Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it
- Thread starter metalhed73
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Usually an indication that you're running dry.
It would seem from other wick media but the exact opposite is true.
You'll get airier and so apparently more vapor when this happens. In fact your vapor density has declined and heat is rapidly expanding the remainder as the coil/wick is getting hotter without the cooling effect of juice. This gives the appearance of more vapor, not flavor though. And that's how you tell.
If it's a fresh build it may be normal but try and juice up the wick a bit more prior to vape. If it starts to scorch on ya it'll taste like sh!te and give you the mother of all dry hits.
At first sight, the thing to suspect is the possibility that your wick is a tad too tight or dense. It may suffice for the moment but with repeated near-scorching may start to funk out on ya right quick. The other possibility is your flavor wick if you use one may be too full and is chocking off the primary wick. A third possibility is too much power applied for the wick you have (not enough flow). Or any combination.
But the key to being able to rest with these three simple adjustments...is to make sure there isn't a short that could be overheating the coil and drying out the wick. The main indicator, resistance. If that's off to the high or the low (from what you built, where you should be per the wind) substantially the most common is a leg hanger (described elsewhere on this thread and how to deal). The remainder bad coil or termination geometry/orientation.
You're doing good. Assuming no resistance change, that means no shorts in all likelihood and a solid build. You've got a vape goin' and you're not flooding. The rest is fine tuning.
This thread is here to help folks know where they stand. If you build a simple precision coil install by a standard, you have that starting point. You know what optimal will be. And you'll always know how to get it back.
Good luck soul.
Hmmm.. There is a thread about popping where it's commonly agreed that popping is a good thing but you seem really knowledgeable so i'm not doubting you. I did remove the flavor wick and it cut the popping down a bit. That being said i've been vaping constantly on that coil and haven't had anything but great flavor and better pulls. I get the same hit in 3secs that usually takes 5-6.
I'm really happy with these cotton wicks. One day ill have a few bucks & buy some kanthal. (being unemployed for 6 months is not fun) anyways it's very satisfying to try a new skill/trick and it work so well!
Sent from my LGL55C using Tapatalk 2
Congrats emily. Glad you stopped in. You'll get a great vape on here. And all you grls have great hand control. Put us guys to shame once you do. Wish more of ya would join us! Then maybe we'd here a little less of the I just can't do it cursin' and foot draggin' (too embarrassing for us fella's).
Motivate us, will ya? We love to compete for the privilege.
Post a pic of your un-musshy wind. Make us proud.
Good luck.
Last edited:
^^^ These are the two I did tonight, they're by no means perfect, but they're not mushed either! Still playing to see what I like. That's 7/6 wraps w/32g coming in at 1.8Ω and 10/9 w/28g coming in at only 1.1 Ω. I was hoping for a bit higher, but I don't think there's any way I can get a 11th in there.
^^^ These are the two I did tonight, they're by no means perfect, but they're not mushed either! Still playing to see what I like. That's 7/6 wraps w/32g coming in at 1.8Ω and 10/9 w/28g coming in at only 1.1 Ω. I was hoping for a bit higher, but I don't think there's any way I can get a 11th in there.
You're definitely headed in the right direction. Both of these are probably better than factory if you vaped 'em already. A few pointers where your fine hand control will most definitely help.
First, don't feel bad if they're not perfect. It's hard to get a tight wind by hand or with tension using 32 AWG wire. It's quite thin and springy and you have to get the pressure squeezing/torching or with tension just right. It takes some practice and concentration with 32g.
Your 7 turn is tighter and a good effort. The bent negative leg (on the left, outer grommet) is a departure from the symmetry or balance. Like too wide a lane on the highway that everyone wants to be in at the same time…electrons will tend to flood it. It will get hot and become what's referred to often here, the proverbial hot leg.
You'll notice that it's pointing away from the direction of the others. It needs to point and ground or terminate to the top and left of where it's seated on the grommet. At that point aligned in the same direction as the rest. Now, if you keep the coil on the drill bit at the bottom of the slot making such an adjustment is simple.
