Please people, don't be this guy [Passenger Removed From Flight]

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wave42

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Jan 23, 2010
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Exactly. And you won't win it by being a .......... :thumb: The battle for public opinion should be first.

And educating the public is the first step. Unfortunately, many people turn to the government as the authoritative source of all information. And what is the FDA saying? Carcinogens, antifreeze, unsafe! Unfortunately, we're in a battle with an 800lb gorilla and the only way we can win is by winning the support of the public. You don't do that by antagonizing the populace.
 

Monkerfish

Full Member
Dec 27, 2010
54
7
Indiana
I would hope at this day and age. People don't believe everything they hear. Margarine good Butter bad. The next week.. Butter good Margarine bad. They say red wine is good for you..tell that to an alcoholic. I am so sick of people getting all caught up in the hype of the media.
Ino it is our responsibility as vapors to educate the people around us about vaping. To tell them how we quit smoking by using a PV (not an e-cig). Everyone takes a shower or boils water. ie vapor. Take the time to explain in terms people can relate to. Ignorance causes fear. Lets explain and take the fear away. Happy vaping
 

mle

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 29, 2010
184
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No one is trying to stop me from getting a job, drinking from a water fountain, or voting. When that happens maybe I'll be more militant about it.

They are both civil rights, I suppose that's true. But they aren't both as serious. I'm not willing to land a plane just for vaping rights. All that accomplishes is sending off an entire plane of angry passengers with a negative experience about vaping.

I agree - no one is refusing us our civil rights. Hospitals that don't hire nicotine users aren't denying employment to anyone based on something that we are unable to change. Although quitting (smoking) is difficult, it is not impossible and people HAVE successfully quit.
I also agree that ANY form of transportation is probably not the best location to 'make your stand'. Just because Johnny can do it, doesn't mean we can...
 

throatkick

Unregistered Supplier
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Dec 20, 2010
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Oh of course not, what a can of worms that would be! Some airlines, to my understanding, allow vaping so it's surely not a federal crime.

You got a list of vape-friendly airlines? I take long flights and they are unbearable. That's how I started vaping about 2 years ago. I always went to the restroom, otherwise I super extra deep stealth vaped. Ninjas had nothing on me :)
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
I agree - no one is refusing us our civil rights. Hospitals that don't hire nicotine users aren't denying employment to anyone based on something that we are unable to change....

Although technically, what you say is true, it ignores the price that some of us pay. If you don't have depression, anxiety, attention deficits, memory problems, chronic fatigue, or chronic pain, it is very likely that when you give up nicotine, your life will go along pretty much as it did before, when you used nicotine. The majority of former smokers do not experience debilitating problems after they quit, so there is an assumption that this must be true for all smokers.

The elephant in the living room, however, is the sizable percentage of smokers who become dysfunctional when they obey the directions to wean themselves down and off nicotine. You can read my essay on this topic here: The Elephant in the Living Room? « Tobacco Harm Reduction: News & Opinions

I did choose to stay nicotine-free for six of the most miserable, agonizing months of my life. When I was about to lose my job because I couldn't concentrate and remember well enough to perform my work assignments to an acceptable level, I then made the choice to resume smoking. At the time, smoking was the best source of nicotine (20 years ago.) Today, I choose to use an electronic cigarette to remain a productive member of society.

So what it boils down to is a Sophie's choice. I would never be able to work for that hospital. If I used nicotine, they would refuse to hire me, based on my "addiction." If I stopped using nicotine, they would fire me, based on my inability to adequately perform my job duties.
 
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Aaeli

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 1, 2010
214
0
Kansas, U.S.
I agree with you. I came across pvs after a terrible time of trying to quit with patches and those horrible lozenges. I was fuzzy and unfocused, generally unwell both physically and mentally. As I've mentioned in previous threads, this is a dangerous way for me to be. I don't think stepping down is an option for me either, and I KNOW chantix isn't. It's just a fact I've come to deal with. Guess that means I won't be working there either. :D

The majority of people I've run into say something along the lines of "Is that one of those electric cigarette things? That's cool!". This leads me to believe that the majority of people could really care less if we're using it or not. I think we just have to continue to be vocal, yet non-combative. Like the title says, "Please don't be this guy!"
 

