papabogart's redux

[papabogart]

This is my second serious attempt at extraction. This is more a diary than a "how to" but comments will be tolerated. (in fact, they will be welcome--I'll need the help)

Tobaccos are all blending pipes from Pipes & Cigars.
Red Virginia
Black Cavendish
Turkish Blend
AAA Burley
McCelland Perique
(these and others will follow-some that I want are out of stock)

All were soaked in PG. Perique for 57 days, all others for 60 days.
Today was the initial straining using paper coffee filter material and the Aeropress. Learned that it really helps to lubricate the rubber plunger with PG.
Nothing exceptional to report except that the Virginia came out with froth like the froth with espresso.
All extracts being stored in sealed glass canning jars. The used tobacco was placed back in the sealed glass canning jars which were used for the soak.

I had planed on trying a CO2 technique on the used tobacco, but the pieces that fell onto the newsprint that I was using as a table cover, dried, to reveal a blonde colour. No further processing will be attempted with that tobacco as it appears to be completely spent. This surprised me somewhat. I will allow it to sit so as to collect any extract it may release.

Now I twiddle my thumbs until the equipment I ordered to do the subsequent filtering/processes arrives. (week 3 of 4-6 week delivery estimate.)

 

[PaulBHC]

Wow quite adventurous. It will certainly take some time to come up with all the blends, let them steep, and test them out. Look forward to your progress.

 

[Str8vision]

Hope you get as much enjoyment and satisfaction from extracting tobacco flavor as I have. Have fun and good luck!

 

[papabogart]

Went out to sit on the front porch for a final vape instead of going to the garage. Lo and behold, there were two of my 8 shipments of equipment, a full week earlier than expected. Surprisingly, everything I have so far seems to fit together.

This equipment, when complete, will allow me to try a number of experiments. Foremost, I want to try filtering at 5,1, and 0.5 micron.

It just struck me how meaningless this might be. Somehow, I was assuming that as filtration increased, components of the extract would proportionately decrease.
That is a false assumption.

As the equipment is on the way, I will still pursue the filtration avenue, but for the sole purpose of determining if flavor can be maintained at increased filtration rates and what, if any, effect it has on coil fouling and just possibly any observable reduction in organic or undesirable particulates. Maybe I'll fire the densitometer up, if I can find it and it's still operational.

 

[papabogart]

All of the 316 SS parts have trickled in over the past week and today the pump arrived. My OCD kicked in big time. Was so bored waiting that I used a magnifying glass and dental picks. Almost done cleaning and reassembling everything except the pump and tubing. (never took apart ball valves or a vacuum pump before-they turn out to be pretty ingenious devices) That is going to hold me up as the 100% silicone lube (food grade--you know, the stuff Subway has been feeding people for years ) is on back order. I thought this weekend I'd be able to do my filtering. Not.
Maybe I'll spend the time looking into some device to keep the juice heated during filtering. Open to ideas.

 

[Str8vision]

Vacuum assisted filtering is so fast you shouldn't need anything to help keep the juice warm. At 80Fand using 2 micron filter paper it took less than five minutes to process 90ml of PG using a low to moderate vacuum.

 

[papabogart]

Vacuum assisted filtering is so fast you shouldn't need anything to help keep the juice warm. At 80Fand using 2 micron filter paper it took less than five minutes to process 90ml of PG using a low to moderate vacuum.

Good to hear as I"ve got no clue as of yet.

Couple of questions:

What pre-filtering (step-down), if any, do you do?
And MOST importantly, Hows the flavor with the 2 micron? I know johni reprts satisfying flavor strength with a 2.5. (i.e. are you folks finding a need to increase %extract in the final product as you go to finer filtering?)
What % of extract are you sub 3 micron people mixing at?

Edit: what vacuum pressure are you using Str8vision?

 

[Str8vision]

Good to hear as I"ve got no clue as of yet.