Before…you push the grommet all the way in you can softly slide that lead around the grommet with a slight pull. A slight twist of the wire can sometimes help release it so it may slip around. Slide it gently around until it is aligned with the rest. The leads should end up roughly opposite each other (great pick of the cup emily). A gentle finger pull will then even up the tension of that end turn with respect to the others. And that's key. Keeping the tension of the end turns about the same as the rest. Loose end turns are the source of hot legs and the infamous burny grommet syndrome endlessly discussed throughout ECF. That's the bird whose feathers we'd like to pluck here.
The 10 wind is pretty but as you probably know it needs to be a bit tighter. Not sure if you're trying to tension wind but let me suggest a very helpful solution, the pin vise. They're inexpensive and a simple drill bit or drill blank will give you a size choice to help you find your best temperature/resistance. Best of all, no taping. The wire and the bit go right in the collet…then start winding! But the main reason you want one is it will give you a better grip and…leverage! A great google search for pin vise results…
Google Search: Professional Swivel Head Pin Vise 2 Reversible Chucks
In there I found this all-around great pin vise (plentiful offers) which has a collet for 1-2 mm and 2-3mm (I ordered one!)…
Professional Quality Brass Pin Vise - 4 Collets Chucks 0.0mm to 3.0mm
I've also used this item (that's where the search title derives) and it's perfect for Protank work but the collet only accepts bits up to 2mm. Can't be beat for the money and available from various sources…
Professional Swivel Head Pin Vise 2 Reversible Chucks
Finally, there is a great little kit from Dremel that includes a variety of bit sizes that I strongly recommend. It includes 1//16" which works for the protank but is missing the critical .07" drill bit/blank size that's close to the width of the slot (the largest coil/wick size). Those bits you can find elsewhere. But it's a cheap kit for diameters useful in small drippers and other tanks…
Dremel 628-01 7 Piece Drill Bit Set
It would seem you are winding on a screwdriver or other bit so you're on the right track. I hope the links may save you money and time. And you'll benefit from the precision these cheap tools can provide you.
Back to the 10 wind. It takes a few tries to get the hang of adhesion with a tension wind. If you're just hand winding you can certainly get close. Tension will get you there comfortably.
Then paying attention to leg orientation as you set will be the ticket. I'd say easily more than 9/10 shorts (apart from hangers which can happen anytime) are due to orientation and symmetry.
It's about balance. And a soft touch'll do you emily. Thanks for the feedback and the great pictures. Hope you do more great ones and share them with us. I'm sure before long there'll be more than a few that'll be admiring them with envy (more like salivating).
Good luck!
Last edited:
I'm glad it seems to have worked for your, one way or the other. That's the idea. Popping is a good thing I think for silica but usually an indication that the cotton's dryin' out fast. In general I think it indicates good vaporization, i.e. drainin' fast. Which when you think about it may not be exactly good if you have a hot turn for example and you're getting a dry spot when you add power or a fresh battery. Always a good idea to evaluate your build and know for sure what's goin' on.
Best of luck to you soul.
Always a good idea to evaluate your build and know for sure what's goin' on.
Hey Mac,
seems like you're the go to guy around here for advice and opinions........ and I am in search of Evaluation!
I do a bit of a hybrid wicking thing where I have silica in the coil, and cotton strands on top for flavor.........
when taste gets low, I dry burn and re wick...........
see below for my favorite build.......... and please feel free to give an opinion.........
My best build ever...... Kangar Protank II coil
32 gauge kantal A-1
1/16th drill bit
3/4 wrap
1.5 ohms
once installed, pass 2 x 1mm silica through coil
then on top, add 2 strands of boiled cotton yarn
presto.......
it heats up fast, great flavour
if you use a dark liquid, open it up, remove the cotton flavor wicks, dry burn, replace cotton flavour wicks,
and you're good to go again
will last a while
g
That sounds brilliant. I know Mac will have some beautiful prose in regards to this, but quite simply, it's about finding your best and most consistent vape. If you find this to be your best vape ever, continue with it!
The point of contact TMC is to have an electrically sound and consistently repeatable process to produce your best vape as often as possible!
