Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[Mazinny]

Sorry i'm not contributing any thing to this thread but only asking questions but here goes :

1- On my first build the resistance came at 1.4 ohms, after a refill it came at 1.6 ohms and after a second refill today it came in at 1.5 ohms. why does this happen ? Is it that my Vamo 5 isn't accurate or is there another reason. After all the length of the wire isn't changing.
2- After how many ml of juice on average is it time to change the cotton wick ?
3- I have gone from 9 wraps to ten and just a few hours ago 11 wraps but the resistance is staying consistent at 1.4 ohms, using the same drill bit and building the coil the same way. Do i need to invest in an ohms meter, or could this be happening because my wraps are getting tighter in successive builds? Could tighter wraps really have this much of an impact ?

P.s. I have gone through 20 ml of juice exclusively on three pt rebuilds, and glad to report no change in flavor, gurgling, leaks or dry hits yet. I am really encouraged, and wish i had come across this thread before investing so much in new clearos and coil heads over the last six months

 

[f1vefour]

Don't worry about the ohms jumping around a little.

It is most likely a slight connection issue, try wiggling the ProTank around testing the ohms after each wiggle. If it changes you know the issue, run your VAMO on VW and it will auto-adjust for the small ohm differences giving you an even vape.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Awesome Maz!! Glad it was easy for you and that we could help. As for your question - Yes, battery consumption will differ between a 1.2ohm and a 1.8ohm coill (at 8 watts).. With your 1.2ohm coil, at 8 watts, your battery is running at about 3.1volts (3.09838667697v, to be exact). With your 1.8ohm coil @ 8 watts, your battery is running @ about 3.8volts (3.7947331922v). So your battery will drain quicker with the higher resistance coil, since it needs to pump more Voltage through it to get to the same power (8w).


Here's a formula I use to figure out the math:
.... (Voltage)*2/(Resistance in ohms) = (Wattage/Power)
^^ In your case, it would be ((V)2)/(1.2ohms)=(8watts).. And cross multiply to figure it out. So 8watts multiplied by 1.2ohms equals 9.6 < the square root of 9.6 is your voltage (3.09....v)

Thanks, MDub, so maybe an added benefit of the lower ohm rebuilds is that i can take my svd or vamo 5 to work in 18350 mode. These particular apv's get pretty ridiculous to carry around in 18650 mode. Currently i get about 6 or 7 hours in 18350 mode witha 1.8 to 2.1 ohm coil in my Aspire or Innokin I Clear 30s, vaping at 8 watts. If i can get another two hours with a 1.2 ohm coil in my pt 2, this would be an added bonus, on top of the better taste of cotton.

Good luck on the rebuild btw !

I guess I'm going to have to start calling M, M1 and you Maz, M2…or I'lll go nuts. Love the exchange here between ya, and you M2 some great posts, questions and observations. Read most of them this morning. Missing issue here is time and your vaping style (demand) if you use something like 28AWG. Great durability and stability once built. Takes time to fire and so power consumption (over time). It's a trade-off until you build it for the purpose. If you tend to chain short drags on a clearo like the efficient 3TS, a quick firing 8-turn 32g contact coil on a magneto with a kick will do ya quite a while at 7-8W. The KPT will be dragin' well inside those 2 hours with the same wind in 28G.

Can't take the time to comment this morning but the answer to both of you is — L E V E R A G E. Lots of techniques for forming wire on this forum from finger squeezing guiding of wire onto blunt needles as microcoils to hand over hand jig winding. None of these make best advantage of this physical principle. You can impart far more energy into a wire with tension than external forming of grip. If you use the leverage of combined hand and forearm pressure to spool off a coil of some kind physics will provide the uniformity of tightness and proximity that you and M1 are seeking. Do it once, find the wire strain point where cohesion of the coil occurs, you'll recognize it and be able to repeat the experience. It's evident because the wire will remain coherent and adhesion will be retained when you interrupt the turns. That coil will be perfectly joined. Ready to install, test fire, anneal and compress by pulsing on the batt. Rock and roll.

