Paranormal Activity??

[eHuman]

Food for thought:

The word "paranormal" (from dictionary means "Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation") is the term most used (typically non-believers) associated with the unexplainable realm.

Christian's have an explanation of this called the "Spiritual" realm.
We are told that God is spirit, that angels (though can manifest themselves in the flesh), are spirit, both fallen and Holy.

We are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Abraham's Bosom under the Old Covenant and Heaven under the New Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant the wicked went to hell (not the final resting place) which was across a great chasm from Abraham's Bosom. Now, under the New Covenant they remain there awaiting the great White Throne judgment.

Simple logic statement:
If all of the souls of men go to either Heaven or Hell upon physical death, and;
Holy and Fallen Angels are both of the Spirit realm, and:
Angels are ministering Spirits sent to minister to those who will one day inherit salvation, and:
Satan and those under his command come to kill, steal, and destroy. To bring fear and doubt, and;
There is some spooky stuff that is often discernably evil going on that is "beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation", then;

Who do you think is behind the typical paranormal activities that cause us to seek the help of mediums (which we are told is a sin)?

 

[Southern Gent]

Food for thought:

The word "paranormal" (from dictionary means "Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation") is the term most used (typically non-believers) associated with the unexplainable realm.

Christian's have an explanation of this called the "Spiritual" realm.
We are told that God is spirit, that angels (though can manifest themselves in the flesh), are spirit, both fallen and Holy.

We are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Abraham's Bosom under the Old Covenant and Heaven under the New Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant the wicked went to hell (not the final resting place) which was across a great chasm from Abraham's Bosom. Now, under the New Covenant they remain there awaiting the great White Throne judgment.

Simple logic statement:
If all of the souls of men go to either Heaven or Hell upon physical death, and;
Holy and Fallen Angels are both of the Spirit realm, and:
Angels are ministering Spirits sent to minister to those who will one day inherit salvation, and:
Satan and those under his command come to kill, steal, and destroy. To bring fear and doubt, and;
There is some spooky stuff that is often discernably evil going on that is "beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation", then;

Who do you think is behind the typical paranormal activities that cause us to seek the help of mediums (which we are told is a sin)?

Now we're gittin' down to the nitty gritty!! Thank you

 

[eHuman]

I was pretty sure that I knew what you were looking for, but one of my downfalls is speaking up before others have a chance to think for themsleves. So I set it aside for a day before addressing it.

2 Tim 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[HyOnLyph]

I'll throw my $0.02 in. I believe Angelic and demonic activity exists. I also think there are times when we can sense or "see" across the spiritual dimensions. If we can see across dimensions, then why not time. (time being one of the dimensions) I think that it is possible that ghosts... i.e. the ghost of someone who hangs around in a home etc.... is quite possibly a time rift and we can see them moving about in their time. Just a thought!

Whatever it is... I don't think it is anything to be afraid of. I don't believe it has any power over me. Ever! Jesus took care of that.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

I'll throw my $0.02 in. I believe Angelic and demonic activity exists. I also think there are times when we can sense or "see" across the spiritual dimensions. If we can see across dimensions, then why not time. (time being one of the dimensions) I think that it is possible that ghosts... i.e. the ghost of someone who hangs around in a home etc.... is quite possibly a time rift and we can see them moving about in their time. Just a thought!

Whatever it is... I don't think it is anything to be afraid of. I don't believe it has any power over me. Ever! Jesus took care of that.

Although I agree with eHuman above, I have to say that I've had similar thoughts as yours. My wife had a friend that lived in a very old house. She said it was as if another family lived in the house with them. Around 6 every day, it sounded like someone would come in. Occasionally, their TV would turn on, right after it sounded like someone came in... it would also turn off around 10 every night. Footsteps could be heard upstairs, water running, toilets flushing... pots banging around in the kitchen and lights going off and on as if someone was moving from room to room. She said it was as if whoever used to live in the house was still living there.

I've wondered if some paranormal activity is a result of some frequencies getting crossed. Similar to how you can turn the dial on a radio and hear more than one station at a time because the signal isn't clear. Or how (before cable and digital TV) you could see the shadow of the show from one channel while watching another. Maybe some areas in the world have their "stations" crossed and we're seeing residual images/sounds from another "channel" long gone (from our perspective in time anyway).