Couple of questions:

What pre-filtering (step-down), if any, do you do?
And MOST importantly, Hows the flavor with the 2 micron? I know johni reprts satisfying flavor strength with a 2.5. (i.e. are you folks finding a need to increase %extract in the final product as you go to finer filtering?)
What % of extract are you sub 3 micron people mixing at?

Edit: what vacuum pressure are you using Str8vision?

I went from using 5 micron filter felt to 2 micron filter paper without any perceivable loss of flavor or strength. If anything, the flavor tastes better, "brighter" to me and the juice is more coil/wick friendly.

Mixing percentages stayed exactly the same. I mix flavor derived from pipe tobacco @ 20%, from cigars 30%.

I still use paper coffee filters for the first step and to "squeeze" solvent from the tobacco. I then gravity pre-filter it all through 5 micron filter felt to catch the larger particles. The final step is through 2 micron lab filter paper. I do plan on experimenting with higher levels of filtration which is why I rigged up a vacuum system.

I'm using a $24 miniature DC vacuum pump that pulls around 20" of mercury. So far it seems to be more than adequate for what I'm filtering plus it's not much bigger than a pack of cigarettes, stores easily in a drawer. Still a little noisy but nowhere near as loud as my big, heavy HVAC pump so I can use it indoors.

 

[papabogart]

Edit of first post.

Perique was 25g of tobacco soaked in 150 ml of PG.

All other tobaccos were 1oz of tobacco soaked in 180 ml.
____________
Have all supplies and vacuum/pressure pump is ready to go. Will begin filtering tonight and see how it goes.

 

[papabogart]

Finished filtration of perique. About 120+ ml of extract from the initial coffee filter/Aeropress. 2nd filtration (first tonight) 5 micron was a breeze, like s@@t though a goose. Took just a few minutes (used 2# per sq in. of pressure). Result was about 115+ ml of extract. Expended 5 micron filter fabric (Bill's recommended) had only slight discoloration, but visible particulate residue that looked like small black eggs? Set 25ml aside.

3rd filtration, 1 micron was a real pain. Filtered about 90+ml of previous extract. Dropping from 5 to 1 micron (80% )is the maximum drop I'd want to do. Took about 2 1/2 hrs. at 10-12# per sq in pressure to filter ( tried 18#+ to speed up the filtration and blew the filter out, so started over--rate is about one drop per 1-2 seconds). Expended filter showed significant discoloration, but no visible particulates. Set 30 ml aside.

4th filtration. 0.5 micron. Extract filtered was about 60 ml.. This was much less a PIA than the 1 micron. Took about 45 minutes at 8-10# per sq in pressure. Wasn't as attentive to this filtration as I was to the 1 micron. Resulting extract is about 55 ml. I'm tired so I didn't pull the filter yet, so no observations ( I'll post that tomorrow).

Initial conclusion: I was going to take photographs and post a side by side of the extracts in 30 ml Boston glass bottles, but there just isn't any discernible difference between them. We'll see what, if any, taste difference there is.

 

[Str8vision]

I'm curious as to why the 1 micron filter failed under a moderate vacuum, what type/grade is it? I use Ahlstrom grade 610 which isn't recommended for vacuum applications (low wet strength), but handles a moderate 18-20" of constant vacuum just fine. Also curious to hear your impressions on flavor differences (if any), and coil/wick performance in relation to the higher filtration levels.

 

[papabogart]

Str8,

I tested using vacuum, but the vacuum cup I had leaked vacuum, so I abandoned that and reconfigured so I could use direct air pressure. I do think vacuum is the way to go, at least for convenience and ease. I will eventually get a lab vacuum flask.

