Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

Status
Not open for further replies.

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
play nice in here

We're all grown ups here. I'm sure we will. This has been one of the more well mannered threads on ECF due to the simple fact we all really do wanna get our vape on. One hundred thousand readers this past year seem to think so. I can't believe any of us would want to jeopardize that or the benefit to those who got help from those readers outside ECF.

I know. I meet a lot of them.

But if I contributed to a misunderstanding, I attempted to correct it. My apologies.

Good luck all.

:)
 

Danrogers

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 28, 2014
561
1,415
Campbell River, BC, Canada
Mac, it was me that started this whole thing with a question about cueing or racking. Now I don't understand all the science behind it, or fully grasp what you and Cig talk about, most of the time. But I do know what I saw when Super_X cued the drill bit through his coil. At first the legs had hot spots, maybe the coil as well, but when he ran the drill bit through 3 times after pulsing the coil and the coil lite up perfectly. He and Cig both said lightly as to not damage the coil. I'm sure super_X could give a better explanation than I but what I saw worked.:2c:

Live long and Vape
 

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
Mac, it was me that started this whole thing with a question about cueing or racking. Now I don't understand all the science behind it, or fully grasp what you and Cig talk about, most of the time. But I do know what I saw when Super_X cued the drill bit through his coil. At first the legs had hot spots, maybe the coil as well, but when he ran the drill bit through 3 times after pulsing the coil and the coil lite up perfectly. He and Cig both said lightly as to not damage the coil. I'm sure super_X could give a better explanation than I but what I saw worked.:2c:

Live long and Vape

Thanks Dan. The technique works and cig is right to write about it. Your observation is spot on. And on some more advanced devices it's almost inevitable due to the angles and gyrations you've got to put the coil through to set it. That observation by SxD was invaluable.

You're good people Dan. Glad you're here.

Enjoy the vape and Happy Holidays.

:)
 

cigatron

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
May 14, 2014
3,213
13,374
clinton ar
Mac, perhaps the answer as to why adequate amounts of oxygen for electrical isolation cannot reach the tangential interface between adjacent turns has to due with the psi of force maintained there by the compressive strain resulting from biased tension winding stress. In other words it may be, and acts like, a gas tight connection. Something to consider but better to discuss offline huh? Call or PM me.


Your friend,

:)cig
 

cigatron

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
May 14, 2014
3,213
13,374
clinton ar
Great looking coils~ I am not quite there YET

Chanel, a couple of things to get you there:

Hold the winder in front of your belly as described in my blog. Tension the wire against the end of the tool before sliding it over to the mandrel. Make sure the wire is up against the end of the tool before winding. All important: angle the wire from the spool for the FIRST wrap as far as you can; actually scraping the end of the tool with the wire for the first wrap. This will ensure that the starter wrap is tight. Keep some angle for all subsequent wraps. This will ensure that your coil has compressive strain in it. It will want to stay that way; all coils touching. How much angle you use after the starter wrap will help determine whether or not raking will be necessary to achieve center out firing. Lesser wire feed angles will most often produce coils that fire center-out with only a pulse or two. Sharper angles (making the spool wire scrape down the sides of existing wraps) will produce coils that hot leg most everytime and will probably have to be raked.

The angle that you're using is what Mac and I have been referring to as "bias", "bias angle" or "wire feed angle" in our previous posts. Along with tension it is the key to obtaining killer coils.

The coils in the pics were all wound with different bias angles based on my experience with those wire gauges and coil diameters. Remember to use only enough tension and bias to achieve the goal; coils touching and equal diameters.

You've come so far Chanel and you're only a step away now! Send some pics our way when you nail one!

