i wish that would be camerable like redlights or speeding, big brother is a pain but he cleans the steets.
Proposals on how to replace lost State tax revenue?
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I am in complete agreement as to the cig butts. If ever you have to clean up after some Jack-... in your yester-years, you have a better understanding. I have diligently tried to not being "that" scumbag.
My son saw an old acquaintance of mine, and said "Is he a scumbag too daddy?" I responded with "He was acting like a scumbag, and should work" on that issue. I even instill this in my children.
(Referencing higher ranking people that just didn't care... since they know they don't have to clean it. That is reserved of E3 and below, typically.)
My son saw an old acquaintance of mine, and said "Is he a scumbag too daddy?" I responded with "He was acting like a scumbag, and should work" on that issue. I even instill this in my children.
(Referencing higher ranking people that just didn't care... since they know they don't have to clean it. That is reserved of E3 and below, typically.)
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I used to work custruction for a couple of years and man it was unreal how many butts would end up laying around a site after a couple of weeks and half dozen guys all tossing their butts on someone's lawn.
I would come home with a pocket full of them and it drove my wife nuts and it also grossed out people if they saw it as well. But hey, better my pocket then someone's lawn.
When I was at Camp Pendleton, Camp Horno, CA, I made the mistake of pitching a .... on the grinder and getting caught by our company Gunny. My punishment was to find 500 butts on the grinder and pick them up. Just like trying to find a dead sand flea because it's a cardinal sin to litter on the parade deck. I was gathering butts from anyplace I could find them. Never did it again. Got into the habit of field stripping the butts and putting them in my pocket until I found a trash can.
This is a much better solution to the problem. When you levy huge taxes on cigarettes for the reason that some people litter, you end up unfairly punishing all those who don't litter. Come up with a way to punish ONLY those who are causing the problem.
The last new car I bought (2002) came with no ash tray. The manufacturer wanted (are you sitting down?) $325 for one. Well, I didn't want to throw butts out the window but I wasn't about to spend that kind of money on a stupid ashtray.
I purchased an ashtray on the internet for $15 (plus shipping) that fits into a car's cup holder, and it was far superior to any car's ashtray. You dropped the .... through a hole in the center and the lack of oxygen would make it go out. Then you would swing the lid shut. Unlike a standard car ashtray, this one kept the odor about 99% contained and the mess was invisible until you took off the top to empty it.
I still have it, but I don't smoke any more. Anybody want to buy a used ashtray?
I've still got one of those very same ashtrays in my car. I also have my very last cigarette too - unlit, of course. My car has a built in ashtray (2003 Century), but, the way the car was designed inside they must have wanted you to smoke with the windows up and the aircon on. With the windows down, there's a vortex that forms right above the ashtray, unless you put the cig in it and tap off the ash, it'll blow all through the car.
Phil,
I had seen that RJR patent before and had looked at it closely. Basically if you took a kr808 cartomizer and wrapped the stuffing with a single piece of tobacco leaf it would meet that patent. That allows you to make a nearly identical product to a kr8 and since it has even the smallest piece of actual tobacco in it it becomes a tobacco product. The FDA would argue that PG is the largest component, but you could argue back that PG has been used in cigs for years.
It's very likely, imo, that this is what RJR had in mind with this patent. It would be likely that the retail price would be about double the present retail numbers.
I had seen that RJR patent before and had looked at it closely. Basically if you took a kr808 cartomizer and wrapped the stuffing with a single piece of tobacco leaf it would meet that patent. That allows you to make a nearly identical product to a kr8 and since it has even the smallest piece of actual tobacco in it it becomes a tobacco product. The FDA would argue that PG is the largest component, but you could argue back that PG has been used in cigs for years.
It's very likely, imo, that this is what RJR had in mind with this patent. It would be likely that the retail price would be about double the present retail numbers.
All the politicians claim the increases in taxes are to pay for the increased health care due to smoking, the more people that switch to e-cigs the less medical bills, therefor, the less tax dollars are needed. Problem solved. 
It's not our responsibility to replace tax revenue that's lost from us quitting smoking. Government (federal and states) never should've over-taxed us like that in the first place. What they need to do is learn how to manage our money and work with a balanced budget. They won't, though. They'll just pick a new target... I'm pretty sure obesity is slated for demonization next, so taxing the hell out of soda, snacks and fast food is likely how government will recoup lost tax revenue (you know, "for the kids").
All the politicians claim the increases in taxes are to pay for the increased health care due to smoking, the more people that switch to e-cigs the less medical bills, therefor, the less tax dollars are needed. Problem solved.
Actually one of the statistics that came out of the big lawsuits with the tobacco companies was that over their lifetime smokers had lower average total medical costs due to the fact that they ended to die many years sooner and death was generally much quicker.
Do smokers cost society money? - USATODAY.com
A quick Google brings up this. The news article seems to cover many of the relevant studies. A proper citation would require hunting the individual studies.
