Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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MacTechVpr

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thank YOU, kind sir.

appreciate the stats/table. priceless info.

Beck thanks again. One of my main reasons for being here is safety. To get people through this trial and hopefully rebuilding asap to regain control of their lives. I went through hell for a couple of weeks realizing the technologies that could possibly be brought to bear; and, not seeing them as broadly applied here as they could be. It was utterly frustrating. And the health consequences for months, or maybe years, of dealing with badly vaping devices was unthinkable. I can't see putting others through that. So hopefully, I won't screw it up and be able to put something useful for most on the table to cut short that struggle. At least that's been my thinking.

Which brings me to the subject of resistance and why I focus on knowing basics and these tables. Well power safety is really very important. We shouldn't be careless about it and know better what and why were building for…so as not to put ourselves in unqualified risk. I had two scary incidents the first few months vaping. Both runaway batteries. Yeah, I know, I know, that's not supposed to happen with IMR. It does! The wildest…a new Sentinel M16, powerful. They must have been inspired when they poured the brass and steel for this one. It's not a batt, it's a space shuttle engine. Well, I dropped a brand new AW 18490 into this new mod and it went red hot ballistic in seconds firing like the beast that it is. I have a thermal resistant cloth alongside my computer tower, managed to grab it and release the bottom cap as I juggled it like a hot potato out of the area. I spent a weekend taking this thing apart and putting it back together, metering it in every possible manner. Nothing. Until I thought to try and check the battery charge. It wouldn't. It apparently experienced an internal short on first fire.

Moral of that story: I never test fire a new device with a hot new battery!

My charger is the sacrificial lamb and diagnostician.

(I still retain the battery if anyone qualified has any interest in analyzing it.)

Much of what we take for granted is totally unusual and poorly understood by many new vapers. So I just encourage everyone to pitch in and shine a light where they can. And to try our best to be sure the battery is good and fully charged when we light that torch.

I thank you for your appreciation if I've succeeded in some small measure and I'm grateful for your tolerance when I pee on the electric fence.

Good luck beck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Here is a sum-up of the most pertinent validations I have made for KPT (addendum in blue)…

32AWG, 7/6 1.75mm i.d. m.c. = 2.2Ω √
32AWG, 5/4 2mm i.d., loose m.c. = 1.85Ω √
30AWG, 11/10 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.1Ω √ #292 MrOcelot
30AWG, 10/9 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.04Ω √
30AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. =2.01 √
30AWG, 8/7 1.75mm i.d. m.c. = 1.85Ω √
30AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d. m.c. = 1.81√
30AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d. t.m.c. = 1.73Ω √
30AWG, 7/6 1.75mm i.d., m.c. = 1.78 √
30AWG, 7/6 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.57Ω √
29AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.92Ω √
29AWG, 8/7 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.52Ω √
29AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.40Ω √
28AWG, 12/11, 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.3Ω #241 vdaedalus
28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.62Ω
28AWG, 9/8, 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.49Ω
28AWG, 8/7 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.3Ω

m.c.= conventional contact coil
t.m.c. = torsioned (or tensioned) contact coil
(n.b. A mechanically wound coil is not necessarily tensioned. Preferably tension adequate to induce turn-adhesion must have been applied for its use to be inferred or reported. Not merely external heat or forming pressure. Thank you, as there will be resistance implications.)

Hope this info is helpful in targeting your temp sets. Let me know your validations please (or successful improvement so we can test it!).

Good luck all.
 

MacTechVpr

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Thanks again Mac!! These tables are so valuable. One question though..

What exactly am i looking for in an incidental ground? 1 of the legs making contact where they shouldn't? An overlap in my wraps? Thanks again :)

Short answer: in your case M, and for most of us including me (when I think I have, rather than having observed it)…Not terminating tightly opposed to the legs' exit path at rotation.

The most commonly occurring, not an electrical expert by any means, I'd say:

1. Positive short at termination (leg hanger);
2. Positive slipping at termination;
3. Positive short on cup assembly wall;
4. Coil short on cup assembly wall;
5. Crossed leg, neg. short (no load, more obvious);
6. End turn overlap, or discontinuity (hot leg);
7. Turn discontinuity (for m.c., hot turns);
8. Various other nightmares we haven't dreamed of; and,
9. Top cap short.

The last being very common if you don't locate the coil as per the techniques suggested since the Metalhed's thread (at the bottom of the slot). We have that covered, thankfully. And largely hot legs too if the microcoil is correctly oriented and test fired before wicking, you have a pretty good chance of catching this and identifying any other problem (including a hot leg by checking each out as batt is pulsed) before the tank is used. This includes overlaps which are manually introduced but really do show up when you do the final test burn, and we should detect them there. Use power more approximating what you intend to use at least briefly. A hot leg or turn should clear by compressing the coil. They don't and perhaps there's contact towards termination.

