Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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MacTechVpr

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For anyone that is interested in coil winding jigs, I came across one similar in design to the jig posted by beckdg:

Wrapping a 1/16" micro coil for Kanger head - YouTube

Also, a little after the 5 minute mark, he uses some hospital cotton padding for his wick...although it does appear to be a little thinner than what I currently have on hand.

Both very cool videos. And as I acknowledged to beck early on, I can see some applications for ribbon wire particularly. But I have to say, I am really, really, liking direct torsion of Kanthal now as a means to impart kinetic force into the metal. While a bend with mild tension may form wire, a torsion or bend under tension imparts the energy that heat would, and conveys that energy directly and substantially to the form. Consider the effects on more substantial metal components. Formed steel retains more rigidity. But torsion[ed] steel contains more memory, i.e. a torsion[ed] spring. Both may be perfectly appropriate to helical elements. Perhaps the issue might better be posited to ask which might better help conserve the function of ("the effect") of vaporization we're attempting to induce with a contact coil, rigidity or metal memory?

For the above reasons I'd tend to favor, personally, something more like darkzero's substantial jig device or similar mock-up over any other simple hand-held appliance including a screwdriver. You can impart more energy into the wire. And that's important in thicker gauges. For clearo's winding off the spool in recent weeks is working famously to my genuine amazement. So much so that I've just about foregone the use of any additional tool this past week or so for winding other than the spool itself and the mandrel. Initially I didn't think you could impart that much resistance by hand-holding a spool. Then I tried anchoring the wire passing with the through-hole in the spool. This helped but proved unnecessary. The tension is applied by both a combination of spool resistance and hand/finger pressure. And much more can be applied than I first expected, although not to the point of breaking 30g as I have with a screwdriver and forceps. I suppose it certainly can happen. An advantage perhaps? Closer to the limit but not exceeding it? To me this translates to a more efficient utility.

As to the fella's cotton material it appears to be common gauze, probably quite similar to the dental gauze I mentioned a few posts back. Excellent stuff. But, I believe the backing cotton you found may be better for wicking as it's not threaded or woven. The natural alignment of the cotton grain would be better for flow. The gauze for higher saturation. The first potentially more useful as a wick. The latter, a top wick. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for the images!

Good luck.

:)
 
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M_DuBb716

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I'd really love to build one those jigs, seeing as my coils are coming out sloppy when I hand wind. Still vaping the 2 coils I built last night on my PT 1 & 2, switching back and forth - not the best vape but its still good, and great flavor.

Think I had "Vaper's Tongue" for about 2 weeks straight for some reason and I think I'm just getting over it, that seems to happen to me a lot lol
 

TafkanX

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I made a coil jig based off of the Dark Zero coil jig Trayce posted about in another thread and it's made wrapping coils a breeze:

usupe9ez.jpg


Just tighten down the end of the kanthal under the screw and start wrapping around the post (a finishing nail which is approximately 14 gauge in diameter) and clip off when you're done.

In other news, I've been experimenting with a vertical microcoil (28g 10 wraps on 14g for ~1.6 ohms) for the last week or so now and I've been quite pleased with the results. Whenever it starts getting gunked up I just run a paperclip through the center to clear the airway (don't even need to disassemble the head to do this, in fact you could even do it with the protank fully assembled). Seems to need rewicking every four days or so.

I'll snap some pictures next time I pull it apart.
 
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Jellyfish

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.... I am really, really, liking direct torsion of Kanthal now as a means to impart kinetic force into the metal. While a bend with mild tension may form wire, a torsion or bend under tension imparts the energy that heat would, and conveys that energy directly and substantially to the form. Consider the effects on more substantial metal components. Formed steel retains more rigidity. But torsion[ed] steel contains more memory, i.e. a torsion[ed] spring. Both may be perfectly appropriate to helical elements. Perhaps the issue might better be posited to ask which might better help conserve the function of ("the effect") of vaporization we're attempting to induce with a contact coil, rigidity or metal memory?