Pictures M2, on some of your questions. Hard to see how your .1Ω spreads are turning out without 'em. I know, I know. It was a month in after I started posting more seriously before somebody reminded me the internet is a visual medium. I like to read, so I enjoy your explanations.

Good luck.

 

[Flavored]

Reporting back after some finagling:

PT2/Evod head + 32ga Kanthal + 2mm hollow braid Ekowool.

I managed to scoop 2 drill bits, a 1/16" and a 5/64", just to experiment with different sizes. Since I was using Ekowool instead of cotton, I was not able to thread and twist it through the already seated coil, so I stuck the 1/16" bit directly through the hollowing of the Ekowool to give it a backbone to work off of. I used a standard bic lighter on the kanthal to make it more malleable and less springy. I proceeded to wrap a 4/3 (I finally understand what this fraction reference pertains to) around the Eko and drill bit, then placed the coil inside the head. I bent off the legs in opposite directions, slid the drill bit out nice and slowly, reassembled, and clocked in at 2.0 ohms. When I fired it, all the wraps glowed very evenly to my surprise.

I really thought I did everything right, however, after filling up, sitting for an hour to allow a more saturated wick, and taking about 10 puffs, I just got a bad taste in my mouth. I was producing decent vape, but I almost didn't even want to fire it for more than a few seconds due to the taste. I'm almost positive it is the Ekowool. I have read that some have either boiled it then let it dry, or torched it with a butane lighter, which I did not have the access to at the time. Some have also simply held the coil/wick combo over a gas stove and toasted it. Need to experiment more.

I think I am just going to pick up some organic cotton and give that a go since it doesn't require as much work as Eko. Anyone have any experience or suggestions for Ekowool?

Also, when I feed the coil legs through the atty body and bend them over the insulator and post, does it matter which leg gets bent over first? Also, does it matter in what direction? When I do this step, the only caution I take is to make sure the legs are on polar opposite sides of each other, and that they are snipped as close to the insulator as possible. I also make sure the legs aren't crossing and that they feed straight down. Do I need to make sure they are facing a certain position?

Cheers,

hump.

I presume you place the coil into the head with your bit or screwdriver or jig in the slot. Here’s what I do, and it works well for me: after placing the coil, I don’t bend the wires a lot, just enough to tell which end is which. Put the grommet around one and go ahead and push it in. Take your needle nose and tug the wires until your bit/driver/jig contacts the base/slot, not too tight just yet. Then, push the pin halfway in. Now take your needle nose and give a decent tug until that bit/driver/jig is tighter against the head. Hold both wires now while you push the pin all the way in. You should have your bit/driver/jig tight (not metal scratching tight, but not loose) in the slot. Now bend the wires and snip them off with toenail clippers (easiest tool to get them nearly flush), flat faced if you have them. Finally, wiggle/wobble the bit/driver/jig a little up and down in the slot until it loosens just a little and slides out the coil easily. This will also tug that last little sliver of the wire end up into the grommet.

Hope that made sense.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I presume you place the coil into the head with your bit or screwdriver or jig in the slot. Here’s what I do, and it works well for me: after placing the coil, I don’t bend the wires a lot, just enough to tell which end is which. Put the grommet around one and go ahead and push it in. Take your needle nose and tug the wires until your bit/driver/jig contacts the base/slot, not too tight just yet. Then, push the pin halfway in. Now take your needle nose and give a decent tug until that bit/driver/jig is tighter against the head. Hold both wires now while you push the pin all the way in. You should have your bit/driver/jig tight (not metal scratching tight, but not loose) in the slot. Now bend the wires and snip them off with toenail clippers (easiest tool to get them nearly flush), flat faced if you have them. Finally, wiggle/wobble the bit/driver/jig a little up and down in the slot until it loosens just a little and slides out the coil easily. This will also tug that last little sliver of the wire end up into the grommet...Hope that made sense.