Good luck,

:)cig
 

chanelvaps

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 3, 2013
16,028
85,296
Burbank CAlifornia
I have built a couple of great ones (for me) that were worthy of a pic and I should have done that. I will next time just so I can get some constructive criticism. Problem is I am just always in a hurry to get one working. I guess I need to spend more time perfecting them (Mac will tell ya that ;))
Chanel, a couple of things to get you there:

Hold the winder in front of your belly as described in my blog. Tension the wire against the end of the tool before sliding it over to the mandrel. Make sure the wire is up against the end of the tool before winding. All important: angle the wire from the spool for the FIRST wrap as far as you can; actually scraping the end of the tool with the wire for the first wrap. This will ensure that the starter wrap is tight. Keep some angle for all subsequent wraps. This will ensure that your coil has compressive strain in it. It will want to stay that way; all coils touching. How much angle you use after the starter wrap will help determine whether or not raking will be necessary to achieve center out firing. Lesser wire feed angles will most often produce coils that fire center-out with only a pulse or two. Sharper angles (making the spool wire scrape down the sides of existing wraps) will produce coils that hot leg most everytime and will probably have to be raked.

The angle that you're using is what Mac and I have been referring to as "bias", "bias angle" or "wire feed angle" in our previous posts. Along with tension it is the key to obtaining killer coils.

The coils in the pics were all wound with different bias angles based on my experience with those wire gauges and coil diameters. Remember to use only enough tension and bias to achieve the goal; coils touching and equal diameters.

You've come so far Chanel and you're only a step away now! Send some pics our way when you nail one!

Good luck,

:)cig
 

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
I guess the best advice that I could give you all is to follow super_X_drifter's model of discovery when he first set out to investigate the potential of micro coils. If you read back on ECF to the Winter/Spring of last year most everyone had come to the realization that loose irregular spaced winds were not contributing the efficiency or performance that was hoped to be attainable. SxD set out to improve the symmetry and started small and close. As tightness and geometry were optimized performance improved so he was encouraged to get turns closer. Eventually a little bit too much coherence and these coils were incidentally touching or virtually in contact. But close contact wasn't exactly best performance as some were noting the heat effects of shorting, like a bad terminal connection. This fostered a conundrum of discussion on whether it was possible, would work or have any benefit at all as the technology expanded across the vaping universe. Ultimately and thankfully SxD said what the heck and the contact coil was born…


What followed was the evolution of tension that has spawned here. To look back is to see that it's a process so...

Take baby steps! Follow the slow but certain path of discovery for yourself.

Tension or strain will allow you make a coil with turns that are as proximately close as nature will allow. It is that point in physics that opens the magic window to performance. This level of tightness I've defined in layman's terms as adhesion. To say tight is inadequate to describe it. So it's a measure of tightness. A point on the scale of tightness that we're seeking.

So we start out as we would in a new car…slowly and attentively gauging it's performance as we go.

Starting with the first wind, begin with as taught a wrap as you feel may make good contact in the first few turns. It likely will not as we're still forming until actual strain is imparted into the wire. However, it doesn't matter that the first few or more may end up less than perfect. Proceed until successive turns appear to be in close contact. Every few turns, 2 or 3, stop. Examine the coil. See if they unwrap. Look for minute spaces between the turns. If they're clearly visible, you have not reached adhesion.

There is no right or wrong here. It's a matter of training your muscle memory. If you have to follow this process through several winds it's not uncommon. I've trained many folks who find the spot their very first wind. I did rather quickly the first time I found it. Then it took me several weeks to gain consistency. Each one of us has our own physical learning curve.

What I should most emphasize is to wind deliberately and as consistently as possible both in rotating the mandrel and the tension applied. That is the goal, to repeat that experience every time.

But adhesion is not merely a matter of the physical attributes of the product. The objective is actually function. What does it do for our vape? Making this physical and intellectual connection is a very important part of the process of creating a t.m.c. The latter being to train your mind to distinguish the variety in the result. To remain observant.

No need to spell out the result here because it's been talked about endlessly. You will come to know it fondly and intimately. In doing so you will tighten up…not the coil…but the precise point in your mind where winding beyond the threshold of adhesion produces the best result for you. It is the mind body connection I often kid about…be the coil.

Tensioned micro's can be tightened to some amazing levels of heat production. But there is a point of diminishing returns where the energy added to the wire is excessive. A host of negatives may ensue but generally the opposite of the efficiency effects we're looking for, essentially richness of vapor and flavor.

Taking the baby steps upwards across the line of adhesion will with a bit of experience help you isolate the zone that stabilizes your vape. In the process you will discover what variations bring to the table…and also take away.