So what does that leave? Problems with termination. And these are harder to detect. The first though should be checked all the time and that is the leg hanger. It can show anytime and should be suspected any time there is any variation in res. You really need to look at each of these. And if you're not using some type of magnification, you're likely to miss most of them. Particularly the ones down the cup. It can be just a little flash near the grommet at low power even though the rest of the coil glows normal. The little hidden ones like that are often leg hangers. Sometime a slight bend above the termination point that barely grazes the cup wall. Those get you scratching your head wondering why resistance changes.

A variation of the hanger is a pos slightly slipping out of termination. If it tested correctly at set, the pos end turn is now possibly loose turn too, as some of the tension in that leg has been released. This requires lookin' under the hood and test fire if you suspect it. If you keep thinkin' you missed the button, you might have one. Pretty soon flooding. If you pull as you snip 'em they can snap back under the grommet. Too much tension as you twirl 'em and I've had one insert itself into the grommet with intermittent and no termination. Being sure that legs are bound but secured by the grommet is essential, not forgetting that bulging can affect airflow.

One of the likeliest causes of m.c. discontinuity is coil skewing and severely handicaps efficiency. And it happens in the set. It can only be corrected by resetting the alignment and tension of the legs at termination. So a pain. But it goes like this. Your coil is fine. You've pushed grommet in part or all and you push in the pin for final termination. Boom, too hard. That's all it takes to pull the pos. out or both and skew the coil. That's why I referred to it as the trigger pull. These last few steps of making sure the legs are tightly tensioned and exiting in the direction of exit of rotation from the coil to termination are critical to prevent the incidental contact of cross or side shorting.

We're talking mm here but that's all it takes to be off to have that contact. Why I've been emphasizing tightening the build with forceps as you terminate. Yes, definitely as beck reminded a few posts back, kink that neg leg up to stabilize the coil immediately, first step. Then patiently set in the grommet, at least in part, until you get a feel for what that does to your coil orientation. There's always a slight twist in the wire resulting from the wind. Sometimes it presents as you set. It may take a slight relocation of the neg, pos or both under the grommet in one direction or another and re-tentioning to get it to set straight. Here's where a tension wind helps because it's going to try to return at this point to the position in was wound as you make this adjustment, rather than tweak with the flathead, pull, tweak some more, etc., etc.

Often the inclination is to just try to force the skew out with pulse, compression and adjustment of the coil position. I've done it both ways. I don't think the forced set is as durable. I may be wrong on this but I'm going by the impression that they tend to gunk sooner. I labored with that for a while. Why do some coils get consistently uniformly charred? I don't believe that coils wound and installed in a more natural tensioned state with less handling, torching or forcing are as prone vs. the minimal uniform micro-surfaced annealing and cohesion that forms when you pulse. Having to force shape and position to overcome skew, rather than leg alignment and tensioning kind of blows the build.

Finally, the main cause of all of these things is…using a 510 bottom air clearomizer tank, since skewing that silly grommet can ruin your set every time you put that thing on or take it off. And skewing of either the pin, grommet or both is typically what happens. A reason I was concerned that recent substitute grommets and the new Kanger silicone both have more slip with moisture than the original with its rougher composite texture. However, having the coil fairly balanced fighting to retain it's shape and legs tightly tensioned at opposite 180 deg. is going to resist this change. And if there is some skew, the build more likely to tolerate it without too adverse an effect. Slam your 510 on your mod, all bets are off.

Why for me it's a love-hate relationship with the KPT. It has its limitations. But we have an advantage if we pay attention to the geometry of the thing. Like playing pool, you gots to know where to hit the bumpers (and when you don't), when to hit it tight or softly let it down low and there's no English where the legs are concerned.

Some thoughts M. Any suggestions, improvements, errors detected, etc. will be noted and appreciated.

Good luck.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Thanks once again Mac for some amazing info. I'm pretty sure it was a hanger, I tried to fix it and now my evic is showing 2.0ohms. By the way, dropped my eVic last night and cracked the control head/screen. Now my tank doesn't "stop" when I screw it down all the way, if I screw too tight the crack spreads. No backup, ugh..

Yikes, sorry to hear that. In a scrap three lowest $ sources I know for the CH…

Joyetech eVic Electronic Cigarette Control Head

Joyetech eVic Control Head Assembly

Evic Control Head


…in case you have to go there. Backstop here…

Joyetech eVic Easy Head Assembly

Unfortunately, I go through these testing Protanks. And they're not off on resistance, just quirky about things like moisture and hangers. <shrug>

Good luck.

:)
 

M_DuBb716

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Thanks for the link, Mac. At least mine still works/fires, and the crack isn't over the screen's display.