Yep, what you said. Having avoided pushing up on either leg with the set distorting the wind (or termination), you need to end up with balanced tension on the coil at the end of the day. That's what a 510 clearo requires to work best. You can use a forceps and light pull after the set to do this carefully. You can still ease out the pin, grommet or both slowly if need be. And here you have the opportunity to reset the center of the coil or any turn that's gone awry for the last time before you pull the bit.

What did help for me (to even see the problems) early on with this process was to put the pride aside and buy a simple desktop magnifier. A variety is available from CARSON and this effective option from Amazon, eBay, etc. for cheap…

http://www.opticsplanet.com/carson-...nIATQ&ef_id=Usr39wAAAOoPbO8z:20140106183743:s

It's the item I carry around with me for demo's and use at home. Can't beat the price as it's priced higher at Office Depot where I found mine in a pinch.

Good luck.

 

[Flavored]

Speaking of leverage, I have to plug that Amazon Coil Winding Gizmo one more time, and I encourage you craftsmen of coiling to maybe pick one up, fiddle with it, perfect it, and then inform. I encourage this simply because with the knowledge of the mechanics of coiling on display here, there is little doubt in my mind you guys can make that thing sing. For instance, applying tension is simple, just grab the reel in your left hand and hold the wire tight. How tight? That’s where you come in. I applaud those getting good coils winding with homemade jigs, around bits, screwdrivers, etc., and Mac’s picture of the coil around the screwdriver is a masterpiece. The dexterity required to do that consistently doesn’t reside in my hands, though I’ve made good winds around drill bits and the cranker homemade jig in this thread that just needed a heat and squeeze. Made some bad ones, too. But that Gizmo winds consistent and tight, allows tensioning to your desires, and is so simple (requires way less hand/finger dexterity), I am convinced anyone can wind a coil on it. And, the coils usually need only an in-head “tap” if anything to give a marvelous glow center out.

Humbly submitted.

 

[M_DuBb716]

I may try out this technique next time: Coiling Wire on a Drill - Beaducation.com - YouTube

 

[Flavored]

Get some big batteries.

Though the clamp for tension is intriguing.

 

[beckdg]

[/B]Gotta tell ya. I loved Ekowool on 5/64" in the KPT. But very difficult to stabilize it. You can't put tension on the legs when you set them without potentially distorting the wick which sits now on a bit smaller than the wind. All kinds of problems can ensue.

easy solution.

set your desired height on the coil. bend a leg over the 510 connection. holding the base with that leg pinched under your thumb, insert the grommet. now you have 1 leg set to a specific height.

set your height on your remaining side and bend the other leg that should now be through the grommet over the grommet and 510 connection. hold the base while pinching that leg in place with your thumb and insert the center pin.

the height of your coil should now be set where you want it without distorting your coil.

 

[M_DuBb716]

Thanks for the tip Beck!! I will definitely try that out on my next build

Just tried a new one - 30g, 9 wraps on a 1/16" (1.58mm), coming in at 1.8ohms on initial test. Mac, you're right - just test firing the coil seems to help it glow from the center outwards. No need to compress really, and mess up my coil!! This one looks pretty nice. I couldn't resist compressing it slightly just after test-firing, but I used a lot less force and didn't mess up the coil this time

.. Thanks for the great advice everyone!! I'll post pics of this build later, after I see how it vapes

 

[M_DuBb716]

^^ Getting good flavor on this micro, but the vapor amount/thickness, and TH could be better. It's bouncing between 1.8-1.9ohms
Will probably build a new one tonight

 

[Mazinny]

I guess I'm going to have to start calling M, M1 and you Maz, M2…or I'lll go nuts. Love the exchange here between ya, and you M2 some great posts, questions and observations. Read most of them this morning. Missing issue here is time and your vaping style (demand) if you use something like 28AWG. Great durability and stability once built. Takes time to fire and so power consumption (over time). It's a trade-off until you build it for the purpose. If you tend to chain short drags on a clearo like the efficient 3TS, a quick firing 8-turn 32g contact coil on a magneto with a kick will do ya quite a while at 7-8W. The KPT will be dragin' well inside those 2 hours with the same wind in 28G.