A quick Google brings up this. The news article seems to cover many of the relevant studies. A proper citation would require hunting the individual studies.
It is not quite that simple. But since people do, and should, get paid well to figure these things out with certainty, I'll leave it at that.
Whether or not future tobacco product versions of the e-cig will be able to be used for DIY purposes remains to be seen. Actual tobacco will be used in their design, and they will deliver more of the tobacco alkaloids than just nicotine. So, even though they will be combustion-free electronic smoking devices, they will certainly not be e-cigs as we know them today.
Nevertheless, once the courts have fully validated the FDA's classification of today's e-liquids and e-cigs as unapproved drugs and devices, there will be no more 'allowing' them to be sold as openly, and without consequence, as they are today. Alternate solutions already exist on the hardware front (such as the Iolite, and the Ploom); and vaporizers that are more geared to volatilizing liquids are bound to be forthcoming. But, yes, as you have thought, acquiring nicotine-containing e-liquid will become a totally different proposition than what it is today.
Preparing for these changes has led many to learn how to rebuild atomizers, and experiment with ways to make their own e-liquid. I initially did the same, but the convenience factor has led me in an altogether different direction than managing to preserve the e-cig as we know it. Nonetheless, this different direction is not something I am presently willing to elaborate on.
Under the most optimistic scenarion, the FDA will regulate ecigs as tobacco products. Here are my predictions. I know how lobbyists and government work and I've seen this movie before. In short, you can bet the farm on them.
No "non-tobacco" flavors (think of the children)
Sealed, tamper-proof cartomizers or cartridges.
No bulk nicotine sales.
Non-rebuildable atomizers. For ease of enforcement, possibly atomizers will be banned entirely and only cartomizers will be allowed.
Low nic. content, (my guess is probably max. in the 10-15mg. range)
"Designer" ecigs banned. Goodbye "Silver bullet", "screwdriver" and all the rest. The rationale will be that these items glamorize smoking and attract young people.
The PACT act will be amended to encompass e-cigs and delivery by mail or common carrier will be prohibited.
Only stores with permits to sell tobacco will be allowed to sell e-cigs.
Taxation will be imposed by Congress as well as the State Legislators with the help of the BT lobbyists who helped so much in diverting 50% of the billions in revenue from pre-packaged analogs to the tiny (approx 0.5 mil. consumers) bulk RYO/MYO market, resulting in a 2000% tax increase. The goal will be to replace any lost revenue on a 1:1 basis and ensure that it is at least as expensive to vape as it is to smoke an equivalent number of analogs. The BT lobbyists refer to this as "leveling the playing field", it was the goal when setting the tax rate on bulk tobacco and, by-and-large, it was achieved. When joined by the health nazis, BT will have an even easier time of it this go 'round.
Due to the recent "Citizens United" court case, (which allows unlimited political spending by any corporation, foreign or domestic), any politician who dares to object to the taxation level or any other restriction put forth by the army of BT lobbyists, will find themselves faced with a very well funded opponent and a media blitz of negative advertising during the next campaign cycle. Politicians know this, so they will shut up and pass legislation to tax ecigs at an equivalent rate as they have other forms of tobacco.
Ultimately, an attack by BT, the FDA (supported by Pharma) and the smoking Nazis, along with scared and revenue starved State and Federal legislators, will be launched to make ecigs expensive, inconvenient, and unappealing. But they'll be doing it for the children, so it'll be fine.
No "non-tobacco" flavors (think of the children)
Sealed, tamper-proof cartomizers or cartridges.
No bulk nicotine sales.
Non-rebuildable atomizers. For ease of enforcement, possibly atomizers will be banned entirely and only cartomizers will be allowed.
Low nic. content, (my guess is probably max. in the 10-15mg. range)
"Designer" ecigs banned. Goodbye "Silver bullet", "screwdriver" and all the rest. The rationale will be that these items glamorize smoking and attract young people.
The PACT act will be amended to encompass e-cigs and delivery by mail or common carrier will be prohibited.
Only stores with permits to sell tobacco will be allowed to sell e-cigs.
Taxation will be imposed by Congress as well as the State Legislators with the help of the BT lobbyists who helped so much in diverting 50% of the billions in revenue from pre-packaged analogs to the tiny (approx 0.5 mil. consumers) bulk RYO/MYO market, resulting in a 2000% tax increase. The goal will be to replace any lost revenue on a 1:1 basis and ensure that it is at least as expensive to vape as it is to smoke an equivalent number of analogs. The BT lobbyists refer to this as "leveling the playing field", it was the goal when setting the tax rate on bulk tobacco and, by-and-large, it was achieved. When joined by the health nazis, BT will have an even easier time of it this go 'round.
Due to the recent "Citizens United" court case, (which allows unlimited political spending by any corporation, foreign or domestic), any politician who dares to object to the taxation level or any other restriction put forth by the army of BT lobbyists, will find themselves faced with a very well funded opponent and a media blitz of negative advertising during the next campaign cycle. Politicians know this, so they will shut up and pass legislation to tax ecigs at an equivalent rate as they have other forms of tobacco.