Exylos

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Oct 4, 2010
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I agree - no one is refusing us our civil rights. Hospitals that don't hire nicotine users aren't denying employment to anyone based on <b>something that we are unable to change. <b>

I am sorry but I absolutely disagree with your statement part in bold, for a whole lot of reasons. Just to name a few.

A civil right has nothing to do with something that you cannot change. It is a civil right to Bare arms in the United states. You can change that, you can give up your guns. But it is a guaranteed right. When someone in government says anything about taking them away. The courts step in why because it is a civil right in the US. An employer cannot tell you that they will not hire you because you own, or use a gun.

The right to free speech is a civil right, but we can change how we use it, I mean after all we could just keep our mouths shut, and no one can tell me they do not want to hire me or put me in jail, because I do say something they do not like. You can tell me to go to hell, and that is your right of free speech, but you could have just kept your mouth shut so could have changed that aspect. But if you don't your still protected.

The fact is that rights and freedoms are not limited to anyone item or freedom. The freedom of choice, most always apply that to abortion, but the text of the actual right, and the freedom that it gives reads like this.

It is a god given right, for any man or woman to choose for themselves, any action that, or any that is for you personally. No government or organisation shall have the right to tell any individual how they may use, care for, or treat the temple of their own body.

As I said before there is no second hand vaper, we know this from, the tests done in New Zealand, So this makes it a personal choice. The hospitals are Violating a civil right, the FDA wants to violate a civil right, the airplane company violated his civil rights, and does with any rules banning any legal substance. Rights that are laid out in the constitution and the bill of rights, and they want to do that by simply telling you no. Only congress has the right to fully ban anything honestly, or tell any organization that they have the right to do so. Yet constantly over and over again, the courts always say no you can't do this, it is illegal based on the grounds that it is a violation of civil rights to do so.

and to say a civil right only means things you can't change is wrong, because we already know that is not what it means. Now they can say it is for safety, but it is not because obviously no second hand vaper, so doesn't harm those around them. The small tiny piece that makes the vaperizer work, will not interfere with the planes instruments, because if they could be messed with that easy the damn thing would never get off the ground. So no safety issue there, and since I am sure that if a person using their PV and being left alone, would never just get up and start to scream and scare other passengers, because they would not need to argue about the fact the rule says no smoke, and well there is none. I do not think that anyone using a PV would not use one that is not recognizable as a pv on a plane, because of the fear of bombs. I mean seriously i would not wish to be mistaken as carrying one. So I would probably use a Pen style, they suck but at least they don't look like a pipe bomb.

So what and why is the exact reason for these rules in the first place? It can only boil down to the need to control the will and actions of others. While it may not seem like the right place to make a stand, because well it will be inconvenience to the others on the plane, that can be said for anything. But in truth I am sorry but i would rather inconvenience the whole of the universe, to stop my rights being taken from me, because if they get past me believe it or not you are in the line, and once I am gone they will get you at some point. Or I can stop it at me, which would you choose.
 
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Aaeli

Senior Member
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Dec 1, 2010
214
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Kansas, U.S.
I vape and would be seriously peeved if some idiot landed my plane by insisting on his or her right to vape. It's just common sense that no one is going to want to support you if they're angry at you.

I get what you're saying about civil rights on a philosophical level. I just don't think the same tactics will work in the real world regarding this issue, especially on a US flight. Make a stand at Wal-mart or something where no one is going to miss connecting flights, vacations, or whatever just so you could fight for the right to vape on a plane. They will NOT remember you or vaping kindly, and I guarantee they're going to complain about it to everyone they know, including the airline. No way is an airline going to change their policies because of stunts like this.
 

DC2

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Jun 21, 2009
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As I said before there is no second hand vaper, we know this from, the tests done in New Zealand,
Well, here is where we certainly don't agree.
And I guess that is where the rest of our disagreement, at least in part, also stems from.