Can't take the time to comment this morning but the answer to both of you is — L E V E R A G E. Lots of techniques for forming wire on this forum from finger squeezing guiding of wire onto blunt needles as microcoils to hand over hand jig winding. None of these make best advantage of this physical principle. You can impart far more energy into a wire with tension than external forming of grip. If you use the leverage of combined hand and forearm pressure to spool off a coil of some kind physics will provide the uniformity of tightness and proximity that you and M1 are seeking. Do it once, find the wire strain point where cohesion of the coil occurs, you'll recognize it and be able to repeat the experience. It's evident because the wire will remain coherent and adhesion will be retained when you interrupt the turns. That coil will be perfectly joined. Ready to install, test fire, anneal and compress by pulsing on the batt. Rock and roll.

Pictures M2, on some of your questions. Hard to see how your .1Ω spreads are turning out without 'em. I know, I know. It was a month in after I started posting more seriously before somebody reminded me the internet is a visual medium. I like to read, so I enjoy your explanations.

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice Mac Tech,

I had never seen Kanthal wire until last week when i received 100 feet each of 28 and 32. Just by looking at the wire, i thought it would be easier to work with the 28, and i followed some numbers you had posted early in the thread to try and get a 1.7 or 1.8 ohm coil, wrapping around what i thought might be a 1/16 drill bit. Based on the final result i am now convinced that i was wrapping around a 3/64 drill bit. Once i am more confident in my wrapping skills, i will try my hand with 32.

As for the lag in firing time, it wasn't bothering me until you brought my attention to it . As for the extra power consumption i, see your point.

I have ordered a nemesis clone with a kick, which i will be carrying around with me once it arrives, and will leave the vamo and svd at home (btw, do i need to order imr batteries, or does the kick alleviate the need for that ?). I have no use for my ego's and ego twist any more, so i would rather deal with the awkward size of the vamo with an 18650.

Believe it or not i haven't uploaded a picture yet ! and don't know how, even though i believe my camera has macro capability. I will get on that !

This weekend i will try wrapping some more coils ( including an attempt at the aspire bdc, although i'm certain it will be more difficult), after re-reading some of your posts about tension and leverage. I am not totally clear about the technique. I am hoping to be somewhat proficient by the time my Patriot and Kayfun Lite clones get here from China ( should be about a month ).

Once again, thanks for the pointers.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks for the advice Mac Tech,

I had never seen Kanthal wire until last week when i received 100 feet each of 28 and 32. Just by looking at the wire, i thought it would be easier to work with the 28, and i followed some numbers you had posted early in the thread to try and get a 1.7 or 1.8 ohm coil, wrapping around what i thought might be a 1/16 drill bit. Based on the final result i am now convinced that i was wrapping around a 3/64 drill bit. Once i am more confident in my wrapping skills, i will try my hand with 32.

As for the lag in firing time, it wasn't bothering me until you brought my attention to it . As for the extra power consumption i, see your point.

I have ordered a nemesis clone with a kick, which i will be carrying around with me once it arrives, and will leave the vamo and svd at home (btw, do i need to order imr batteries, or does the kick alleviate the need for that ?). I have no use for my ego's and ego twist any more, so i would rather deal with the awkward size of the vamo with an 18650.

Believe it or not i haven't uploaded a picture yet ! and don't know how, even though i believe my camera has macro capability. I will get on that !

This weekend i will try wrapping some more coils ( including an attempt at the aspire bdc, although i'm certain it will be more difficult), after re-reading some of your posts about tension and leverage. I am not totally clear about the technique. I am hoping to be somewhat proficient by the time my Patriot and Kayfun Lite clones get here from China ( should be about a month ).

Once again, thanks for the pointers.

You obviously get it Maz and you're on the right track. You are going to absolutely love this whetever the methods you adopt for success. I'm merely trying to find the path of least resistance to get people through quicker than I did. No sense traveling the same bumpy road twice. After excellent results with 28g, I discovered the limitations; it's powerful and big. And 32g is very quick firing and if that's the goal on smaller atomizers, 31g is a good compromise to reach a similar temperature/resistance. I'm doing the same now working through 29g finding some advantages over 30g. It's extremely rewarding, the discovery.