For the above reasons I'd tend to favor, personally, something more like darkzero's substantial jig device or similar mock-up over any other simple hand-held appliance including a screwdriver. You can impart more energy into the wire. And that's important in thicker gauges.

Mac, thanks for the clear explanation regarding your position on tensioned contact coils. Up until you posted this, I kept wondering what all of the hubbub was about regarding your proclivity for them, but you seem to have made a strong and logical case for them in such a manner that even a dolt like me could understand.
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac, thanks for the clear explanation regarding your position on tensioned contact coils. Up until you posted this, I kept wondering what all of the hubbub was about regarding your proclivity for them, but you seem to have made a strong and logical case for them in such a manner that even a dolt like me could understand.

Thanks jelly. I knew you'd understand. No dolt you!

It really isn't so much about my preferences. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I would like to create the tightest build at all times. That implies some type of mechanical device, such as a jig, for optimal results. There are circumstances with small form factors like RDA's for REO's where sub-millimeter contact coils are most desirable; and, a blunt needle is hugely preferable for winding and localization. However, these examples are not necessarily practical for all of us. And the topic here is the clearo, particularly the Protank. I've tried to keep my contributions on ECF focused on the typical vaper trying to get past the sloppy build. We need them to join the ranks, quickly, not in months or years. We need their family, friends, etc. pleased to see their efficient success. I'd like to see that happen. It will mean a lot to the community. I believe we need to think more about them. It behooves us. I'm trying to write for and to that audience.

If we can't accomplish that we'll soon just be stuck with each other! :blink:

But I gotta admit my exuberance often overtakes my discipline and I keep bouncing' off the electric fence. So every once in a while I try and put things back on track. At the same time, remember that we all have goals were trying to accomplish.

Good luck!

:)

If you're ridin' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure its still there. —Will Rogers
 
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MrOcelot

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Wrapped a 11/10 on a 5/64. 2.2 ohms. This diameter is nice. Some of my evod heads will allow the 5/64 to drop all the way down. Hitting like a freight train no leaking or gurgles so far. I found I needed a flavor wick with 1/16th. I prefer No flavor wick. I think I have found my new favorite in these tanks. I hope this continues through the whole tank.
 

MacTechVpr

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I made a coil jig based off of the Dark Zero coil jig Trayce posted about in another thread and it's made wrapping coils a breeze...I'll snap some pictures next time I pull it apart.

Yeah…but, but, will it wind one of these???

TWISTED BUNNIES: Vertical Quad Coil Build at .20

Man, you have made tremendous progress since the first of your posts that I acknowledged. :thumbs:

It is addictive isn't it? But making really tight efficient coils is the answer for the tank.

Good luck tag!

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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MrO, I'm not a pure scientist here or engineer. An informed layman and trying to become more so. But it's a good question. I think in physics it appears it's often a compromise. You either build rigidity into the metal or tension (elasticity). I'm thinking at the moment that for clearomizers it's preferable that the coil wants to retain its shape so to speak. Pulsing the coil with tweezer pressure at the set will provide the adequate oxidation to complete the process of compressing the contact coil as much as practicable. But…some of these tension builds I'm torching and quenching once off the bit before I put them in drippers because I want to see their durability (one way or the other).

It's not unusual to see many perfect contact coils loose the close contact after a time. They still function efficiently largely due to the symmetry and oxidation but they're not microcoils in the sense that we talk about them.

That's my perspective at the moment. So I want to see results and I'm scouring the forum and elsewhere regularly for posts by folks like darkzero to see what these winds do over time. Whether these builders change or tweak them or you happen to come up with something different. For ideas on possible builds, methods and some explanations thereof, threads like…

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/389074-micro-coil-rba-your-reo.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...271-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...st-pictures-your-working-wick-coil-setup.html

Hope this helps somewhat. We're in the process, all of us, of applying all of this pre-existing technology and methods to a whole new ball game.

