Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

Alright ladies and gentlemen ....you can call me Forrest. Forrest Gump. In between doing other things....I have been wrapping coils all day searching for vaping Nirvana. As you can see from the photo, I have gone from 20 gauge blunt needles all the way down to 14. I have varies my number of wraps. The last one, 8/9 wraps on a 14 gauge needle, which gave me 1.45 ohms naked. I was excited!!! So I went ahead and wicked it, primed it, posted it, and put it back on the ohm meter.......?! Put it on my itaste vv...0.0 ohms. Why???!? How did this happen? And please.....Don't explain it to me in millimeters of sillica and all that stuff. I need a). Drill bit size...b). Number of wraps for 28 gauge kanthal to get 1.8-2.4 ohms resistance...and how many strands of peaches and cream yarn...seriously. If I can't get my head around this....I will give up and go back to buying crap factory coils.

Why chap, you're doing great such a short time in? And it looks like you've done your homework! From your res study you're in the zone. It would seem too that your issue's straightforward. I think mad has the most obvious answer, a termination short. However, I would offer that if you've terminated tight as suggested you have tried to ensure both your legs are oriented in the direction they exit the wind off the bit at termination. When you do this you're pretty much assured you're not shorting on a wall or crossing the legs as they're nowhere near each other or any other point of contact besides the grommet at the bottom and headed in opposite directions. Confirm it visually. If they are correctly set…you have a mystery worthy of exploration…hit us up, and

Good luck.

 

[LReyes66]

Thanks for that feedback LR.

In a KPT the 510 grommet is a sieve. Vacuum must be spot on relative to the volume/saturation cap of the wick or it's a strainer right into the base. I've had success with the techniques on this and Metalhed's threads of simple but disciplined symmetrical installation. It helps keep the shorts under control (and the poor vaporization which results in flooding). And I try to always refill the KPT at about 40%. Recently though I've found this to be not as crucial.

I've been testing two other options which help greatly. The first using the juice channels. Filling them with wicking material does help to limit moisture bypassing the flange. Amazingly, the Aero base. The improved air flow in both instances and particularly combined helps tremendously to keep moisture where it needs to be.

And I challenge my personal and test clearo's LR from very low to high wattage, and at all battery levels. With mech's, variables and the kick.

While I've had a love/hate relationship with the KPT, I'm now gaining a newfound respect for its performance and potential for both flavor and vapor.

Good luck LR.

Thanks for the tip. I'll try extending the wick a bit further then what I've been doing to saturate as much from the base. I've been placing that silicon grommet upside down to prevent leaks when upside down but I guess placing it the correct way wouldn't hurt wicking that much as I predicted.

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[MacTechVpr]

Thanks for the tip. I'll try extending the wick a bit further then what I've been doing to saturate as much from the base. I've been placing that silicon grommet upside down to prevent leaks when upside down but I guess placing it the correct way wouldn't hurt wicking that much as I predicted.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

The Protank contrary to all of the knee-jerk reactions is not a bad atty. It's very well designed. But by virtue of this tighter engineering comes the need to focus more on what the design requires of the build. I think anybody who can get one of these honey's workin' no matter what it is they put in can pretty much carry that forward to build anything. It's challenging. The principles of the design we see everywhere else.

The good thing, with the public's rejection of DC (KPT3) is that we won't likely see closed build cart's for the KPT anytime soon, like the Aspire's and Nautilus. This in my estimation is a good thing. We can see the quality and elect to control the vape for ourselves, or not. It's a good pathway to better devices when we do. An affordable one, but unforgiving.

Most of all appreciate any feedback on any tight build resistance results LR you have for the PT, for the road map here.

Good luck.

 

[LReyes66]

IMO the juice that comes up the tip is from the splattering of the more powerful microcoil and along with pulling a bit hard before the coil has the chance to heat up completely. I use a 1mm silica flavor wick in all my builds and don't have the juice film in my mouth anymore from splattering. Cotton as wicking it shouldn't flood unless you have the coil too low in the head.
Using something other than cotton like silica or ekowool, its very difficult to thread it into the coil. I have a alternative that works great is that I unbraided my ekowool into single strands. I fished several strands through the coil with a bead threader and now I have the dryburn ability of the ekowool and easy replacement like cotton. I didn't boil or torch my ekowool cause once you torch it, it becomes crispy and harder to work with and it still tasted fine, I'm not sure about untorched silica since I have miles of ekowool around and only use silica as flavor wicks

Mm interesting. I been using a 1/16 drill bit and when I place my coil in I use the drill bit to level the coil since it fits between the posts. Would that be considered too low that it causes flooding?