Best of luck to you all…and get tensioned!

Happy Holidays.

:)
 
Last edited:

Danrogers

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 28, 2014
561
1,415
Campbell River, BC, Canada
Mac, I just started rereading this forum from the beginning, I certainly understand much more and am now learning some of the nuances of building t.m.c.'s from the the journey you and others have made this past year or so. It is interesting to view the progression from the m.c. to the tension micro coil and everything in between with hindsight.

Still waiting for my supplies to arrive, can't wait to put everything I have learned into practice. Then the learning will really begin, but with a good foundation!

Merry Christmas everyone
 

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
Mac, I just started rereading this forum from the beginning, I certainly understand much more and am now learning some of the nuances of building t.m.c.'s from the the journey you and others have made this past year or so. It is interesting to view the progression from the m.c. to the tension micro coil and everything in between with hindsight.

Still waiting for my supplies to arrive, can't wait to put everything I have learned into practice. Then the learning will really begin, but with a good foundation!

Merry Christmas everyone

Thanks Dan, it's been a a challenging but delightful journey. Made only better by the opportunity to be of service here. There is no way I can repay the struggles and trials of those who bore those burdens of discovery before us.

Thanks to all for your efforts and contributions. Enjoy the vape.

Happy Holidays!

:)
 

cigatron

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
May 14, 2014
3,213
13,374
clinton ar
Has anyone tried 29g, 9/10wraps on either a 1.58mm or a 1.75mm. Just wondering if the head can handle 10wraps without shorts etc. also I heard that the Aero tank mini will take regular PT replacement heads, can anyone confirm.

Live long and Vape

Sure Dan, the miniPT & PT use the same heads.

On the wire gauge I would use 30 or 31awg because of your battery limitations. Evods and Twists, right? Going to larger wire with more wraps, even just up to 29, will slow your heat up time substantially with those batts in my experience. Slower heat up= faster gunking too. But yes, 10/9, 29awg will fit.

:)cig
 

pjmarkert

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 13, 2013
124
116
Lake View, NY
I use the old single coil PT heads with Aerotank. Just put a second silicone cup gasket on top of the one already on the chimney facing the same way as the first one. pt2head.jpg

You can get extra silicone gaskets at http://www.lightningvapes.com/products/silicone-top-cap-10-pack-for-protank-evod-style-coil-heads
 
Last edited:

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
I use the old single coil PT heads with Aerotank. Just put a second silicone cup gasket on top of the one already on the chimney facing the same way as the first one.View attachment 397030

You can get extra silicone gaskets at Silicone Top Caps for Protank / Evod Style Coil Heads | Lightning Vapes

Work equally well as the aftermarket dual coil (open slot) replacement heads LV has on hand there. That is, with only a single coil installed.

Nice to see ya PJ.

Good luck all and Happy Holidays.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
Has anyone tried 29g, 9/10wraps on either a 1.58mm or a 1.75mm. Just wondering if the head can handle 10wraps without shorts etc. also I heard that the Aero tank mini will take regular PT replacement heads, can anyone confirm.

Live long and Vape

A 29 AWG 9/10 wrap on 1.778 mm (#50 wire gauge, .07") is the recommended diameter to find that happy center of performance for the Kanger ProTank. It let's you thoroughly fill the 1.8 mm slot with a thoroughly matched wick such as Nextel XC-132 or simply cotton with a rock solid stable termination if you install the coil while on the bit as you do your final set of the leads.

Gain the necessary motor memory and practice this to a point of precision and you will have about the most stable clearomizer install possible. Normally a 10-12 wrap coil would be the maximum. But with precision symmetry and alignment at set, you can conceivable get this…


attachment.php



…into this…


386282d1414900416-protank-microcoil-discussion-img_1235b.jpg


(The Aero btw, at that point, and it ran great!)

Good luck Dan.

Happy Holidays all.

:)
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1238a.jpg
    IMG_1238a.jpg
    40.5 KB · Views: 860

crg31953

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 29, 2014
552
1,678
Mayville, WI
Work equally well as the aftermarket dual coil (open slot) replacement heads LV has on hand there. That is, with only a single coil installed.