Side note, I will be trying this build myself despite not having the greatest luck with silica wicks.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
hey, good luck with it.....
it's just the convenience of being able to dry burn without replacing the coil wick because it's silica, and then putting fresh cotton on top
it's so fast, and so convenient......... and I use two different tobacco liquids... dark and darker... gums up pretty quick......
I even use this system with the factory coils....... makes em last for a real long time
g
btw... the trick to getting the 2 x 1mm silica inside the coil is to take one piece of 1mm silica, pass it through a needle or a kanthal wire homemade needle to half way point, and pulling it through the coil like it's two x 1mm....... then you just cut both ends to fit........
it's just the convenience of being able to dry burn without replacing the coil wick because it's silica, and then putting fresh cotton on top
it's so fast, and so convenient......... and I use two different tobacco liquids... dark and darker... gums up pretty quick......
I even use this system with the factory coils....... makes em last for a real long time
g
btw... the trick to getting the 2 x 1mm silica inside the coil is to take one piece of 1mm silica, pass it through a needle or a kanthal wire homemade needle to half way point, and pulling it through the coil like it's two x 1mm....... then you just cut both ends to fit........
Last edited:
At the very beginning of my study, I evaluated hand-wound and precision wound versions of silica and silica hybrid wicks. At least a hundred builds were dedicated to that part of the study. And I will agree with you wholeheartedly on the cotton top wick. I used many kinds including cotton gauze, cheesecloth and others. I loved them all as really intensifying the flavor result and masking that of silica. And I still on occasion do specific comparison winds using silica wick. As a matter of fact, I have one such minor study running now involving the suitability of a silica variant for certain rebuildables.
Based on my findings I don't believe your build on a Protank can approach a good vape at all. In fact because of the fragility of 1mm silica even as a top-wick (there is a reason you've dispensed with it obviously). Yet it's enough for the inadequate vaporization area of a 4/3 wind at 1.5Ω? Really? I'm honestly, skeptical. However, I am (not patronizing, I believe you like it truly) considering doing a study of your specific build. If my hypothesis is correct, I'd like to take pictures of it and publish them broadly here on ECF and elsewhere as an example of what not to do.
That said, this is not a criticism of you. Please don't take it that way. If the build you describe is producing a taste that you enjoy as brook suggested, and I agree, then that's the build for you. Period. Who am I to say? So I'm glad this works for you. And you were lucky to find a solution for your tastes. It's bit off the beaten path. But, so it is for many of us. Me I'm harder to please — I'm a traveller and enjoy the horizons. So experiment is what I do. And you wouldn't be able to experiment enough. Trust me.
I don't tell people here how to build ..... I'm passing on information as best as my ability and understanding allow as to what constitutes an electrically efficient build based on clearo designs, specifically Kanger's. I believe that for the vast majority of people kachuge that critical standard produces the most rewarding result. I believe the producers and designers of the equipment agree. They have fashioned their own coil designs at the resistance targets I have identified as sweet spots for these devices. Some I've mentioned specifically on this thread. In any case, I write about the tools and methods that work electrically and identify the optimal targets of performance. Where folks go from there is purely up to their own tastes, energies and disposition.
I'm a libertarian at heart.
Although most of the answers I would no doubt contribute I've already provided, on each of the issues posed by your post, at one time or another, on this and various other threads, the idea of evaluating them in combined context seems intriguing and challenging. And the visuals no doubt will be entertaining. So if you're up for it because I'm probably going to have questions, many, let's start with you're sharing what your favorite power ranges are for your build. Then please explain how you arrive predictably at the 1.5Ω resistance with a hand wind. I never did solve that conundrum nor cotton top-wick gunking up and charring within 24-48 hours (no matter how much I enjoyed it) as it inevitably charrs up the primary alongside it. And for most of us that makes such a build unworkable.
When you get a chance.
Thanks, and good luck.
Last edited:
holy crap, you ARE good......
your comments about my 1.5 ohms not being quite enough of a surface......totally right......
but this is the only one that I can depend on to come out the same every time.........