By the way. I think my problem with the hanger wire, might be because I don't snip my legs. I usually twist the ends of wire back and forth until they snap, and they usually snap right where they need to. But not always. I might use nail clippers on tonight's build..
:p
I think I might try another 28gauge build tonight. Maybe 11 wraps? I really liked the flavor with 10 wraps though, maybe I can get higher than 1.1ohm this time, if I try that again
 

MacTechVpr

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I built a vertical twisted 32 gauge @ 1.2 ohms last night but I can't get it to wick properly. It is airier on draw than a horizontal which I really like, I just need to figure out how to get it to wick fast enough that I don't get dry hits.

Short answer: Two much muscle for the carburation, you need a turbo for that rig. Your design calls for faster wicking (or reserve).

At least that's been my impression reading the hit-or-miss results on the KPT vertical thread. Also some discussion elsewhere about too much of the coil dimension residing higher than the juice or media for the extra power to make a difference. I could not find the post. Stands to reason for me as gravity would concentrate saturation at the bottom of the coil

Ah, what others have reported and I've observed with cotton in general. You have a good coil firing hot, good vaporization area and good airflow but you drain the cotton too fast. If you pack more cotton and/or more densely you may get the saturation but it doesn't wick quickly enough from one part to another to avoid drying out. In other words, you've bumped up against the limit of cotton's efficiency.

Logic would suggest that if you go smaller with a wick and/or add power the juice supply must keep up with it. The delivery or supply must be there. And that should guide your wick/wire/res/power/orientation selections. The device points to the solution. Exceed the design and you encounter its limitations. It's not necessarily something you're doing wrong, is the point. It's important to make the distinction to make the necessary deductions.

If you stay horizontal with your setup you could try Ekowool, and more of it (larger Ø), it saturates almost as well as cotton. Once it breaks in, really saturates with time, it bulks up like cotton. And it's silica, a relatively loosely packed threadlike twinning along which the fluid can flow with velocity. Ekowool is braided and packed tighter so the flow is faster. Even faster still with it's more precisely woven tendrils is Nextel ceramic braiding, although it doesn't have the capacity to saturate or bulk as much as Ekowool. In a tank faster rules once you have the coil geometry to deliver power efficiently.

This is where it gets interesting f1ve. Let's spend less time discussing what works best that we do, or what we like best instead of observing, as I try to do here, which things work best at what. And I try to echo or confirm only observations or results by others on this forum and elsewhere I've been able to replicate. As with Ekowool wicking I've tested on four Immortalizers snaking a bit more around the inner walls. So the question is what tools or components do best, at what and how. These are the kinds of observations that get us where we want to be. In this case, there is no one perfect wick media for the Protank. Power or our temperature preference target, for the particular juice and our objectives of flavor and vapor are the criteria that should direct the solution. And perhaps for people like me with flavor sensitivity cotton is not in the KPT. It requires refreshing too frequently. For you, if you push the power envelope the performance may suffer. In both instances more frequent change is likely to be necessary. That's where the synthetics are interesting for their performance potential, both wicking and durability. And they are worth the time to investigate.

Sometimes intense flavor and vapor on a KPT at 20W and a tank fill run out inside a half-hour may be fun, a challenge and rewarding. Me, I've tried to focus the conversation on the underlying basics we need to just keep the damned persnickety things runnin'. But if you want to go there f1ve I'll do that thread widja.

On this thread we have a serious advantage, a proper electrical coil configuration. The methods to reproduce it consistently and install it in place without compromising its geometry. Once there, its much easier to apply any wick media variation we wish. And it's this I believe most of all that expands our flavor and vapor horizons substantially.

Oh, and try to keep it horiz., will ya? Crikey.

Good luck exploring f1ve.

:)
 

f1vefour

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I abandoned the vertical, I had already figured it was indeed too much horsepower. I think a 2.5 ohm or so vertical coil could be wicked properly because I did actually get the wicking problem resolved. The vapor was too intense without proper airflow.

The way I wicked it was with two separate pieces of cotton, one going on one side of the coil with the end coming out one of the liquid channels then the same on the other side.
 

MacTechVpr

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I abandoned the vertical, I had already figured it was indeed too much horsepower. I think a 2.5 ohm or so vertical coil could be wicked properly because I did actually get the wicking problem resolved. The vapor was too intense without proper airflow.

The way I wicked it was with two separate pieces of cotton, one going on one side of the coil with the end coming out one of the liquid channels then the same on the other side.

Going to have to try that, if I'm understanding you correctly. I've often wondered if perhaps packing a sliver of cotton all around the juice channel might help ease or stop the seeping past the head flange into the threading. This disrupts 510 airflow and eventually queers resistance as well.

