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Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by Str8vision, Apr 10, 2015.

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  1. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Senior Member Verified Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    I want to talk about death and taxes.
    I know, I can't avoid them.
    In an effort to avoid meeting the former too soon, one might have reason to hope for a reduction on the latter .

    Back in my smoking and drinking days I accepted the contract.
    Living in a country that provides health care from taxation, the state had a valid reason to tax my unhealthy habits.
    Now I'm a born again clean living vaper should the state still have the right to tax me as before.

    When it comes to the alcohol for my NETs the answer is no.
    Duty on a litre of alcohol in the UK is £28 , making a 40% bottle of vodka £8.40 in duty for 750 ml.
    I can buy my alcohol 95% for £15 .
    Duty is not applied as it is sold for use in cooking and herbal tinctures.

    Good, we're getting somewhere.

    Now my tabacco.
    Duty is levied on smoking tabacco at £114 / Kg for pipe tabacco.
    Tabacco not sold for smoking is free of duty. In theory.
    Everyone knows the revenue men are basically the mafia without a moral code.

    A company in Wales tried to set up a business selling whole leaf tabacco which should be free of duty. Ha ha.
    No dice.

    This got me a thinking.
    What if the tabacco was made unsmokable by being sold like a herbal tincture.
    If the tabacco was sold immersed in PGA the alcohol would be undrinkable and the tabacco could not be smoked.

    I wonder how HMRC would react.
     
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  2. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    I'm in New Zealand. Vaping has been legalized here. They are raising taxes yearly on tobacco. They made a commitment to have the country smokefree by 2023 (or there abouts).
    When I brought in tobacco on the plane I had to pay rediculious tax and duty. I had a chat with the customs agent and explained I want to use it to make e liquid. I'm working with the governments commitments I said. I stopped smoking and started vaping, and should be supported on that. How can they tax me on smoking if i'm actually vaping....?
    In the end he agreed that is a grey area, and exempted me from paying tax...
     
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  3. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Senior Member Verified Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    Such understanding would never happen here.
    Since the introduction of TPD the U.K. tax authorities have as usual gold plated this EU legislation to include leaf tabacco.

    Excise Notice 2003: Tobacco Duty - the Raw Tobacco Approval Scheme - GOV.UK

    This gem makes for some pretty miserable reading.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    I do think it will happen.... in time. Right now they're all in awewonder and are shockedjealous of us, because we're getting all this attention, and they see it as their duty to play Mom an Pop.... They obviously can see how we're all exuding pleasure and we have that satisfying relief of discovering a good/better substitute to the old nasty smoke habit we used to pestify them with ...:pervy:
    I think as time rolls by and the stats roll in, they'll start coming around. They better be, cause we're not going anywhere...
    Plz see the video in General Vaping I posted. Its under the heading "Another doctor talks vape". Its the best 16 min vape video i've seen...! ;)
     
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  5. nostradadus

    nostradadus Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 6, 2014
    The War Horse Green turned out really, really nice. For those who like anise, tonquin and/or cocoa notes in their NET vape, it is a must try tobacco. The woody, suitably smokey quality of the Dark Fire Kentucky is fairly prominent, but doesn’t take over the whole scene. There is a sweet note to this extract, but it is not distracting or cloying; could be the Virginia coming to the front.

    This extract makes for a nice “tastebud reset mix” when you’re just tired of the usual.
     
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  6. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Senior Member Verified Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    20171212_134119.jpg Here's my new set up.
    It's a sous vide wand.
    It has a fan that circulates the water and heats , accurate to + or - 1°C
    The only draw back is you cannot cover the pan so you have to keep topping up the water. Over a 12 hour cook that's a couple of pints of water.
    The eagle eyed amongst you will notice a 56mm socket sitting on the jar of NET.
    It makes a good weight to stop the jar from trying to float.
    The tabacco for her maiden voyage is Dunhill Nightcap.
    Up till now my hot soaks have been most unscientific.
    My herbalist tells me constant temperature is an important factor in extraction.
    On Str8s advice I have cooked at 75°C.
    That's all folks.
     
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  7. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Very innovative setup @Upinsmoke :) Let us know how it turns out.
     
  8. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Unfortunately, death is inevitable, but the applicability of specific types of taxes is far less....certain. Some taxes are completely avoidable for those who pay attention, plan ahead and are willing to put forth a small amount of effort.