The filters that I am using are ones used for clarifying wines. I purchased mine from E.C. Kraus. They are supposedly 100% cellulose and are about 5/16" thick. I did quite a bit of research on filters and other than these, I couldn't find any sub-micron (1, 0.7, 0.45, 0.2) that were cellulose. Most were a glass product, and I am wary of using something that may be friable that isn't organic due to my ignorance of filtering such a viscous liguid under pressure. Their ratings are nominal, but from what I've read, I'm satisfied that they are reasonably accurate. Reading the vintner forum, I got a feel for how filtration affects flavor which I thought might be transferable to e-liquid. Once I have a vacuum flask and get some experience under my belt, I may try one of the "glass" material sub-micron filters, if I can overcome my OCD.

The suppliers of these filters recommend using 6# of pressure and not exceed 12-16#. They recommend filter change once back pressure reaches 20-24#. I can only guess why the #1 micron failed (began to break apart). I think that removing 80% of the particulates (going from 5 to 1 micron) in one filtration and the attendant loading of the pores in addition to the viscosity of PG subjected to the upper limits of recommended pressure all played a part in the filter"s failure.

I pulled the 0.5 micron filter and observed some small areas that were beginning to lose some integrity (some minute deformation). It's colour was much, much lighter than the expended 1 micron filter which was showing much more deformation. Neither filter displayed any observable particulates even under 30X magnification. I am going to conclude that discoloration implies filtration and differences in color relate to effectiveness/quantity of filtration. It's evident to me that the 1 micron filter did the heavy lifting by far. It appears my digital camera doesn't do macro-focus. or I'm just too dumb to figure it out.

I can't tell you how useful your and the other's posts on this site have been in my efforts. Much appreciated.

I'll do some mixing later today after I get to clean-up. I'll start with the 20% of extract ratio that you use. I'm thinking of not using any nic for the flavor difference testing. Anyone think that will skew my impressions?

 

[Kingboomer]

So how'd the turkish blend taste? I'm a fan of turkish tobaccos, and I'm curious to know if the flavor is decent.

 

[papabogart]

So how'd the turkish blend taste? I'm a fan of turkish tobaccos, and I'm curious to know if the flavor is decent.

Sorry. You'll have to wait a bit on that. Only did the perique (perique is my favorite vape, and I'm most familiar with its profile--hence, it was first up) so far and it will take some time to test it to see if there is any advantage to the sub-micron filtering. No sense doing the low filtration of the others if there is no benefit. I'll certainly be posting my impressions of taste for each extract as I do them.

Plus, I'm going to wait a bit to start to see if anyone has any input on whether I need to add nic to get a valid taste test. I'm also thinking of doing 50/50 VG/PG unless someone thinks that will be a problem. I'm normally a high VG person, but I know that involves a lot of steeping thenagain, this is just a comparison test, so all things being equal, maybe PG/VG ratios wont matter..

 

[papabogart]

I've been taste testing the Perique over the last five days using 30g coils. 6 wrap at 1.5 ohms on regulated mods at 6.5 and 7.0 watts. Both spring/spaced and compressed/contact coils. KGD cotton for wicking. All liquids were mixed 50/50 PG/VG with 20% extract. (all extracts were also tasted straight up which revealed nothing other than straight extract is not an enjoyable vape).
I did numerous side by side comparisons. The 5.0 micron filtrated liquid was used as a baseline in the first series of tests against the 1.0 micron filtrate and the 0.5 micron filtrate mixtures. An unfiltered extract was mixed and compared to the 5.0 micron liquid mixture, the 1.0 micron filtration mixture and the 0.5 filtrated mixture. Also 1.0 was matched up against the 0.5.

1. I've made a supplemental post here regarding the lack of any fermented fruit notes in any of the mixtures, including the unfiltered extract. (any help/insights from the old hands, Bill, Johni, Boomer, MFT would be greatly appreciated.)

2. A visual comparison of each of the extracts (other than the unfiltered extract mixture) at the various filtrations show no discernible difference.

3. I found no marked difference in taste intensity between the unfiltered extract, the 5.0, the 1.0 or the 0.5. I imagine a more sensitive tongue may detect otherwise.