The tests done in New Zealand were done a long time ago, back when people were all using relatively ineffective devices.
And back then they were also saying the vapor had no smell and dissipated in a matter of seconds.

Well, I can tell you that my clouds of vapor do in fact smell, and usually they smell very good.
And they definitely do not dissipate in a matter of seconds, not anymore.

There was a study done by Dr. Eissenberg not long ago showing that we are not even getting any nicotine from these devices.

We discussed it with the doctor here on this forum, explaining that you need a good device and you need to learn how to use it.
He would up getting a device we recommended and tried it himself and did acknowledge that he tested positive for nicotine.

There is a reason the National Vapors Club and CASAA are joining together to try and get funding for the IVAQS study.
We all need to know what is in the vapor we exhale before we can educate the rest of the world.
 

MoonRose

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Aug 3, 2010
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I would imagine that tests on exhaled vapor will show a fairly large amount of propylene glycol, a small amount of glycerin with probably minute amounts of nicotine and any ingredients that are used in the flavorings. More than likely anywhere from 95-98 percent of the nicotine is absorbed by the user. PV's are not 100% safe (nothing in life is 100% safe), but they are definitely much safer than smoking tobacco for the user and infinitly safer for those nearby.
 

mle

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 29, 2010
184
9
Colorado
I am sorry but I absolutely disagree with your statement part in bold, for a whole lot of reasons. Just to name a few.

A civil right has nothing to do with something that you cannot change. It is a civil right to Bare arms in the United states. You can change that, you can give up your guns. But it is a guaranteed right. When someone in government says anything about taking them away. The courts step in why because it is a civil right in the US. An employer cannot tell you that they will not hire you because you own, or use a gun.

The right to free speech is a civil right, but we can change how we use it, I mean after all we could just keep our mouths shut, and no one can tell me they do not want to hire me or put me in jail, because I do say something they do not like. You can tell me to go to hell, and that is your right of free speech, but you could have just kept your mouth shut so could have changed that aspect. But if you don't your still protected.

The fact is that rights and freedoms are not limited to anyone item or freedom. The freedom of choice, most always apply that to abortion, but the text of the actual right, and the freedom that it gives reads like this.

It is a god given right, for any man or woman to choose for themselves, any action that, or any that is for you personally. No government or organisation shall have the right to tell any individual how they may use, care for, or treat the temple of their own body.

As I said before there is no second hand vaper, we know this from, the tests done in New Zealand, So this makes it a personal choice. The hospitals are Violating a civil right, the FDA wants to violate a civil right, the airplane company violated his civil rights, and does with any rules banning any legal substance. Rights that are laid out in the constitution and the bill of rights, and they want to do that by simply telling you no. Only congress has the right to fully ban anything honestly, or tell any organization that they have the right to do so. Yet constantly over and over again, the courts always say no you can't do this, it is illegal based on the grounds that it is a violation of civil rights to do so.

and to say a civil right only means things you can't change is wrong, because we already know that is not what it means. Now they can say it is for safety, but it is not because obviously no second hand vaper, so doesn't harm those around them. The small tiny piece that makes the vaperizer work, will not interfere with the planes instruments, because if they could be messed with that easy the damn thing would never get off the ground. So no safety issue there, and since I am sure that if a person using their PV and being left alone, would never just get up and start to scream and scare other passengers, because they would not need to argue about the fact the rule says no smoke, and well there is none. I do not think that anyone using a PV would not use one that is not recognizable as a pv on a plane, because of the fear of bombs. I mean seriously i would not wish to be mistaken as carrying one. So I would probably use a Pen style, they suck but at least they don't look like a pipe bomb.

So what and why is the exact reason for these rules in the first place? It can only boil down to the need to control the will and actions of others. While it may not seem like the right place to make a stand, because well it will be inconvenience to the others on the plane, that can be said for anything. But in truth I am sorry but i would rather inconvenience the whole of the universe, to stop my rights being taken from me, because if they get past me believe it or not you are in the line, and once I am gone they will get you at some point. Or I can stop it at me, which would you choose.