My iPhones don't do the macro tango either. <shrug>

Good luck.

 

[M_DuBb716]

^ I really need to find some 29g to build with, I'd love to give it a try

 

[M_DuBb716]

My most recent build (9 wraps of 30g on 1/16", 1.8ohms), just hasn't been satisfying. It could be the wicking, but it just hasn't been giving me good vapor amount/thickness.

I'm about to do my usual build, 10 wraps of 30g on a 1/16"/1.58mm. This 9-wrap has been a bit disappointing, especially after how suprisingly satisfying my previous, 1.1ohm, 10wraps of 28g build was!

 

[MacTechVpr]

My most recent build (9 wraps of 30g on 1/16", 1.8ohms), just hasn't been satisfying. It could be the wicking, but it just hasn't been giving me good vapor amount/thickness.

I'm about to do my usual build, 10 wraps of 30g on a 1/16"/1.58mm. This 9-wrap has been a bit disappointing, especially after how suprisingly satisfying my previous, 1.1ohm, 10wraps of 28g build was!

Well I may have a little surprise for ya later that you and other low-Ωer's may like.

 

[MacTechVpr]

^ I really need to find some 29g to build with, I'd love to give it a try

Well yeah you do!

 

[M_DuBb716]

Hmmm label me intrigued

 

[MacTechVpr]

Here is a sum-up of the most pertinent validations I have made for KPT (addendum in blue)…

32AWG, 7/6 1.75mm i.d. m.c. = 2.2Ω √
32AWG, 5/4 2mm i.d., loose m.c. = 1.85Ω √
30AWG, 11/10 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.1Ω √ #292 MrOcelot
30AWG, 10/9 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.04Ω √
30AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. =2.01 √
30AWG, 8/7 1.75mm i.d. m.c. = 1.85Ω √
30AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d. m.c. = 1.81√
30AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d. t.m.c. = 1.73Ω √
30AWG, 7/6 1.75mm i.d., m.c. = 1.78 √
30AWG, 7/6 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.57Ω √
29AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.92Ω √
29AWG, 8/8 1.58mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.40Ω √
28AWG, 12/11, 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.3Ω #241 vdaedalus
28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.62Ω
28AWG, 9/8, 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.49Ω
28AWG, 8/7 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.3Ω

m.c.= conventional contact coil
t.m.c. = torsioned (or tensioned) contact coil
(n.b. A mechanically wound coil is not necessarily tensioned. Preferably tension adequate to induce turn-adhesion must have been applied for its use to be inferred or reported. Not merely external heat or forming pressure. Thank you, as there will be resistance implications.)

Hope this info is helpful in targeting your temp sets. Let me know your validations please (or successful improvement so we can test it!).

Good luck all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hmmm label me intrigued

Well I'm really, really liking the 29/30 AWG combo for providing what's looking like a very wide palate for targeting resistance. None of the delicate frailty and fickleness of 32g or the energy soaking room filling muscularity of 28g. Both difficult where managing termination is concerned for different reasons. Both 29 and 30 are easier in ergonomic terms to handle, form and tension. And 29 AWG fills out the bottom side of resistance with lower wind values that don't cram the bowl.

I decided to hurry to post this one as I was looking for a sweet spot here. So I've only got two sets for validation but all tested across 4 devices (2xcartometers, Sig zMaxv3, eVic)…. An 8 wind fires fast and hot and vapes, well, you'll see…

1) The raw set, unfired, uncompressed; 2) threaded, Nextel XC-132; 3)+4) res. reads; and, final burn-in after pulsing (Nextel fired dry 8W, 10 secs!)...



This whole build took me about 35 mins. But I spent a lot of time comparing different samples of wick materials. Actually had two identical winds at this spec I was testing threading on. Nextel took less than 20 seconds. That's why I love this wicking material. The wick is the elephant in the room in vaping.

And you hot-damn can't complain about the result when you coil from the spool...