Good luck!

:)
 

TafkanX

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Yeah…but, but, will it wind one of these???

That thing is crazy... I must build one! I do actually have an Igo-W laying around that could support the build, just waiting to get my hands on a mech before I get too crazy with it.

Man, you have made tremendous progress since the first of your posts that I acknowledged. :thumbs:

Haha, thanks! I'm a quick learner and I get bored easily so I need to keep trying new things to stay interested. I think I've probably gotten the protank down to where I'm consistently satisfied with the output and will need to start looking elsewhere for new horizons (I.e. actual rebuildables). May investigate the protank 3 for rebuilding once I get my hands on one.

It is addictive isn't it? But making really tight efficient coils is the answer for the tank.

Good luck tag!

It really is, yes. Keep up the good work recruiting new tinkerers and making the leap to rebuilding more accessible and less intimidating!

Edit: needed at least 10 characters of text outside the quote
 

MacTechVpr

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It is addictive isn't it? But making really tight efficient coils is the answer for the tank.

It really is, yes. Keep up the good work recruiting new tinkerers and making the leap to rebuilding more accessible and less intimidating!

You got my number, Taf. Thanks. Xakly what, I'm tryin'.

Yeah and that twisted build is mad crazy. But I'm doin' it. Workin' it for the Helios. Scary.

Wish me luck!

:)
 
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Jellyfish

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In my never ending attempt to over-complicate matters, I've decided to postpone my 'undercast cotton padding' project and instead devote some time to building a tensioned coil winding jig because I am beginning to see the Gospel according to Mac. It is based on the darkzero concept, but employs the use of a crank for winding the coil and a mini-vise for applying tension to the wrap.

coil_jig_1.jpg

The crank/handle and extension will be placed through a supporting 2X4 and then secured to the mandrel block. I'll probably use fender washers (or similar) to alleviate any lateral slop. Instead of contouring the mandrel block, I intend to just add some offset with flat washers and secure the wire with either a screw or a bolt and T-nut.

I'm hoping that a relatively constant tension will be applied by using a mini-vise that will be attached to the base. I'll also probably line the vise jaws with something like electrical tape or a piece of inner tube to avoid deforming the wire, but that will be decided as things progress.

In operation, the wire will be attached to the mandrel block and then fed through the mini-vise that will subsequently be tightened down. The crank will be turned with my right hand and the wire will be guided onto the mandrel with the left. And right now I can hear Mac screaming at me and telling me to just use some GD forceps to apply the tension, but I shall remain undeterred.

I've already got the mini-vise, so if this thing is an utter failure I'm only out the cost of the crank and extension. Most of the other parts are laying around the house, although I'll probably need to spend a couple of bucks at the hardware store. But the entertainment value, whether this doohickey works or not, should be priceless! But at this point I am optimistic in its' success and am in the process of writing my Rube Goldberg award acceptance speech.
 

MacTechVpr

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In my never ending attempt to over-complicate matters, I've decided to postpone my 'undercast cotton padding' project and instead devote some time to building a tensioned coil winding jig because I am beginning to see the Gospel according to Mac. It is based on the darkzero concept, but employs the use of a crank for winding the coil and a mini-vise for applying tension to the wrap.

View attachment 284177

The crank/handle and extension will be placed through a supporting 2X4 and then secured to the mandrel block. I'll probably use fender washers (or similar) to alleviate any lateral slop. Instead of contouring the mandrel block, I intend to just add some offset with flat washers and secure the wire with either a screw or a bolt and T-nut.

I'm hoping that a relatively constant tension will be applied by using a mini-vise that will be attached to the base. I'll also probably line the vise jaws with something like electrical tape or a piece of inner tube to avoid deforming the wire, but that will be decided as things progress.

In operation, the wire will be attached to the mandrel block and then fed through the mini-vise that will subsequently be tightened down. The crank will be turned with my right hand and the wire will be guided onto the mandrel with the left. And right now I can hear Mac screaming at me and telling me to just use some GD forceps to apply the tension, but I shall remain undeterred.