I have built better coils, but not consistently........ this is my most consistent build.....
and to be honest, if I could get a consistent 1.8 or 1.9 with the silica on the bottom and the cotton on top, I would be more happy.
maybe I will do more experimenting!
my battery isn't fancy....
I have a bunch of ego-c upgrade batteries at 650 mah...... the 1000 mah battery is just too long to be convenient....... I opted not to have the flex of variable power, in exchange for stability and simplicity...... maybe it's my loss, but I prefer it that way.... I really find the ego-c upgrade battery to be reliable and consistent like a quarter horse........ but it is no thoroughbred for sure...
re cotton flavor wick....
given I use dark tobacco liquids, really no matter what my flavour wick is, its going to gunk up quickly, and I would just rather be replacing cotton than anything else.... but changing the wick in the coil is just too much work, and with silica, I can dry burn a few times before having too.....
I appreciate your taking the time for a reply with comments.........
and like I said before....... you're good.. you caught that 1.5 ohm right away........... and yes, you now have me going back to trying a 4/5 wrap again until I get it right, just to get that resistance up a bit........
but also wanted to say thanks for all your past posts, I've read most of them......... very helpful...
regards,
g
your comments about my 1.5 ohms not being quite enough of a surface......totally right......
but this is the only one that I can depend on to come out the same every time.........
I have built better coils, but not consistently........ this is my most consistent build.....
and to be honest, if I could get a consistent 1.8 or 1.9 with the silica on the bottom and the cotton on top, I would be more happy.
maybe I will do more experimenting!
my battery isn't fancy....
I have a bunch of ego-c upgrade batteries at 650 mah...... the 1000 mah battery is just too long to be convenient....... I opted not to have the flex of variable power, in exchange for stability and simplicity...... maybe it's my loss, but I prefer it that way.... I really find the ego-c upgrade battery to be reliable and consistent like a quarter horse........ but it is no thoroughbred for sure...
re cotton flavor wick....
given I use dark tobacco liquids, really no matter what my flavour wick is, its going to gunk up quickly, and I would just rather be replacing cotton than anything else.... but changing the wick in the coil is just too much work, and with silica, I can dry burn a few times before having too.....
I appreciate your taking the time for a reply with comments.........
and like I said before....... you're good.. you caught that 1.5 ohm right away........... and yes, you now have me going back to trying a 4/5 wrap again until I get it right, just to get that resistance up a bit........
but also wanted to say thanks for all your past posts, I've read most of them......... very helpful...
regards,
g
Last edited:
Appreciate your answer…and I'm glad that you caught that I wasn't being frivolously playin' with you. I'm here to help any way I can. And to try to motivate folks not to give up. And that means at times necessarily accept that the great vape they got is they best vape they'll ever have. There really always is a new juice and a new horizon.
Yeah 32 at 1.5, seems kinda off. But if you like that resistance actually, you might benefit from a thicker wire. That'll give you more contact area and a better chance of efficiently vaporizing more juice. As I said I love cotton as a top-wick but never found a way to keep it from scorching. When it does it gunks and takes the main with it. For me that's terminal. I'm flavor sensitive.
If you like 1.5Ω, 29AWG, 9/8 1.58mm i.d. will get you close at about 1.6Ω. You'll probably need 10-turns hand wound. Tension wound 29AWG, 10/9 1.58mm i.d. @1.95Ω is about the most perfect vape in the Kanger universe. But 30AWG would still be a big improvement with any…
30AWG, 7/6 1.58mm i.d. (standard) m.c. = 1.57Ω
30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. (standard) m.c. = 1.81
30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. t.m.c. = 1.73Ω
Given your battery source/s, I'd opt for the higher resistance as more efficient (less relative energy lost to leads).
Although I would still have reservations about the fragility of 1mm silica kachuge. If I were you. I'd try tensioning because I've found the more even power distribution tends to keep the coil (itself) cleaner. I don't know how much with cotton on top to be honest. It might add a day or two. And I'd use 1.5mm silica and use the cellophane wrap to insert into the sixteenth.