The Protank's sore thumb is the GROMMET. Bulges messing up air and doesn't ground reliably. Not nearly as moisture resistant or repellant as it could/should be. The composition just seems off even as an insulator. It constitutes the bulk of the KPT's problems I believe. The sub's from Lighting are only a tad better but seem to slip more readily exacerbating termination problems by making results variable and dubious. I haven't tried the new Kanker heads yet. Haven't even seen one yet down here in SFL. They should just make such parts available. Very shoddy industry with horrible ethics towards consumers. A wonder we buy this crap. I'm kickin' in here f1ve to help us survive! this nonsense. Myself included!

I'm still working through the permutations of designs seeking their advantages, potentials and foibles. I've already found some great long term candidates like the Trident/M16 Sentinel which is an incredible powerful device exceeding any expectations I ever had. The Kayfun's may be prove likewise. I'm still eyeing aty's and ceramic wick. So once the testing and writing is well underway, I'm downsizing to what works. Let others play. They can build all the hidden shorts and bad media into all the pre-pack high-ohm multi-micro cartridges they want. I'm not buyin'.

No more monopoly big 5 tobacco or the same made out of ecig regulated cartels.

I would make designers and builders out of all of us!

Good luck.

:)
 
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LReyes66

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Hey guys... Ive moved on to rba and RDA but have been trying to rebuild protank coils for my girlfriend. I've successfully made many different coils and most of them are 28g micro coils ranging between 1.3-1.5ohm. The problem I'm having I guess would be wicking. There's been many times I'd feel like ive wicked it right after realizing first hand that if I put too much it will have no airflow and hard to take draws, if too little cotton then it floods/leaks. Suggestions?

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LReyes66

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You definitely can pack a little cotton around the edges of the coil chamber, it's what I did.

Do you have a KFL+? I searched all morning for one and gave up, best I could come up with was $124 shipped and that is just too much when I know they can be had for $99.

Just get a Russian 91. Love it more then my kfl+ :D

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f1vefour

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Hey guys... Ive moved on to rba and RDA but have been trying to rebuild protank coils for my girlfriend. I've successfully made many different coils and most of them are 28g micro coils ranging between 1.3-1.5ohm. The problem I'm having I guess would be wicking. There's been many times I'd feel like ive wicked it right after realizing first hand that if I put too much it will have no airflow and hard to take draws, if too little cotton then it floods/leaks. Suggestions?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

You may want to try adding a flavor wick. Alternatively you can bump up the VG ratio in her eliquid.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Hey guys... Ive moved on to rba and RDA but have been trying to rebuild protank coils for my girlfriend. I've successfully made many different coils and most of them are 28g micro coils ranging between 1.3-1.5ohm. The problem I'm having I guess would be wicking. There's been many times I'd feel like ive wicked it right after realizing first hand that if I put too much it will have no airflow and hard to take draws, if too little cotton then it floods/leaks. Suggestions?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

KPT's tend to flood easily with too much power not enough air. Working through that on a build right now. Try dropping down to 29 or 30awg. You can still build a good micro, target 1.8-2Ω and you can comfortably push it out to 8W for some decent flavor vapor. I've listed some typical resistance/wind results in this thread. Better control over the flow though with cotton. I have almost a natural sense about cotton in anything but a Protank. It's difficult to do consistently with 28g. Save the heartache go Eko into 1/16 if you can thread it or a little bit further to 1.75. It will flow nice. I use Nextel XC-132 (SNG) and Kidney Puncher has the silica version of this which is also temp resistant and a good weave. Braid's the only thing that can me finessed into this coil range of 1.5-1.75mm. I know I've done well over 300 builds on clearo's mostly Kangers. Take your best shot…

And, good luck!

:)

Oh, and btw if you do the braid thing teach your g/f this simple cleaning trick and you will get your build through a few washes vaping nice...Blow Out The Wick Ends!
 

MacTechVpr

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You may want to try adding a flavor wick. Alternatively you can bump up the VG ratio in her eliquid.

What you said. Both great ideas. What I'm suggesting having worked through 28g and now 29 to 1.3Ω is you need to up your power. If you don't, you flood. Being that it's his g/f (just thinkin', maybe toooo much) it might be easier to find a broader more comfortable range. Me, I build the 15 watt set. I'm 12-15 on the drips, and likin' it.

Just sayin'

:)
 
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LReyes66

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Ironically my gf was the one getting me into vaping as I went with her to a local vape shop to pick out her (ours actually lol) first ecig ego twist with aspire bdc. As I evolved to better equipment such as rbas, mechs n a provari, she's been content with her ego twists and my hand me down protanks 2 minis/3 lol. With her still using ego twists batts it makes better sense giving her a rebuilt kanger coil around 1.8-2ohm instead of my preferred ohms of 1.2 so she will have less problems

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