    I vape about 60ml of NET each week. If I purchased it retail, 60ml of NET would currently cost me between $25 and $60 depending on the vendor (brand). If I lived in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, DC, Kansas, Alaska, Illinois, California or one of an increasing number of U.S. states/cities that have imposed special vaping taxes, I would end up paying -far more- than the price listed on vendor's websites. In Minnesota (95% wholesale vape tax) I'd end up spending between $40 and $100 dollars for a weeks worth (60ml) of NET. In Chicago Illinois ($0.55 per ml tax) it'd cost between $60 and $92 for the same 60ml. It doesn't stop there, the party hasn't even started yet. Each year dozens of state and local governments introduce new proposed vape taxes. Some pass and some don't but those that don't simply try again the next year and will continue doing so until they finally succeed. In the U.S., for those currently untaxed it's not a matter of if, but "when". Fortunately, I make my own NET. It costs me about $1.70 to make 60ml @ 8mg. Because I make my own I can avoid paying draconian vape taxes entirely. True, one third of my cost to make NET is alcohol and tobacco taxes but I'll gladly pay the $0.60 in alcohol and tobacco taxes to avoid paying $20 to $50 more in special vape taxes each week. I get the added benefit of avoiding retail NET's high profit margins, a win-win situation.

    I vape 3 liters of NET each year. It costs me around $100 to make a years worth, $30 of that is alcohol and tobacco taxes. If I purchased that much NET from retail vendors and had to pay special vape taxes It would cost me several thousand dollars each year. Then there's the FDA. Imagine what the retail price of juice will be if/when the FDA's deeming regulations finally kick in. The ridiculous cost of compliance will simply be passed on to consumers by way of higher retail prices. Don't forget that any price increase will itself be subject to special vape taxes which in many cases will effectively double the increase. Financial impact of the deeming regulations combined with ever increasing/expanding vape taxes could usher in juice prices over $2 per ml while low volume sellers (like NETs) might become casualties and disappear from the marketplace. It's a slow motion train wreck that actually began in 2007.

    This is why back in 2012 (when I started vaping) I set out to learn how to make my own NETs. I realized that only by becoming the manufacturer could I remove government from the equation. No matter what rules, taxes or restrictions the government might impose, my costs (and availability) will remain the same, locked in at $100 per year. By paying attention, planning ahead and taking action I've removed the government's ability to extort $$$ from me just because I chose to vape instead of smoke. Instead of handing them thousands of dollars each year I've substituted a one finger salute and a rather smirky grin. They're welcome to as much of that as they might want. ;)
     
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  9. yourgurnard

    yourgurnard Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 3, 2015
    London
    ...Quoting Meself (saves typing!!!)...
    I'm really gonna rip into My s-in-l when I see Him at Christmas!....90 pc?!..Yeah right!
    2 days in the freezer & My extract's slush!!!! To be fair, a lot of cr4p has settled out but it should n't have frozen! 6 months!!!! :-x :censored:
     
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  10. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    If there's slush there's lots of water present. Sounds like he may have confused 90 proof with being 90%?

    When I performed the extraction experiment using 151 proof PGA (25% water) the extract had no visible ice crystals even at -20F. I store my wife's 80 proof Absolut Citron Vodka in the freezer and it develops a lot of ice crystals at those temperatures.
     
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  11. happy valley

    happy valley Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 7, 2016
    WMass
    Season greetings fellow NET mixers! Been busy but do pop in from time to time.Thanks to all for the inspiration and showing the way. Merry Christmas 2017!
     
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  12. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    Well I eventually received my molucular sieves I ordered from China. (very reasonably priced I might add). After about a month wait, I emailed them and they promptly sent me another with a tracking number...they both arrived within a week. I only used 500g.
    I had 1 liter of Ethanol at 54%.
    I washed the 500g of sieves properly and dried it overnight. Next day I heated the oven to 250C and left it for 2 hrs. The first soaking (left it overnight) pushed it up to 60%, but it left me with about 600ml ethanol left.
    I left the sieves in the sun for a day and baked it again as above. The next soaking only pushed it up to 64%, but left me with only 400ml ethanol. Its cloudy as hell to. There is a layer of sediment on the bottom. My logic told me to abandon the whole thing because IF i'm somehow lucky and get to 90%, i'll just have a sludge left...
    That left me with the conclusion that the sieves aren't up to standard. The question left is how do one know the difference between good and not good molucular sieves?
    I since got hold of 92% and the guy says if can push it up to 95+%, so the exitement is once again building.
     