I did not mean to say that the definition of civil rights is a right based on something that cannot be changed, I'm sorry you took it like that because it seems to have set you off. I simply don't see how this situation can be compared to Rosa Parks sitting on the 'wrong' bus. Has anyone here honestly felt like they were treated as cruelly as African-Americans were treated? Have you truly felt that you were considered a second-class citizen because you use a PV?
Personally, I will continue to vape only where welcome and encourage others to do so as well. If you feel that it is your "god given right" to "inconvenience the whole universe" so that you may vape on a plane, than by all means go for it.
 

popsec

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Apr 19, 2009
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www.vtvapor.com
...The right to free speech is a civil right, but we can change how we use it, I mean after all we could just keep our mouths shut, and no one can tell me they do not want to hire me or put me in jail, because I do say something they do not like. You can tell me to go to hell, and that is your right of free speech, but you could have just kept your mouth shut so could have changed that aspect. But if you don't your still protected.
...
(emphasis mine)

This actually isn't correct. A private employer can absolutely refuse to hire someone based on what they say. And, let's face it, the airlines are not (yet) run by the government. They are private places of business. Now, being a common carrier, airlines are subjected to additional regulation (think ADA & ERA legislation), but this does not extend to vaping. Indeed, a private business owner can kick a customer out for drinking water, for being a PITA, for being a communist, or for just about any reason other than your race. The rights you mentioned protect you from the government, not from private corporations and individuals.

So, while I certainly think airlines should allow vaping, and would happily push for them to adopt such a permissive policy, there is no right to vape on the private property of another person or of a corporation. As such, if the person was belligerent or uncooperative with the airline staff or refused to discontinue vaping, the airline was likely well within its rights to have the individual removed from the property. ~~Adam

Edit: Oh, and for the person who mentioned government buildings (schools, courthouses, etc.) - those are probably the safest places to vape since there are due process protections from arbitrary government action.
 
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Mark Linehan

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Sep 15, 2010
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marknsalem.blogspot.com
Delta already has a no e-cig policy it's in their rules along with all the other stuff. This was interesting from the comment section on another article.

"This is not the whole truth, my wife was on that plane. They are not telling us something, my wife said it was much more than an electonic cigarette. Plane surrounded with guns drawn police. 2 gun drawn police entered plane from rear and handcuffed suspect, took him off plane, removed his luggage and had plane checked for structural damage. WHAT IS THE WHOLE STORY???"

Incident: Allegiant MD82 near Norfolk on Jan 24th 2011, unruly passenger

I'm just guessing but I think this guy most have become more than a little beligerent.

So, in other words, this guy was using something other than a 510 model. Probably one of them darn new 808D users...
:D
 

maxx

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Jan 23, 2010
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www.omnimaxx.com
It should be noted, the feds are not charging the passenger.

Plane lands in Norf. due to e-cigarette | WAVY.com | Norfolk, Va.

This speaks volumes about what happened. It is a very big deal to divert a plane. It costs money, it disrupts flight patterns, security service routines change, tons of bigshots get notified, etc. The fact that he wasn't charged tells me the attendant overreacted and our vaper dude may not have been the beligerant person first believed.
 

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
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May 22, 2010
16,733
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I've never had anyone object to my vaping in public, but I wouldn't attempt vaping on a plane, especially after the guy getting kicked off and arrested. I've vaped in airports, but not in flight.

It will be a while before the public fully accepts vaping. Remember, the ratio of smokers to nonsmokers has changed in the last 20 years from 75% smokesr to 25% smokers (or less). That tells me 50% of the population are ex-smokers! Ex-smokers can be some of the worst anti-cigarette activists ever. I used for have a boss who hadn't smoked in almost 20 years. He had a reputation for his hatred of tobacco. He tolerated my smoking and one day while we were standing outside while I smoked, he admitted that sometimes he had the urge and once in a while the smoke smelled so good he thought he could eat a whole pack!

We, as vapers, remind them of the days they enjoyed the calm that nicotine provides.
 
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