That 30g wind above is another incredibly perfect vape and fires very fast with good diffusion of vapor (clouds). That zone right around 1.85Ω at least on the PT1 was a good production zone. The PT2 and Aero should even be better not only with airflow but because of it's internal vacuum dynamics. There is a notable difference between the three…PT1, 1.5 with the 2 and Aero being very close. As to the latter I haven't tested it yet but rely on the voluminous comparisons already made between it and the PT2.
If you can at some point spring for a Magneto and a Kick 12W (fix your power at your favorite point) I'd highly recommend it as an improvement. I still use eGo's with Mini's when I want a cool vape. But none will provide the vapor response that even a 350 batt can.
Good luck kachuge.
Last edited:
Appreciate your answer and I'm glad that you caught that I wasn't being frivolously playin' with you. I'm here to help any way I can. And to try to motivate folks not to give up. And that means at times necessarily accept that the great vape they got is they best vape they'll ever have. There really always is a new juice and a new horizon.
Yeah 32 at 1.5, seems kinda off. But if you like that resistance actually, you might benefit from a thicker wire. That'll give you more contact area and a better chance of efficiently vaporizing more juice. As I said I love cotton as a top-wick but never found a way to keep it from scorching. When it does it gunks and takes the main with it. For me that's terminal. I'm flavor sensitive.
If you like 1.5Ω, 29AWG, 9/8 1.58mm i.d. will get you close at about 1.6Ω. You'll probably need 10-turns hand wound. Tension wound 29AWG, 10/9 1.58mm i.d. @1.95Ω is about the most perfect vape in the Kanger universe. But 30AWG would still be a big improvement with any
30AWG, 7/6 1.58mm i.d. (standard) m.c. = 1.57Ω
30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. (standard) m.c. = 1.81
30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. t.m.c. = 1.73Ω
Given your battery source/s, I'd opt for the higher resistance as more efficient (less relative energy lost to leads).
Although I would still have reservations about the fragility of 1mm silica kachuge. If I were you. I'd try tensioning because I've found the more even power distribution tends to keep the coil (itself) cleaner. I don't know how much with cotton on top to be honest. It might add a day or two. And I'd use 1.5mm silica and use the cellophane wrap to insert into the sixteenth.
That 30g wind above is another incredibly perfect vape and fires very fast with good diffusion of vapor (clouds). That zone right around 1.85Ω at least on the PT1 was a good production zone. The PT2 and Aero should even be better not only with airflow but because of it's internal vacuum dynamics. There is a notable difference between the three PT1, 1.5 with the 2 and Aero being very close. As to the latter I haven't tested it yet but rely on the voluminous comparisons already made between it and the PT2.
If you can at some point spring for a Magneto and a Kick 12W (fix your power at your favorite point) I'd highly recommend it as an improvement. I still use eGo's with Mini's when I want a cool vape. But none will provide the vapor response that even a 350 batt can.
Good luck kachuge.
Slightly unrelated question for the master, Mac. I have a Nemesis, upgraded magnetic switch. Love it. Have a cheap 12 w kick. When I use it with my efest 18650 button top batteries, I can vape at my typical wattage. When I use Sony flat top batteries, (utc4 I believe... Whatever that high drain highly recommended 30a battery is), I have to turn the wattage way down or my pt coil fries. I've had to only use my efests, which is fine with a kick. My thought is that it's just the fasttech kick that doesn't like flat top cells and doesn't regulate it properly.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
Last edited:
I have no idea why the discharge rate should be different. I believe that the SONY is superior to the eFest despite the published rating (30A) claiming comparability. I would say the SONY is discharging appropriately and it's real world performance is better against other batteries that outdo the eFest. But something about the kick clone's read of the batt is awry, I think. If you're making contact, it's reading the mail. And interesting that it's regulating the eFest fine. I'm not at all enamored with any of the kick clone's even the Smok. They all behave differently and in different mods as well. In too many, not at all, where the original will. Dunno. <shrug>
But I always use the low end batt's with the clone kick's. I'd hate to fry a top-flight batt with one of those. I recently lost two AW18490 before I realized the kick was shorting. My advice here…kick the kick. Or dedicate the eFest to it if your results are satisfactory. Try another on the Nemi. I love and pamper mine too.
