is. Somewhat less than 8 watts per coil, which on a nice dripper, isn't a very impressive vape.

I'll speak for the subohm crowd and say that most of us use dual coils, mine are dual 26 gauges at .45 watts, but they're big coils, 7 wraps around a large bit

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Totally valid points. I actually used to have the same opinions, and then I got my first mech. The problem is that a well built dripper can accept FAR more power than a regular tank, and will not dry hit because we are dripping straight to the wicks. It still stays at a similar temperature as a regular tank, but far more juice is being used to keep those coils cool, which translates to more vapor. 20 watts just isnt enough to reasonably power a well built dripper.

I typically have my Reo built to the relative equivalent of 40-45 watts after voltage drop is accounted for. And I love it!

30 watts on my Cana modz is a bit better, and can really crank out the vapor, but sometimes still feels underpowered to me. Maybe I'm crazy. My Aqua however does very nicely in the 20 watt range, but it's not a dripper. Those of us using tanks like kayfuns, aquas and Foggers will really enjoy the P3. But if your planning on throwing a TOBH or a Stillare on there, you may be disappointed.

We see a lot of our community getting all crazy about cloud chasing and high wattage vaping, but realistically, they (we) are a fraction of the vaping community. We are the ones that get more visibility on the forums because we're passionate about the hobby and are more active, but most people out there are still using Ego batteries, some of which are on ECF, most of which are not.

So if we look at the major population, the P3 appeals to it. People using EGO batteries probably never see anything above 10 watts, and the idea of tripling that power would probably scare them to be honest. The P3 provides a reliable solution to the more unreliable hardware out there.

Thats my input at least

A friend of my fiance has been using egos and the ce4 style clears since 2011. I let her try my provari/kayfun and my girls MVP/aero. While she choked with the provari(was too much Lol) she really enjoyed the mvp/Aero then got the look of total sticker shock at the price. When she heard the provari price I thought she would faint. I wonder how many "average vapers" have that mentality.

 

[HBcorpse]

A friend of my fiance has been using egos and the ce4 style clears since 2011. I let her try my provari/kayfun and my girls MVP/aero. While she choked with the provari(was too much Lol) she really enjoyed the mvp/Aero then got the look of total sticker shock at the price. When she heard the provari price I thought she would faint. I wonder how many "average vapers" have that mentality.

I think most eGo vapers have sticker shock over price, because they never even consider the possibility of moving to bigger devices.
Say what you want, but a low-res carto on a VV eGo works pretty stinkin' well for a person coming off of analogs. I speak from experience. It creates a comfort zone, or security blanket.


Sent from the bridge of my intergalactic star-cruiser, parked at the beach.

 

[PLANofMAN]

As I said , it's still more than enough for 30 watts so the battery argument being used is not valid.

AW is far from being the lowest amp rated battery out there. There are AW 18350 fake batteries on FastTech right now with a 3 amp limit.