Ultimately, an attack by BT, the FDA (supported by Pharma) and the smoking Nazis, along with scared and revenue starved State and Federal legislators, will be launched to make ecigs expensive, inconvenient, and unappealing. But they'll be doing it for the children, so it'll be fine.
Sailorman,
Sadly, I have to agree with your scenario. No matter which way the court case ends up, I fear it is going to end badly for us.
I can only hope it will take a while to impose any restrictions so alternative methods can be devised. We can only stockpile so much stuff. The short shelf life of e-juice is the main problem, as I see it. Attys can be rebuilt or fabricated. Flashlights and batteries will always be available. But juice? That's the problem and that is where they are going to get us.
GB
Sadly, I have to agree with your scenario. No matter which way the court case ends up, I fear it is going to end badly for us.
I can only hope it will take a while to impose any restrictions so alternative methods can be devised. We can only stockpile so much stuff. The short shelf life of e-juice is the main problem, as I see it. Attys can be rebuilt or fabricated. Flashlights and batteries will always be available. But juice? That's the problem and that is where they are going to get us.
GB
This might seem like a bit of a rant, and maybe I am off-base here, but how could the FDA or anyone else, have jurisdiction over sales of the battery and atomizer, alone they are nothing but an electronic gadget, a "mini-fog machine" if you will. I can't help but think about the various shops in my city that sell one-hitters, bongs, etc., but obviously not the dope to go in them. Isn't that basically how they are able to sell them?
I still think that we shouldn't ever roll over and play dead for the government, the FDA or anyone else. The only way that we even have a chance is to work together and fight for our rights to choose what we consume and put into our bodies.
The more vapers there are, the more the power shifts to the people. I personally have gotten at least 10 people to replace their tobacco cigarettes with pv's. If each of us did that, and those people then did the same, before long the voices would become far too loud to ignore.
I am sure that e-juice will be available in one form or another. Perhaps not the way we buy it today, but you know as long as tobacco is available, the raw materials to make e-juice will be too. I seriously doubt every Hobby Lobby, pharmacy, and farm & fleet store are going to pull Vegetable Glycerin, flavorings and PG off their shelves to prevent the "bootlegging vapers" from making homemade e-juice.
I for one am not willing to give up without a fight... They can pry my PV from my cold dead hand...
Okay, rant over.
I still think that we shouldn't ever roll over and play dead for the government, the FDA or anyone else. The only way that we even have a chance is to work together and fight for our rights to choose what we consume and put into our bodies.
The more vapers there are, the more the power shifts to the people. I personally have gotten at least 10 people to replace their tobacco cigarettes with pv's. If each of us did that, and those people then did the same, before long the voices would become far too loud to ignore.
I am sure that e-juice will be available in one form or another. Perhaps not the way we buy it today, but you know as long as tobacco is available, the raw materials to make e-juice will be too. I seriously doubt every Hobby Lobby, pharmacy, and farm & fleet store are going to pull Vegetable Glycerin, flavorings and PG off their shelves to prevent the "bootlegging vapers" from making homemade e-juice.
I for one am not willing to give up without a fight... They can pry my PV from my cold dead hand...
Okay, rant over.
I still think that we shouldn't ever roll over and play dead for the government, the FDA or anyone else. The only way that we even have a chance is to work together and fight for our rights to choose what we consume and put into our bodies.
I seriously doubt every Hobby Lobby, pharmacy, and farm & fleet store are going to pull Vegetable Glycerin, flavorings and PG off their shelves to prevent the "bootlegging vapers" from making homemade e-juice.
Could put it behind the pharmacy counter like they do with the high strength nasal decongestants
I for one am not willing to give up without a fight... They can pry my PV from my cold dead hand...
Okay, rant over.
Rant on brother. This tax thing just makes my blood boil. Its the same fight we are having with the FDA, just a different version. Government is DOING too much for us. If they didnt DO so much they wouldnt need to take every dollar they can from taxing you to death. FDA has a purpose, that's the problem, they no longer serve that purpose. They like the rest of the government serves the almighty dollar. Spend your budget or lose it, pick a fight and drag the little guy into court to prove the need for your existence, if your cause is no longer on the front page or lip of everyone that writes you a blank check, stir the pot, find a villain, take a stand and dont back down even in the face of reality.
If ecigs (as they call them) were going to kill us, they'd have proven it by now. But they've already staked their ground and they arent gonna give or admit they are wrong even when the judge says so. Appeal, compromise, regulate, they will always have options. How long you can fight will be the determining factor. They've got you paying for both sides of the fight, kinda makes it hard to stay in the game. Again I want people at the FDA to care about their job and stick it to people who cant be bothered to produce a safe product, but they also need to realize that the world is not covered in bubble wrap. They cant make it 100% safe, but seem determined to try even though they know it cant be done.
Ok I see your point. I'll stop ranting now too.
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