Good luck.
p.s. I'm master of nada, perpetual student of/for all.
Last edited:
I have no idea why the discharge rate should be different. I believe that the SONY is superior to the eFest despite the published rating (30A) claiming the opposite. I would say the SONY is discharging appropriately and it's real world performance is better against other batteries that outdo the eFest. But something about the kick clone's read of the batt is awry, I think. If you're making contact, it's reading the mail. And interesting that it's regulating the eFest fine. I'm not at all enamored with any of the kick clone's even the Smok. They all behave differently and in different mods as well. In too many, not at all, where the original will. Dunno. <shrug>
But I always use the low end batt's with the clone kick's. I'd hate to fry a top-flight batt with one of those. I recently lost two AW18490 before I realized the kick was shorting. My advice here kick the kick. Or dedicate the eFest to it if your results are satisfactory. Try another on the Nemi. I love and pamper mine too.
Good luck.
Thank you for the input. The Sony is the 30 amp. The efest is 10amp. Sony is all I use in the unregulated version without the kick. Voltage drop under load is 1/2 of the voltage drop under load with the efest. I'm saving for the Evolv kick2. Guess I could get the Evolv kick to replace my pos kick and not have to spend $45. Sure that will play much nicer with my nicer batteries.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
I go through too many batteries to play around. Bought enough of 'em to early on catch a few rejects (AW's) and some runaways. I don't play with the things. I get the best I can handle and trash the kicks if they're sketch. Right now only using the Smok's but I have a few of the others I guess in there in one of them mods somewhere. I'm finding them as they fail apparently. LOL
I guess I should follow your lead and opt for the better gear brook. I may be having more batt issues from running the kicks than I have thought. I wish the thought had occurred to me before the last batch of 490's went toasty.
Good luck.
Right now only using the Smok's but I have a few of the others I guess in there in one of them mods somewhere. I'm finding them as they fail apparently. LOL
Last off topic post from me (for now - though I posit that off topic posts can often help people with an unresolved issue quite effectively and can provide a benefit quite unexpected from a certain thread, but I digress)- you say in the top quote you aren't a fan of the smok kick, but in the 2nd you say that's what you're currently using. Color me puzzled unless I'm misunderstanding, you use the smok kick regularly, but aren't a fan...
Side note. Perhaps the reason the Sony doesn't like the kick off because it is hybrid not pure IMR. Or perhaps it's because, based off baditudes batteries blog, flat tops + magnets aren't safe vaping practice?
Meh, I'll ask baditude one of these days.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
Last edited:
Thank you so much for all the thoughtful feedback and links!
My toolbox is shockingly sparse, so the links will definitely come in handy. Correct, meant to add they're hand wrapped on a 1.4mm screwdriver --- and that's about the sum total of my vapor's toolbox, everything else I use was stolen from my makeup bag
(fingernail clippers and tweezers). No torch. Been trying to make due, but you've convinced me it'll be worth the (I now see) small investment to "man up" and buy some real tools. I gotta say just taking the photo, cropping and blowing it up was a big eye opener. Way easier to see how wonky that leg is once I can actually, you know see it. I might have to start taking photos of all of them before I clip the wires.
The 28g heats up all weird and uneven so he's just sitting here....I did the load up wonky leg, but as you pointed out it starts tasting scorched if I vape at all quickly. So they're both getting scrapped and I'll try again.
Thanks again...I'll be back
Good lyric, I like that. No, I don't like clones in general but the Smok's have given me better performance. Less wonky results like the one you describe.
Good theory. I always suspect some incompatibility between the pair's internal electronics.
[Why do they set 'em so they can only be reset one time when overly discharged? Who would've figured? Don't get me started.]
But I'm no expert there. Batteries are highly specialized business, inasmuch as it can over there (where they assemble). Then again I haven't calibrated hundreds of 'em like I do all else me being so ADD and all. So Baditude would be my bet.
Good luck brook.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