 

[LisaLisa]

Demon activity is real. Both my mother and I know that my father was possessed by a demon. Posession usually isn't like the stuff you see in the movies with their head spinning around, it's nothing like that. It's a total and complete transformation of the personality of a person from good to evil. That happened to my father, and it was instantaneous. In one weekend, he completely changed, we felt like we were living with an evil stranger, and that's what he was. Strange "supernatural" things happened in our house at the same time, and I was a victim of hideous demonic dreams as a child. So bad that I was terrified to sleep. We never even saw horror movies or things like that back then, so these images did not come from my own mind. I'm 100% sure of that. It was a terrible childhood living in a house with demons that constantly tried to attack and get ahold of my mother and I.

I can tell you, this stuff is for real. I won't get into the details, but I lived with one of "them" and was powerless to stop it as a child, and not knowing Jesus. Scary stuff.

 

[eHuman]

I'll throw my $0.02 in. I believe Angelic and demonic activity exists. I also think there are times when we can sense or "see" across the spiritual dimensions. If we can see across dimensions, then why not time. (time being one of the dimensions) I think that it is possible that ghosts... i.e. the ghost of someone who hangs around in a home etc.... is quite possibly a time rift and we can see them moving about in their time. Just a thought!

Whatever it is... I don't think it is anything to be afraid of. I don't believe it has any power over me. Ever! Jesus took care of that.

I hear you but:
The Bible teaches that we can see (in part) into the spiritual realm, but does not teach about seeing into the future or past without direct revelation from God. To do so is concidered "divination" by "spiritual mediums" not of God.

My rhetorical question (and Country Gent's OP) left Satan ultimately responsible for paranormal activity.

Your conclusion is spot on, but in your process (IMO) you leave room for "another explanation" besides God or Satan. I.E. us and our ability to "see" the past. God gives true Spiritual gifts and Satan gives counterfeight gifts. With what and who the Bible attribute the powers of divination to, we should be able to comfortably rule out any other option as it is plainly stated.

Many times we take what we feel or reason, and lacking anything else to explain what we see, we proclaim to know "how a thing must or might be". Satan uses and manipulates our emotions and reasoning to draw us to anything but the truth. God gave His Word so that we would not have to guess, but so that we could know.

Our journey is to come to know what the truth is, and to not walk in what we feel is right, but what we know is right. (Let truth reign over our feelings and emotions).

Many times I feel like doing what I know is not right.
How many of you have had an evil thought flash across your mind of something that you would never do? Like punch someone you love for no reason, or push then down the stairs?
The world listens to the wrong voices. This is why there is evil manifested in the world. I might even add, becasue of paranormal activity.

 

[chimney55]

Food for thought:

The word "paranormal" (from dictionary means "Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation") is the term most used (typically non-believers) associated with the unexplainable realm.

Christian's have an explanation of this called the "Spiritual" realm.
We are told that God is spirit, that angels (though can manifest themselves in the flesh), are spirit, both fallen and Holy.

We are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Abraham's Bosom under the Old Covenant and Heaven under the New Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant the wicked went to hell (not the final resting place) which was across a great chasm from Abraham's Bosom. Now, under the New Covenant they remain there awaiting the great White Throne judgment.

Simple logic statement:
If all of the souls of men go to either Heaven or Hell upon physical death, and;
Holy and Fallen Angels are both of the Spirit realm, and:
Angels are ministering Spirits sent to minister to those who will one day inherit salvation, and:
Satan and those under his command come to kill, steal, and destroy. To bring fear and doubt, and;
There is some spooky stuff that is often discernably evil going on that is "beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation", then;

Who do you think is behind the typical paranormal activities that cause us to seek the help of mediums (which we are told is a sin)?

Well said!

 

[Southern Gent]

I hear you but:
The Bible teaches that we can see (in part) into the spiritual realm, but does not teach about seeing into the future or past without direct revelation from God. To do so is concidered "divination" by "spiritual mediums" not of God.

My rhetorical question (and Country Gent's OP) left Satan ultimately responsible for paranormal activity.

Your conclusion is spot on, but in your process (IMO) you leave room for "another explanation" besides God or Satan. I.E. us and our ability to "see" the past. God gives true Spiritual gifts and Satan gives counterfeight gifts. With what and who the Bible attribute the powers of divination to, we should be able to comfortably rule out any other option as it is plainly stated.

Many times we take what we feel or reason, and lacking anything else to explain what we see, we proclaim to know "how a thing must or might be". Satan uses and manipulates our emotions and reasoning to draw us to anything but the truth. God gave His Word so that we would not have to guess, but so that we could know.