4. There was no marked difference in flavor profile between the unfiltered, 5.0, or 1.0. If anything, as Str* suggested, there may be a slight increase in brightness with finer filtration.

5. To my great disappointment, the 0.5 filtration had issues. It was somehow just very slightly "off" in flavor. I just can't put my finger on it, but it was consistently just subtly (to my palate) different than the other levels of filtration- but enough that it is a "fail."

An interesting observation:

Just as I had set up for a 5.0 and .05 taste test comparison, my wife asked me to drive her around to stores in search of some elusive toy for a g'daughter's B'day. While she was in the stores, I stayed in the car and did testing. First was an alternating vape comparison (as it was cold I didn't have the window cracked--plus vaping outside interferes with taste testing). When she got in the car she turned up her nose, but didn't say anything. At the next stop, I tested the 0.5 exclusively to see if I could familiarize myself with its profile and identify the difference. When she got in the car this time, she asked what I was vaping. when I told her , "Perique", she stated that it smelled terrible.
At the next stop I exclusively vaped the 5.0 to see if I could detect what the difference was. When she got in this time (gift in hand btw), she asked me what I was vaping now. I inquired as to why she asked. She said that it was "Sweeter, definitely sweeter."

I don't know what to make of that as I've never, ever consider Perique to exhibit any sweetness. The only analogy that remotely describes my experience with the 0.5 filtration is that it is like a spaghetti sauce that is made without adding parsley or listening to music using a multi-channel equalizer with one of the 10 channels at 0.

6. Surprisingly, I have not seen any significant difference in gunking due to filtration. ymmv. I can definitively state that spring coils are much slower to gunk than compressed coils., but I'm sure ya'll knew that.

I'm sick of testing and I don't care if I ever have Perique again. Not for a looong time anyway.

I'm going to move on to filtering the other extracts down to 1.0 micron. I will go ahead and filter another 30ml of each at 0.5 just in case steeping will remedy the issue (I doubt it, I've seen steeping increase or decrease a note, but I can't imagine it will do anything for a note that simply isn't there)

Once, done with all of the filtration, I'll mix up some bases of the 1.0 and 0.5 and set them aside to steep and mix everything else for for flavor mixing using a 1.0 filtrate.

 

[papabogart]

First, before I forget again, the thickness of the filters are not 5/16, the are 5/32.

Filtered the Turkish last night. After my experience with the perique, my new assumption is that highly flavored or sugar content tobaccos may not play well with the 0.5 micron filter (as I've said, I will continue to filter a small sample of all tobaccos at 0.5 and see if they will mature with time), so I decided to filter either the Burley or the Turkish. Both should be low in sugar, no topping or casing, and neither is subjected to any extreme fermentation process. In deference to Kingboomer, I chose the Turkish.
110ml of extract at 1 micron filtration and 25ml at 0.5 micron. No visual difference perceived. Unlike the translucent red (like a very strongly brewed tea) of the Perique extract, these are very, very dark brown/black and opaque. In 30ml Boston glass bottles, no light passes through the extract. Very nice aroma.
Sorry Kingboomer, but these will need to sit for a few days to age before I mix juice and the juice will be allowed to steep for a couple more days before taste testing. I will update with my impressions of both the 1 and the 0.5 micron extracts.

Still have the Burley, Virginia and Cavendish to filter, but 2 down.

 

[Kingboomer]

Sounds good man, I'll keep my eyes on this post!


P.S. We need a smiley eating popcorn...

 

[papabogart]

I haven't quit or lost interest, but there will be a delay as I have cut up my left hand pretty severely.

 

[Str8vision]

I haven't quit or lost interest, but there will be a delay as I have cut up my left hand pretty severely.

Sorry to hear that, hope it heals quickly.

 

[papabogart]

Sorry to hear that, hope it heals quickly.

Thanks Str8. Stupid is as stupid does but it'll heal.