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Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by Str8vision, Apr 10, 2015.

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  1. United States

    United States Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 17, 2018
    RVA
    Bravo!! Please let us know how it turns out.
     
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  2. Lowry

    Lowry Full Member

    Nov 13, 2013
    Virginia
    Str8, I'm returning here after 5 years of M.I.A.. I've re-read this entire discussion post by post. I've got yourself and everyone else's science as a great place to start thanks to the wealth of information. While I'd hate to pull you from your "retirement" (haha)- congratulations on hitting your goal of a stockpile to see you through your lifetime, But! I have serious questions on the method with less desirable PGA.

    Where I live (Virginia) 190 proof isn't available without a license I cannot get. I'm using everclear 151- and while you had horrific results results compared to your 95%, I'm going to have to make this work. As you already know the issue I'm running into is getting most if not all of that liquid I don't need out of the concentrate. The 25% water and also evaporating the 75% PGA. Thanks to some people I know, I have access to all kinds of lab equipment and filtering tools and measurement devices that make this easy. But with what I'm trying to work with its seems darn impossible to come up with something usable.

    Without successfully doing one just yet I'm constantly thinking of how I'm going to battle the getting the water out and the alcohol without damaging the flavor of the extract or contaminating it with bacterial growth or other particulates.

    I'm using the cook process suggested, I'm filtering as suggested, I'm freeze filtering as suggested, I am Micron filtering as suggested, and letting things age as suggested. I don't know how I'm going to do a reduction and get the PGA out to a safe vaping level (what is safe? I understood 1% or less was okay), while not having a metric ton of water in there. I know PG is my friend, but I'm wary of how I'm going to do all of this.

    Pulling you out of retirement is the only chance I have of getting the Vape I'm chasing for years. I love my pipe tobacco, I love my cigars, and I love my analogs but I got to get away from them. Buying someone else's juice is not an option for my "personality". Please help. If I dropped a load of mumbo-jumbo, I'm sorry, please ask for clarification if needed.
     
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  3. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Hi @Lowry and welcome back. Unfortunately, 90% or higher ethanol content is needed in order to obtain the best results using this extraction method and I've found 190 proof PGA (95% ethanol) to be ideal. Many people around the globe have difficulty obtaining 190 proof PGA. Since you are able to obtain 151 proof PGA locally there is hope. There are two ways of converting 151 proof Everclear into 180 proof or higher. If you have access to the right lab equipment, distillation can boost the 75% ethanol content of 151 proof to 90% (180 proof) or higher pretty easily. Distillation above 90% ethanol content becomes more difficult to achieve and is limited to around 95% purity (190 proof). Molecular sieves (3a) will absorb/remove water from alcohol, it's even possible to obtain 100% ethanol (200 proof) by using them. While 3a sieves wont absorb alcohol (only water) some alcohol does cling to the surface of the sieves so there is some loss/waste and the resulting alcohol must be filtered. Using molecular sieves, 1000ml of 151 proof PGA would likely yield around 650ml of 190 proof+. The sieves must be activated (high temp baked) between uses so they're a bit of a PITA to use. YouTube has a few good videos showing each method in action but some fail to mention important details/aspects of the process.
     
  4. Lowry

    Lowry Full Member

    Nov 13, 2013
    Virginia
    Thank you for the epic response. Among the thousands of post. Do you have a product you trust in mind? And risk of particulate contaminant after the fact? Seems this is my only option.

    Also, do your extracts have any PGA % that's is acceptable after evaporation? Or is it like 10% or less is okay? The "word" is that any amount other than traces is undesired in a final product.
     
  5. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    I've used molecular sieves with good results, here's a link to the type and size I have experience with; https://www.amazon.com/HFS-Molecular-Sieve-Zeolite-8X12m/dp/B0791CD231/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1538971316&sr=1-1&keywords=Molecular+Sieve+Zeolite+3A After using the sieves I filter the purified ethanol through a high retention (1 micron) lab filter to remove the "dust".

    You might also consider getting/using a cheap proof and tralle hydrometer so you can determine your final ethanol/water ratio. https://www.amazon.com/Naruekrit-R3-XIKQ-AD0G-Proof-Tralle-Hydrometer/dp/B00FDOHMHM/ref=sr_1_9?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1538975057&sr=1-9&keywords=HYDROMETER+ALCOHOL


    It's really a matter of "taste" preference. When I first started making ethanol based extracts I enjoyed a 5% alcohol content in the mixed NET but nowadays I feel it detracts from the tobacco flavor so I keep the alcohol percentage pretty low.

    By the time you reduce the extract by 70% a significant portion of what remains (perhaps 25%) is water. This is because ethanol is highly volatile evaporating at a much greater rate than water does. When it comes time to mix the condensed extract with PG, VG and nic I allow the freshly mixed NET to sit "open air" for a few days to drive (evaporate) most of the remaining alcohol off. During this step I protect the mixed NET from airborne contaminants by covering the container (a pint canning jar) with a coffee filter held in place by a rubber band. I also use a small fan to circulate air across the open container. My final ethanol content is likely below 1% and imperceptible to me.
     