Nice to see ya PJ.

Good luck all and Happy Holidays.

:)

And I just ordered some 4mm I.D. silicone hose to do the same thing! :facepalm:

Vape On Friends!
 

cigatron

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
May 14, 2014
3,213
13,374
clinton ar
Cig are u saying with a Vision Spinner 2 using 29 gauge is not an option if I am aiming for 1.8 - 2ohms. I thought the Spinner would do okay, I can run up to 4.5 volts. Guess I'm a little confused.

Sure Dan, you can run it on the spinner; I used to use those. What I and many others noticed about the heavier gauge wire with those types of batts was slower heat up and accelerated gunking. Slower heatup at a given res=shorter batt life and gunking.

The specs say your spinner can do 2.5 amps or so but not continuous unless fully charged and def not at 4.5v with a 1.8 ohm build. That's 11.25 watts. Those batts are only good for about 7-7.5 watts continuous because the kick circuit is robbing current to develope higher voltage and there just isn't enough current available to maintain it very long. When I moved to the Innokin MVP2 (11watts max) things got a whole lot better. Even better still with my IPV2 (50w). Mind you that I'm talking about exactly that same kanger build in the same device. Having excess battery capacity is a huge boon to performance with any device imo Dan.

That said I'm still carrying my trusty Innokin VV3 (11watts max) around during the mornings while cutting firewood. Its' good for about 3ml at 9watts.

:)cig
 

Danrogers

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 28, 2014
561
1,415
Campbell River, BC, Canada
Thanks Cig, so what you are saying is for me at least 30g is the way to go even with my egos. I thought volts x ohms = watts, 4v x 1.8 ohms = 7.23 watts. I guess I was wrong.

This is what I based my calculations on.. Mac answering Maz


"Originally Posted by Mazinny
Yeah i was gonna order 29 also, but there is a 4 to 5 week wait at Temco. I will order it after i have found my preferred build with 30.
It's turned out to be a damned good spec for the Protank. More versatile and rugged than 30 AWG. However the latter at 9-turns on .07" (~1.75-78mm) 4.0V, 8W @ 2.0Ω pretty much defines the optimal center of production for the design. Right smack in the middle of Kanger's 2.2 and 1.8 heads. The 2.4-5 and now 1.5's being the outer boundaries. I'll continue to post validated (3 build confirmations) of both conventional and tension wind results (legs included) to expand the resistance signpost tables and hope others may decide to contribute on this thread. To newcomers having this information is vital to fast-track their quitting and adaptation."

Where did I go wrong.
 

cigatron

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
May 14, 2014
3,213
13,374
clinton ar
Thanks Cig, so what you are saying is for me at least 30g is the way to go even with my egos. I thought volts x ohms = watts, 4v x 1.8 ohms = 7.23 watts. I guess I was wrong.

This is what I based my calculations on.. Mac answering Maz


"Originally Posted by Mazinny
Yeah i was gonna order 29 also, but there is a 4 to 5 week wait at Temco. I will order it after i have found my preferred build with 30.
It's turned out to be a damned good spec for the Protank. More versatile and rugged than 30 AWG. However the latter at 9-turns on .07" (~1.75-78mm) 4.0V, 8W @ 2.0Ω pretty much defines the optimal center of production for the design. Right smack in the middle of Kanger's 2.2 and 1.8 heads. The 2.4-5 and now 1.5's being the outer boundaries. I'll continue to post validated (3 build confirmations) of both conventional and tension wind results (legs included) to expand the resistance signpost tables and hope others may decide to contribute on this thread. To newcomers having this information is vital to fast-track their quitting and adaptation."

Where did I go wrong.


Watts= Volts x Volts / Ohms (in the above quote:8w = 4 x 4 / 2 )

Other helpful formulas:

Watts = Volts x Amps

Amps= Volts / Ohms: ( this one is helpful for determining how hard you're pressing the batt for current based on the res and voltage your targeting. I usually don't ask the batt to put out more than 60% of it's max current or 75% of it's max voltage rating with spinners or twists so they vape consistently over a longer period of time).

Hope this helps

:)cig
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread