Overheating E-Liquid May Produce Formaldehyde

[Rossum]

Does the figure of 200F seem as implausible to you as it does to me?

I assume you're referring back to this?

The average coil wrapped around a wet wick runs in the 200F range.

I would believe "in the 200F range" (i.e. between 200F and 299F) if the liquid in question was water, with a boiling point of 212F. But given that the boiling point of both PG and VG is considerably higher, I'm skeptical.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what the boiling point of e-liquid is. The worst case would be pure VG at 550F, but do know that it's impractical to vape pure VG (because its viscosity is too high) so any supposedly 100% VG e-liquid is cut with at least 5% water, and that likely has a dramatic effect on the boiling point on the resulting solution.

 

[Nate760]

Unbiased researchers do not exist. By virtue of being human, they are biased.

If this were true, there would be no reason for the scientific method to exist. Also, why is it seemingly so difficult for you to make any point without trying to speak on the behalf of large numbers of people you've never met?

 

[Rossum]

I think Nikkel is right, there are no unbiased researchers. The question is, can they and will they set their biases aside and report their findings accurately no matter whether they support or undermine their personal biases?

Take Dr. F as an example. He has a clear pro-vaping bias, but he's willing to report findings even when they don't look good for us.

 

[Nikkel]

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[Nikkel]

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[Rossum]

I am starting to think the safest vape might be a mix of PG and water, although I don't expect it would be very satisfying.

Meh, when it comes to practical questions of the safety of vaping, levels of aldehydes that MIGHT approach the levels in cigarette smoke, but likely only do that under worst-case, dry-hit conditions are not much of a concern to me.

 

[Nate760]

Meh, when it comes to practical questions of the safety of vaping, levels of aldehydes that MIGHT approach the levels in cigarette smoke, but likely only do that under worst-case, dry-hit conditions are not much of a concern to me.

And here we have the crux of the issue. Almost invariably, the studies that claim to find harm and danger in e-cig use do so by engineering scenarios that have absolutely no real-world applicability, e.g. "If you let your tank run dry and continue taking extremely high-wattage dry hits, you might potentially do yourself some harm."

 

[Nate760]

I think my highest level of confidence is in findings unfavorable to the expected bias of the funders and researchers. For example, I recall a study funded by the Templeton Foundation on the subject of the efficacy of prayer as a medical therapy that found no significant correlation.

I'm going to say this as nicely as I possibly can: your understanding of science leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Katya]

Unbiased researchers do not exist.

That is simply a false statement.

And even if it were true, it wouldn't matter. Have you heard about peer review?

 

[Nate760]

That is simply a false statement.

And even if it were true, it wouldn't matter. Have you heard about peer review?

Nikkel seems to think objectivity means "believing at least 50% of an incorrect argument." He keeps trying to imbue the ANTZ with far more credibility than they deserve by creating a false equivalency wherein their arguments are automatically credible simply by virtue of the fact that they exist.

 

[Katya]

Reproducibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rossum]

Have you heard about peer review?

Yep, but I've also seen fields where "controversial" and/or "unpopular" findings have a hard time getting published because they undermine the reviewers' biases and agendas.

Reproducibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reproducing a study or experiment costs money.

By all means, let's do a better study to find out under what circumstances aldehydes are produced in e-cigs and show that it isn't really a problem. All we need is a doctor/professor type who's got some sort of reputation to design, supervise and write it up; an appropriately equipped lab, and some minions to do the actual work; heck it could probably be done for under a million dollars. I don't have a six-figure amount to throw at this. Know anyone who does?

I'm sorta noodling on how to measure coil temps. There are some appropriately tiny thermistors available,

... but they're only rated to 300C.

 

[Steamix]

All I know is this article freaked out my girlfriend enough to make her ask me to smoke my ecigarette near an open window with an air filter on. Which pretty much defeats much of the convenience of vaping for me. I know it's safer than smoking, but it's difficult to convince someone that the secondhand vapor is harmless when articles like this run on the front page of the times.

Unless you live in some pristine corner of this glove, I hope your SO is aware of the fact that stuff wafting in through the opened window could be LOT worse than what you and your mod are producing.

It saddens me no end that once reputable papers are now taking their 30 pieces of silver too....

 

[Hulamoon]

Geez Nikkel. What the hell are you using as a vaporizer? And there's a HUGE difference between 77F and 300C. I'm stumped as to what it is you're trying to say.

I think the boiling point is a more relevant figure. When the button is pressed, ejuice boils furiously and almost instantly. If memory servers me right, in the case of pure glycerine that is almost 300C.
I know from personal experience that coils get hotter than 77F. I touched it once and it burned me.
If I could vape at 77F, here in Louisiana, I wouldn't need a battery.

 

[Hulamoon]

Agreed. If Nikkel's objective is to say there is formaldehyde in vaping, then I want to see it compared to something else, and especially that of cigarette smoke.


Just proving that there "may be …..if……. "this and this and this and that" all come together on the day of a Blue Moon that also happens on a Tuesday isn't swaying me one iota and is an exercise in futility.

So what's your mission Nikkel? We should all go back to smoking cigarettes that are loaded with the stuff and its by-products? E-cigarettes should be banned because they have much less than cigarettes? You're not sure yourself if you should vape or not? If the latter, No. You should not. You should either a) go back to smoking or b) quit cold turkey. If you never smoked then don't start vaping.

Simple really.

Nikkel seems to think objectivity means "believing at least 50% of an incorrect argument." He keeps trying to imbue the ANTZ with far more credibility than they deserve by creating a false equivalency wherein their arguments are automatically credible simply by virtue of the fact that they exist.

 

[Talyon]

Do gooders that think they are doing good, wow haven't seen so many ANTZ on my patio since before April....

Keep trying I'm going to Vape no matter what anyone says, I'll never believe what our governments etc say about Vapeing. They let yes they allowed BT to LIE for years knowingly, and still do.....

I understand genuine concerns, however IMHO I just don't care because I know for a fact that I FEEL incredible since giving up a sanctioned habit Smoking.

Ive never been blind to the fact that Vapeing is LESS harmful.

 

[Katya]

I assume you're referring back to this?

I would believe "in the 200F range" (i.e. between 200F and 299F) if the liquid in question was water, with a boiling point of 212F. But given that the boiling point of both PG and VG is considerably higher, I'm skeptical.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what the boiling point of e-liquid is. The worst case would be pure VG at 550F, but do know that it's impractical to vape pure VG (because its viscosity is too high) so any supposedly 100% VG e-liquid is cut with at least 5% water, and that likely has a dramatic effect on the boiling point on the resulting solution.

This subject has been discussed extensively before wrt acrolein danger.

Several people tried to measure coil temps... With different results.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...l-vaporization-atomizer-temp.html#post1586581

This is the best summary of those discussions to-date. Maybe Dr. Farsalinos will provide some insight in the future:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/455394-glycerine-vapor-acrolein-issues.html

 

[DrMA]

You want real concerns? here you go:

View attachment Chemicals in flavoring and pulmonary endpoints.pdf

 

[Hulamoon]

Yes, In fact I'm quite surprised they weren't able to dump some of that in cigarettes too.

 

[Stosh]

Yes, In fact I'm quite surprised they weren't able to dump some of that in cigarettes too.

599 Ingredients added to Cigarettes

Just might be in there.....