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  6. Lowry

    Lowry Full Member

    Nov 13, 2013
    Virginia
    Well, I've heard of these 3a sieves before. Never once thought to use them for food grade after filtering. This is going to be interesting haha! You're very right about limited amount of videos on drying. Since there's no real numbers out there that i can obtain with an oven- I suppose I'll have to put them on a appropriate metal pan and bake @ 400-500 Or so for 3-4 hours. Let them cool and then drop a combo of PGA in a sturdy large glass bottle and then let it sit for 12-24 hours. Filter, and then test the proof. All great information- hoping results are obtainable without disaster.
     
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  7. kbriggs

    kbriggs Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 24, 2014
    Houston, Texas
    I highly recommend leaving the oven door slightly open to let gases escape. I created a minor explosion in mine while drying sieves after their first use. It threw the oven door wide open and spit out a fireball as I was standing next to it. Rinsing off the sieves with water did not remove the embedded alcohol.
     
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  8. Lowry

    Lowry Full Member

    Nov 13, 2013
    Virginia
    Hahaha I saw this original post, while it's not exactly funny- it's epic the things we learn and are willing to do to get the results we want. Thanks for the heads up!
     
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  9. kbriggs

    kbriggs Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 24, 2014
    Houston, Texas
    The topic of molecular sieves got me curious about something. I recently started a new hobby making mead and hard apple cider. Just started my first batches so it'll be months before I know how they will turn out. Anyway, I'm using a champagne yeast (EC-1118) in the cider batch that has the capability of making 18% alcohol. I was wondering what would result if I fermented a pure sugar/water solution and then tried to dry it over and over again with the sieves. How how of an alcohol concentration could I achieve? Also curious about the legality of that considering nothing is being distilled. I have no plans to do this since (at least not for making ejuice since I have ready access to store-bought PGA) but was wondering what was possible.
     
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  10. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Interesting thought. The 3A sieves will absorb molecules that are smaller than 3 angstrom (such as water molecules) while leaving behind anything larger (such as ethanol molecules). Personally I believe you'd end up with a much higher ethanol content but don't really know how the sieves would handle other compounds present in the fermented solution. Some of those compounds might leave a sediment/scale inside the sieves when dried/reactivated diminishing their future effectiveness. Could ruin the sieves first use. ???
     
  11. Bunnykiller

    Bunnykiller ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 17, 2013
    New Orleans La.
    hey people... I got a box ( empty) of Kuba Kuba Acid cigars ( really kewl spanish cedar box)... the awesome thing is that the box was filled with about 10 oz of "cushion" tobacco to protect the cigars from damage... the tobacco is a bit dry but tastes and smells exactly the same as the cigars ( Im expecting that since its a packing protector for the cigars that its not the same quality as the actual cigar, but I find no difference between it and the cigar)... my intent is to re-humidify the "packing" and then make an extract... planning on a cold ( actually a room temp) ethanol for a week and then bring up the heat to 130ish F to bring out the goodness, filter, cold (freezer temps) store for a bit to settle out the solids and oils, filter again and then do an evaporation to condense the flavors.... ( my standard method)...

    my main question is.. has anyone tried extracting "Acid" cigars and what was the results? I really dont want to waste a fair amount of time and money ( for the Everclear) to only find out that the end results are a major disappointment.... I really like the flavor of the Kuba Kuba acid ( Drew Estates) in its natural "condition", but would prefer to have it in a vape format...

    sooo... if anyone has tried an Acid extract, I would be interested in what the results were... Im going to let the "packing tobacco" re humidify for a few days before I proceed. Once I let it get back to a suitable humidity level to continue with this "experiment" I'll wait for comments...
     
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  12. Bunnykiller

    Bunnykiller ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 17, 2013
    New Orleans La.
    pure sugar ( granulated white) has a bitter aftertaste when fermented to completion... I find corn sugar has less bitterness ( smoother quality) when fermented in this manner, but it does take a bit longer to complete the fermentation process...
    its possible but very expensive.... removing 80% of water from the ethanol mix is going to take alot of sieves or alot of recyclings of the sieves...
    and BTW, I also make mead and beer too ;) got a batch thats been aging for over 8 months now and its awesome... used raw honey and didnt pasturize... the flavor is incredible.. but the hangovers are wicked...

    if you have the ability to purchase Everclear... do so, its more cost effective
     
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  13. Bunnykiller

    Bunnykiller ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 17, 2013
    New Orleans La.
    you have a good point there... especially after the baking process... all sorts of sugars could be present and basically carbonize the exterior of the sieves rendering them useless...
     
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  14. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    I've extracted both the Kuba Kuba and Blondie cigars from Drew Estate's acid line. The infused "acid" flavor (which I believe is actually herbal) extracts very well and I enjoy the nuance. I didn't really care for the Kuba Kuba but did like the Blondie extract. The tobacco element of the Kuba Kuba didn't extract well (a bit weak) and the "acid" flavor is light when compared to the Blondie which seems to be infused with a heavier dose. I've extracted the Blondie several times and the results have been hit or miss. Some batches turn out stellar, some quite disappointing.
     
  15. Bunnykiller

    Bunnykiller ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 17, 2013
    New Orleans La.
    hmmm.. think Ill try a small batch and be frugal with the Everclear, hopefully I get a hit :)
     
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