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  13. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    Oh this is the stuff I used..
    20180209_084123.jpg
     
  14. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    When I used 500g of molecular sieves on 1.5 liters of 190 proof PGA (95% ethanol) I lost about 110ml of liquid total, around 70ml of that was the water I removed and perhaps 10ml was lost during filtration (1 micron).

    I Don't think the sieves you have are usable, sounds like they're absorbing a lot of the ethanol too which indicates an inconsistent pore size. Quality matters because if the pore size of the sieves is inconsistent (low quality sieves) with some pores being larger than 3A, in addition to water they can also absorb/hold some of the ethanol. A consistent 3A pore size is critical because it allows the smaller water molecules to enter but not the larger ethanol molecules, the only ethanol loss should be what clings to the surface of the sieves.

    Good to hear you have a source for 92% or 95% ethanol, that should be adequate for the intended purpose. I've tried 100% ethanol and personally didn't find it any better than 95% ethanol for extracting tobacco. ;)
     
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  15. DanR

    DanR Full Member

    Mar 28, 2018
    Someplace in SC

    In one way I completely understand what your doing, but in other ways I don't. What I'm looking for is this: Get some tobacco leaves, taking out what ever I can, to the point of being able to vape it. However, the interesting part is, I only vape 3mg of nic, and would love to know how to add flavor to the mix. Can you help? Should also make a video and post it in youtube step by step.
     
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  16. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    That would be fantastic :thumb:
     
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  17. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Senior Member Verified Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    Watch out PewDiePie Str8vision is coming for ya !:)
     
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  18. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    I've actually thought about making a step-by-step how-to video but I don't really have the gear needed to do so. I do think it'd be easier to learn extraction techniques by watching an instructional video rather than just reading about it.

    What parts do you need help understanding? Also, you can PM me for assistance or clarification/explanations, many people do.
     
  19. thedesbois

    thedesbois Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 19, 2012
    Montreal, Canada
    Hello all!

    I'm new to this thread. Read parts of it. Enough to understand Str8vision's ever evolving method. I think. :)

    Did my first extraction using heated ethanol. Only step I was not aware of was the newly added soaking period prior to the 12 hrs heat extraction. Oh well.

    Did a Romeo y Julieta Romeo #! cigar. 8 g of tobacco. Didn't reduce since I was doing such a small batch. Results are amazing! I had done an extract with the very same cigar 3 years ago (Crockpot maceration in VG, rough filtration with coffee filters and no winterization/freeze filtering). Tasted good but lacked a bit of punch. Gunked the coils like nothing I've ever vaped.

    Now with the same cigar using heated ethanol process... I got a much better extract. Same general taste but with more "punch" for lack of a better word. And coil gunk? OMFG! Less than most custards synthetic juices!

    Did a 2nd one with pipe tobacco. Mac Baren Vanilla Cream. Same exact process. Smells good, inhale is ok but exhale just tastes like... a cigarette. Nothing special. I'm guessing it's the tobacco. Will let it age and see.

    Just tried another adapted technique. Same Mac Baren. Did a soaking for one hour in magnetic stirred with heat at 70C. Then moved this in Ultrasonic bath at 70C. Did a one hour ultrasonic on this one instead of the 12 hours heat only. Ultrasonic bath is a 1L 50W @ 40Khz. God the reagent bottle was hot! Way above 70C. Probably above the boiling temperature of ethanol. When I opened it, it kinda fizzed like a shaken soda bottle. And some gas escaped. So I guess part of the 60 minutes where done above ethanol boiling temperature and under some pressure. Coarse filtering is done and extract is now in freezer for 3 days. Will report back if you guys are interested. :D
     
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  20. DanR

    DanR Full Member

    Mar 28, 2018
    Someplace in SC
    There is a video now on youtube on how to do the cold method. Tomorrow (I hope) to get part 2 up on how to strain the stuff, as I've already done one jar.

    Here is the link to it.
     
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