I've already got the mini-vise, so if this thing is an utter failure I'm only out the cost of the crank and extension. Most of the other parts are laying around the house, although I'll probably need to spend a couple of bucks at the hardware store. But the entertainment value, whether this doohickey works or not, should be priceless! But at this point I am optimistic in its' success and am in the process of writing my Rube Goldberg award acceptance speech.

Ohhh nooo, don't abandon the cast cotton! Now I'll have to find it! :D

I've been visualizing something similar to your hand-crank system. Some time back, a fella did a similar concept to tension wind ribbon cable on ceramic wick. I couldn't find it for you today jelly, with the advanced search capabilities we have it's a challenge unto itself to figure out what tags the bot picks up. Certainly nothing like ceramic, jig or ribbon wire. That would be too easy, i guess. Anyway I see some way to affix a spool of wire directly as the feed and a means to apply and adjust drag to the spool, as it feeds out to the crank. Perhaps as simple as a pair of rubber grommet like often found on camera tripods and metal spacer to impart resistance on the spool. Damn, now you got me headin' for that electric fence again.

Or you could just try this (for all the little ones up past their bedtime)…

IMG_0567a.jpg

It unfortunately works nowhere near as well for ribbon wire without a great deal of pressure and likely ultimately, heat. But it does help to start the process. And I was unable to go most torching in my flat wire builds tonite.

Me personally, if I were going to mechanize for round wire, I'd get a 16th in. rod and install it as a bit on my battery powered drill. Tear off a couple of dozen coils at a time right off the spool under tension. Separate 'em off the end of the wind in as many turns as I need, as I need 'em. And here I said I didn't want to be a fly fisherman.

Good luck!

:)
 

Jellyfish

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Anyway I see some way to affix a spool of wire directly as the feed and a means to apply and adjust drag to the spool, as it feeds out to the crank. Perhaps as simple as a pair of rubber grommet like often found on camera tripods and metal spacer to impart resistance on the spool. Damn, now you got me headin' for that electric fence again.

Yea Mac, I had a similar idea of using an open reel type fishing reel with a decent drag as the feed device (deep sea reel?). But my fishing experience is very limited and I've only used lighter duty spinning type reels. If the mini-vise tensioner bombs out, I may scrounge up something cheap on eBay and give it a shot.

Me personally, if I were going to mechanize for round wire, I'd get a 16th in. rod and install it as a bit on my battery powered drill. Tear off a couple of dozen coils at a time right off the spool under tension. Separate 'em off the end of the wind in as many turns as I need, as I need 'em. And here I said I didn't want to be a fly fisherman.

I love the idea of the metal rod for the mandrel and have been to the K&S site a couple of times to investigate their steel rod offerings. That is probably the direction that I'll eventually be taking, but right now the Ace Hardware drill bits that I've got (and been using) will be my starting point. They are not ideal, but they're cheap and readily available. The battery operated drill is an interesting approach for coil winding and I can see it working if a low rotational speed could be maintained.

How am I ever going to be able to move on to any other rebuildable if Mac and Jelly keep coming up with all these new PT coil ideas....you are killing me guys...lol

Hey Moody, don't lose sight of the fact that a microcoil is still a microcoil, regardless of the device that it's placed in.
 

MacTechVpr

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Yea Mac, I had a similar idea of using an open reel type fishing reel with a decent drag as the feed device (deep sea reel?). But my fishing experience is very limited and I've only used lighter duty spinning type reels. If the mini-vise tensioner bombs out, I may scrounge up something cheap on eBay and give it a shot.

How am I ever going to be able to move on to any other rebuildable if Mac and Jelly keep coming up with all these new PT coil ideas....you are killing me guys...lol

But fishermen make better coil rebuilders:D....

Sorry gentlemen, I wasn't trying to be a Finatic about this.

:D
 
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