Our journey is to come to know what the truth is, and to not walk in what we feel is right, but what we know is right. (Let truth reign over our feelings and emotions).

Many times I feel like doing what I know is not right.
How many of you have had an evil thought flash across your mind of something that you would never do? Like punch someone you love for no reason, or push then down the stairs?
The world listens to the wrong voices. This is why there is evil manifested in the world. I might even add, becasue of paranormal activity.

 

[HyOnLyph]

I hear you but:
The Bible teaches that we can see (in part) into the spiritual realm, but does not teach about seeing into the future or past without direct revelation from God. To do so is concidered "divination" by "spiritual mediums" not of God.

My rhetorical question (and Country Gent's OP) left Satan ultimately responsible for paranormal activity.

Your conclusion is spot on, but in your process (IMO) you leave room for "another explanation" besides God or Satan. I.E. us and our ability to "see" the past. God gives true Spiritual gifts and Satan gives counterfeight gifts. With what and who the Bible attribute the powers of divination to, we should be able to comfortably rule out any other option as it is plainly stated.

Many times we take what we feel or reason, and lacking anything else to explain what we see, we proclaim to know "how a thing must or might be". Satan uses and manipulates our emotions and reasoning to draw us to anything but the truth. God gave His Word so that we would not have to guess, but so that we could know.

Our journey is to come to know what the truth is, and to not walk in what we feel is right, but what we know is right. (Let truth reign over our feelings and emotions).

Many times I feel like doing what I know is not right.
How many of you have had an evil thought flash across your mind of something that you would never do? Like punch someone you love for no reason, or push then down the stairs?
The world listens to the wrong voices. This is why there is evil manifested in the world. I might even add, becasue of paranormal activity.

hehe I don't worry too much about my "process" unless I'm discussing or arguing something as fact. Why wouldn't I leave room for another explanation? I'm not stating my position as fact, only as a possibility. Are you suggesting that I place myself as some purveyor of absolutes? Not my job. I will yield to the Holy Spirit on that account. He's plenty able to handle it and doesn't need me to interfere with that.

I don't believe that simply because the Bible doesn't discuss something, it's impossible to be of value. I'm not talking about "seeing" into the future. We're not discussing prophecy. I'm talking about inter-dimensional viewing either by accident or design (in human English terms... In God's terms it's all by design isn't it?). Time is simply one of potentially many dimensions. If I can slip into one, why not the other. If the Bible tells me I can view the spiritual dimension, then I wouldn't nit-pick about the possibility of others.

I do not subscribe to the opinion that everything is either God or Satan unless you are referring to the most general sense. And in the absolute most general sense, I'd have to say that everything is God. He created it all, controls it all, knows it all and turns it all together for good. Satan may have rebelled against God but we act as if God had no idea it was going to happen. We act as if God does not know everything the devil was going to do and is going to do. If God isn't surprised by the devil's activity, why should I be? If God isn't worried, why should I be? I don't give Satan any credibility for anything except to acknowledge that he is a liar.

On occasion, I've confronted demons and those who where possessed. And they have no power except to lie and try to convince others that they are something they are not. They leave when told, come back when invited, often with more friends. If we fear them, they feed off of that. If we fear or act as if we are something we are not, or feel guilt we have no business feeling, they will play it against you in your own head until you oppose yourself. To paraphrase a friend's statement.."more demons have left because they were starved out than because they were cast out".

I also think your determination that Satan is responsible for all paranormal activity is very short-sighted. I've seen and been visited by angels. That could easily be considered paranormal. And yet it was not Satanic influence that caused it. Elisha knew the angels were backing him and when he asked God to open the eyes of the young man, he was able to see a frequency or spectrum that the human eye normally can't see. They were always there whether anyone could see them or not. He simple had his "eyes opened" or "adjusted". That could be considered paranormal... and yet it wasn't demonic.

We are talking about all energy and all matter being made up of the same "building blocks". It is simply a matter of frequencies and spectrums. A dog can hear frequencies that I can't. My son can hear a dog whistle... do we call that paranormal? In the basic sense... yes.

I believe that through Christ, "in the Spirit", we are able to do all things. That may mean hearing a frequency that I normally don't hear (when angels join in a worship service) or seeing a spectrum I normally don't see. Frequenty, discernment comes at the time we view or hear something. Of course we "know" based on our understanding of God's word to us. And as we all know, our knowing (interpretation) is not always accurate. Discernment comes by the Spirit. Why judge it all in a neat little box? Why not trust the Holy Spirit to give discernment and truth?

 

[Jason_in_nc]

you got that frequency thing from me! ;-)

I'm not thinking that we're seeing backward or forward in time so much as seeing "echos" of things that have happened just as someone in space could pick up radio or tv signals that are long gone.

From my experience/investigation, there are two types of paranormal activity. Most is very passive. People see an image or hear things that aren't interacting with them personally. These are the specific instances where I wonder if we're not picking up residual "signals".

Then there are the Ghost Hunters type of active activity where there seems to be some sort of interaction with people. Feelings of heat or cold, touch, movement or sounds that is reactionary, or electronic voice phenomenon. THOSE types of interactions are most CERTAINLY demonic. There is something actually "at work". Very different from just seeing a faded out image of someone walking up the stairs.

Again, just speculation on my part.

 

[HyOnLyph]

you got that frequency thing from me! ;-).

hahaha... yeah cuz you were the first one that ever thought of it.
(sorry but I think I stole that from someone else.... in any case... I certainly stole it!)

We must have been thinking alike. "Echos" ... good discription.

added:
Oh with regards to the Ghost Hunters show... I think it might be possible that the show is more demonic than the manifestations. The purpose of the show is to instill and feed off of fear. It is filmed, produced and edited in order to make people afraid and to play off of previous fears.

 

[lmrasch]

My husband’s work crew had an encounter with a spiritual being that was in a house they were renting while doing out of town work. Various people on the crew had seen this spirit in that house on numerous occasions over a span of several months...they were FREAKED! We’re talking tough construction guys here, and some of their wives. My husband came for a visit on the job, stayed in the house and the spirit came into his room that night, he simply told it to leave in the name of Jesus (no shouting, no conversations, simply leave in the name of Jesus) and it left...they never had an occurrence after that.

Seems to me that if this was just seeing into another dimension that the name Jesus would have had no effect, it simply would have continued...but something about that NAME sent the spirit packing.....Seems the “spirit” was subject to the name of Jesus...

Ephesians 6 (Amplified)
12) For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

^ This ^ seems to be my mantra lately

 

[HyOnLyph]

My husband’s work crew had an encounter with a spiritual being that was in a house they were renting while doing out of town work. Various people on the crew had seen this spirit in that house on numerous occasions over a span of several months...they were FREAKED! We’re talking tough construction guys here, and some of their wives. My husband came for a visit on the job, stayed in the house and the spirit came into his room that night, he simply told it to leave in the name of Jesus (no shouting, no conversations, simply leave in the name of Jesus) and it left...they never had an occurrence after that.

Seems to me that if this was just seeing into another dimension that the name Jesus would have had no effect, it simply would have continued...but something about that NAME sent the spirit packing.....Seems the “spirit” was subject to the name of Jesus...

Ephesians 6 (Amplified)
12) For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

^ This ^ seems to be my mantra lately

To clarify, I'm not disputing that spirit entities are real. And I'm not saying that it is "just seeing". It is many times, interacting. Like your husband showed, it's a matter of not being afraid... knowing who you are in Christ and who has your back. And more than anything... knowing that it isn't about you and ALL about Jesus. Every entity no matter what dimension or age or time is subject to the name of Jesus. Without Christ we haven't a leg to stand on. If someone doesn't know Jesus and the authority of Christ, they have every reason to be afraid.

God is eternal. Eternity is outside of our temporal existence. If you will.... looking down on the time-line. Imagine eternity as a vast position. Imagine time or the time-line (past, present and future) is simply a line running through a small part of Eternity. Imagine looking down on the time-line as a whole. IF you can imagine that... you can see how past, present and future can be observed as one NOW. To God we are all NOW. Somewhere on the time-line, but to Him, who is looking upon it, it is all now. And he's in control of it all.

Now imagine that that line is only one of however-many dimensions (and existences) all interacting with each other... crossing at various intersections or moving simultaneously. One can see how it is simply a matter of vision. A matter of being tuned to the frequency of other dimensions.

By the way, when we pray... things happen. We set in motion things into other dimensions and frequently those dimensions move and effect our dimension in a positive way. In Christianese... we effect the spirit realm. We may not see it, but our frequency... our prayers... effect other frequencies which may become tuned to our prayers. Much the way a tuning fork held close to a certain string on a guitar can set in motion that string to vibrate and give off sound... all without actually physically touching it. (and yet in a real sense, touching because of the frequencies interacting) That frequency may resonate throughout eternity and effect our present and our future. I'm not saying this is absolute... but it certainly is a possibility and explains a lot. And what an amazing statement about the complexity and simplicity of HIS creation. God's exisence is so far beyond our own and He has made us one with Him.

 

[eHuman]

Some clarification:

Why wouldn't I leave room for another explanation?
I don't believe that simply because the Bible doesn't discuss something, it's impossible to be of value.

My point was, the Bible does explain it. The comment about "no specifice reference" to seeing into the past was only of one of the pieces of evidense, not THE evidence. But by either not knowing, or not understanding, or believing that the Bible explains it, we open up the "need" for another explanation.

I think the main reason Southern Gent asked the question in the way that he did was because he understands that it is taught that way, it was rhetorical in order to strike up discussion.

I also think your determination that Satan is responsible for all paranormal activity is very short-sighted. I've seen and been visited by angels.

You may not have caught that I set aside "that type" as from God, and focused on where the "non Holy" visitations come from.

We are talking about all energy and all matter being made up of the same "building blocks". It is simply a matter of frequencies and spectrums

I may have missed that in previous posts, but "I" haven't commented on that yet.

I understand that statement as a non intentional catagorical shift. (example, the car is blue therefore all things that are blue are cars). (Example, ghosts are "discernable" so they can be explained by "science").

IMO, what you are talking about there, you "see" as science's ability to explain.

Science:
1. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation, reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.
2. the systematic study of the nature and behaviour of the material and physical universe, based on observation, experiment, and measurement, and the formulation of laws to describe these facts in general terms.

We must be able to observe a thing with a set of variables, circumstances and conditions and expect an exact repeatable and predictable result.

pseudo-science: (word origin, a pretended or mistaken science)
1. any of various methods, theories, or systems, as astrology, psychokinesis, or clairvoyance, considered as having no scientific basis.
2. a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific

When attempting to apply science to things of the spirit we error.
My contention is that at best (to the world) ghosts are mere pseudo-science. To those who study the Bible, there is much taught n the subject.

Science is the art and method for explaining the things and relationships that we see of all physical aspect of what God has left in His creation for us to examine.

There are many things that we don't know that can and will one day be explained by good solid science.

There are many things that will never be able to be proven with science but are still solid and dependable truth.

Satan (no I don't believe that he surprises God as God knew every "thought that every being would almost but not quite think" from before He created anything) is on a pretty long leash and is allowed to do much that is not in line with the Spirit of God.

One of Satan's attributes is to exalt knowlege above God. I.E. what God said isn't right, this is. Or, did God really say?

2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

I believe that through Christ, "in the Spirit", we are able to do all things. That may mean hearing a frequency that I normally don't hear (when angels join in a worship service) or seeing a spectrum I normally don't see.

We just need to be sure, not feel or hope or think which of those that we accredit to God. Some things we "think we see" and accredit to God, are not in reality. (Other than the obvious trump of God ultimately allows.)

If you see an angel and it really is an angel then make no mistake it was God who ordained that you see it.
If it really wasn't an angel and you knew it wasn't, then it may be easy to cause you to run from his advice. But Satan masquarades as light -
So If it really wasn't an angel but you didn't know it, then only the wisdom and knowledge of God found in His word will equip you to compare it to and determine what is right.
Paul said even if an angel somes and tells you adifferent gospel account may he be cursed.

Wisdom over what these things are have been given by God in the Bible just waiting to be discovered.

 

[HyOnLyph]

Some clarification:



My point was, the Bible does explain it. The comment about "no specifice reference" to seeing into the past was only of one of the pieces of evidense, not THE evidence. But by either not knowing, or not understanding, or believing that the Bible explains it, we open up the "need" for another explanation.

I think the main reason Southern Gent asked the question in the way that he did was because he understands that it is taught that way, it was rhetorical in order to strike up discussion.


You may not have caught that I set aside "that type" as from God, and focused on where the "non Holy" visitations come from.


I may have missed that in previous posts, but "I" haven't commented on that yet.

I understand that statement as a non intentional catagorical shift. (example, the car is blue therefore all things that are blue are cars). (Example, ghosts are "discernable" so they can be explained by "science").

IMO, what you are talking about there, you "see" as science's ability to explain.

Science:
1. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation, reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.
2. the systematic study of the nature and behaviour of the material and physical universe, based on observation, experiment, and measurement, and the formulation of laws to describe these facts in general terms.

We must be able to observe a thing with a set of variables, circumstances and conditions and expect an exact repeatable and predictable result.

pseudo-science: (word origin, a pretended or mistaken science)
1. any of various methods, theories, or systems, as astrology, psychokinesis, or clairvoyance, considered as having no scientific basis.
2. a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific

When attempting to apply science to things of the spirit we error.
My contention is that at best (to the world) ghosts are mere pseudo-science. To those who study the Bible, there is much taught n the subject.

Science is the art and method for explaining the things and relationships that we see of all physical aspect of what God has left in His creation for us to examine.

There are many things that we don't know that can and will one day be explained by good solid science.

There are many things that will never be able to be proven with science but are still solid and dependable truth.

Satan (no I don't believe that he surprises God as God knew every "thought that every being would almost but not quite think" from before He created anything) is on a pretty long leash and is allowed to do much that is not in line with the Spirit of God.

One of Satan's attributes is to exalt knowlege above God. I.E. what God said isn't right, this is. Or, did God really say?

2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,



We just need to be sure, not feel or hope or think which of those that we accredit to God. Some things we "think we see" and accredit to God, are not in reality. (Other than the obvious trump of God ultimately allows.)

If you see an angel and it really is an angel then make no mistake it was God who ordained that you see it.
If it really wasn't an angel and you knew it wasn't, then it may be easy to cause you to run from his advice. But Satan masquarades as light -
So If it really wasn't an angel but you didn't know it, then only the wisdom and knowledge of God found in His word will equip you to compare it to and determine what is right.
Paul said even if an angel somes and tells you adifferent gospel account may he be cursed.

Wisdom over what these things are have been given by God in the Bible just waiting to be discovered.

HUH? I'm sorry but I'm limited in my ability to follow that. I'm sure you understand. Perhaps if you approached it in a simpler way.

 

[eHuman]

My main point was that the Bible does explain the supernatural so as not to need another explanation.

That I agree "Holy" manifestations happen but we accredt those to God (agreeably)
Unholy manifestations must come the fallen.
We've yet to agree on whether there are neutral manifestations to begin with, I say not.

Science can't explain the spirit realm. Even if we can see or discern pieces of it, we can't use science to quantify it. I.E. the frequencies or vibrations (physical) to explain the Spiritual (God term) or supernatural (world term).

Science currently believes that it can prove that we actually have 10 dimensions that we live in but only 3 we can see and a 4th (time) that we can readily discern.

Two Jewish mathmeticians in the early 1900s (years before, when science thought that there were only 3 dimensions), discovered solely from the study of the book of Genesis that there "had to be" 10 dimensions.

Both modern science and those Jewish mathmeticians believe that the human senses can only directly observe 3 dimensions.

Two realms (physical and spiritual), ten dimensions.
To reason from the physical realm that "one can sometimes see into a scientifically unseeable dimensoin", is not reasonable, or able to be proven scientifically.
But we do see so what then? As it is a non physical phenominon, it must be viewed in the only other realm - the Spiritual realm, that happens to see in all 10 dimensions.

I.E. I don't believe that I'm being unreasonable or incomplete in my conclusions, I've viewed them from both physical and spiritual perspectives and left what "I felt" out of the picture.

 

[lmrasch]

To clarify, I'm not disputing that spirit entities are real. And I'm not saying that it is "just seeing". It is many times, interacting. Like your husband showed, it's a matter of not being afraid... knowing who you are in Christ and who has your back. And more than anything... knowing that it isn't about you and ALL about Jesus. Every entity no matter what dimension or age or time is subject to the name of Jesus. Without Christ we haven't a leg to stand on. If someone doesn't know Jesus and the authority of Christ, they have every reason to be afraid.

God is eternal. Eternity is outside of our temporal existence. If you will.... looking down on the time-line. Imagine eternity as a vast position. Imagine time or the time-line (past, present and future) is simply a line running through a small part of Eternity. Imagine looking down on the time-line as a whole. IF you can imagine that... you can see how past, present and future can be observed as one NOW. To God we are all NOW. Somewhere on the time-line, but to Him, who is looking upon it, it is all now. And he's in control of it all.

Now imagine that that line is only one of however-many dimensions (and existences) all interacting with each other... crossing at various intersections or moving simultaneously. One can see how it is simply a matter of vision. A matter of being tuned to the frequency of other dimensions.

By the way, when we pray... things happen. We set in motion things into other dimensions and frequently those dimensions move and effect our dimension in a positive way. In Christianese... we effect the spirit realm. We may not see it, but our frequency... our prayers... effect other frequencies which may become tuned to our prayers. Much the way a tuning fork held close to a certain string on a guitar can set in motion that string to vibrate and give off sound... all without actually physically touching it. (and yet in a real sense, touching because of the frequencies interacting) That frequency may resonate throughout eternity and effect our present and our future. I'm not saying this is absolute... but it certainly is a possibility and explains a lot. And what an amazing statement about the complexity and simplicity of HIS creation. God's exisence is so far beyond our own and He has made us one with Him.

Haha..thanks Hy...waaaaaaaaaaay over my head, lol!

I just know not to dabble, dabble or dabble in things that are not in my realm of understanding...I have to give it to God and be done with it. If I start thinking about all the wonderful people that can speak to spirits in the beyond and why God asks me not to, then I start thinking why not? When I start thinking of why not, they're only doing good, then I am questioning the One who said not to and am not walking in faith but am being distracted by a very crafty individual who wants nothing else but to steal, kill and destroy....that being my very soul.

Maybe there are things God simply doesn't want us to know....I know Saul chose the path of trying to get an answer from someone other than God and his demise was not a pleasant one.

This is a very interesting thread tho....lol!

 

[eHuman]

HUH? I'm sorry but I'm limited in my ability to follow that. I'm sure you understand. Perhaps if you approached it in a simpler way.

Uh yah I just re-read that, I'm suprised I followed it. Not my best explanation lol.

 

[HyOnLyph]

My main point was that the Bible does explain the supernatural so as not to need another explanation.

I agree that we don't "need" another explanation. I don't think we "need" any explanation at all. I don't agree that the Bible gives a clear explanation that encompasses the whole subject.

That I agree "Holy" manifestations happen but we accredt those to God (agreeably)
Unholy manifestations must come the fallen.

Why must we judge them all as one or the other? I don't agree that all manifestations "must" be one or the other. Is it not feasible that there are times when people can "see" the unexplainable and it is simply an experience that allows us to marvel at the magnitude of Gods creation? Isn't it equally feasible or at least possible that ALL manifestations "must" be "good" since they are allowed by or even orchestrated by God for our good? i.e. "I may never have fully realized the extent of my authority, had I not been faced with evil." I suppose it is a matter of perspective.

Science can't explain the spirit realm. Even if we can see or discern pieces of it, we can't use science to quantify it. I.E. the frequencies or vibrations. .... To reason from the physical realm that "one can sometimes see into a scientifically unseeable dimensoin", is not reasonable, or able to be proven scientifically. ............................

IF I am understanding correctly, it may be your assumption that science can't explain the spirit realm. I don't particularly agree. I guess I'd have to respond with a caveate of "YET". I don't put science up on a pedestal. But certain disciplines of the scientific community have made progress in determining or explaining other dimensions including what we would refer to as "the spirit realm". It may not be accurate but it is possible.

IF you are trying to say that everything exists in either the "spirit" or the "physical". I can understand your position. Again, I don't agree. But I can certainly understand your thinking. From the postion of the physical realm, it is certainly understandable that one would ascertain that everything else would be "spirit".

I do speak in those terms sometimes. But for the purpose of this discussion, my position is that it is possible that all things simply exist. Some things we can perceive, some things we don't. Yet they exist. They are. From the eternal perspective (God's point of view) it is all part of creation. No division of entities ... just existence as God created it. Some of it is visible to other parts of it but it is all God's creation.

From a scientific perspective, it is certainly feasible that it all things exist and it is simply a matter of frequency or spectrum and current equipment limitations as to whether or not we can perceive it.

I think I have been pretty clear that my thoughts on the subject are not be considered an absolute position. While my choice of words may not have always held to that, I think it's obvious that it is my intent regarding the topic to pose possibilities not absolutes. Things to ponder... if you will.


edit.... I just realized that there may have been a whole page of posts that I missed... could it have possibly moved that fast? LOL
No wonder I got lost. I'm sorry I didn't address your post with the logic statement in it. Maybe it's for the better.