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[LReyes66]

Having only 1 successful rebuilt coil I decided to rebuilt my older crappy rebuilt coil and wrapped the base with a each of the thin strands of cotton while also raising the coil a little bit then usual (it was leveled with the outside base) . Here's a pic of it before putting on the top layer of cotton.

It fixed the flooding problem. But I'm still getting juice I guess bouncing from the cotton into my mouth when taking harder draws. I have extra silica wick from my Russian 91 but too be honest with you guys, I don't really want to use it as I've been spoiled with the great taste of cotton wick. Then again, is the cotton the culprit of the juice in mouth crime?

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[f1vefour]

You can use cotton as a floating/flavor wick. Cotton wicks sizzle during proper operation, nothing you can do about it really.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Cotton as wicking it shouldn't flood unless you have the coil too low in the head.

No disrespect intended alter, but your statement is not right.

There are a multitude of causes for flooding noted on this thread alone and throughout this forum. Not the least of which are pressure differential issues inherent to the design itself of the Protank and all tanks. Again, no disrespect intended but there are specific reasons I and others have made the recommendations we have including Metalhed on his earlier localization thread about positioning the coil. Look around this forum. Search the word flooding. The statement is misleading. Just sayin'.

No one solution solves or can solve flooding issues on a 510.

Now you say it works for ya and I'm not doubting it one minute. I would ask why it reduces flooding, specifically. I have explained why this approach actually creates it many times on this thread, covering the problem with the OP and others.

I know why you try it and why I have myself, extensively, with many kinds of wicking material, dozens. Lifting the wick centers a larger fatter tail which may seem to fill the slot. I agree. It may, at first. But with use cotton compresses and the bottom you're filling from above is now replaced with a gap at the top of the slot with use. There just needs to be enough wick in the slot for the duration. There is no substitute. Whether it's cotton compressing, or silica breaking up. Which for silica wicks means replacement. For cotton likewise, or re-wicking. Yeah that's why cotton just may not be the best wick in the PT, for durability. There needs to be just enough. And coil re-localization is not the way around this. It will fill neatly at first only and seem to solve the problem.

Too much cotton and you choke vaporization; too little cotton, or leaving space at the bottom or top of slot will result in flooding, in time.

Now to another problem created. When you move the coil off the bottom and use a top wick or full wick…you run the risk of shorting. Downward pressure from the cup on the top wick or too full cotton wick can bend the legs at set up or subsequently. Lower coil vaporization temperature results from voltage drop (no longer a micro) you may not see. It may only intermittently show as a resistance change. And this will most definitely produce flooding.

The vary basis of the techniques described on Metalhed's localization thread that points here are predicated on accurate tight localization of the coil. If one was to paraphrase the substance and purpose of this thread, the topic, that is it — a tightly localized microcoil build.

If that premise is going to be challenged, I'd like to ask for some credible substantiation. At least, for all of us, an explanation so we can understand the mechanics justifying it.

Thanks for understanding the objection.

Good luck alter.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Having only 1 successful rebuilt coil I decided to rebuilt my older crappy rebuilt coil and wrapped the base with a each of the thin strands of cotton while also raising the coil a little bit then usual (it was leveled with the outside base) . Here's a pic of it before putting on the top layer of cotton.

It fixed the flooding problem. But I'm still getting juice I guess bouncing from the cotton into my mouth when taking harder draws. I have extra silica wick from my Russian 91 but too be honest with you guys, I don't really want to use it as I've been spoiled with the great taste of cotton wick. Then again, is the cotton the culprit of the juice in mouth crime?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

You can use cotton as a floating/flavor wick. Cotton wicks sizzle during proper operation, nothing you can do about it really.

Dude, excellent early attempt!I agree with f1ve. With cotton and a hot coil, no flavor wick, you're gonna get pops and, yes, spittle. Is what it is.

I don't think you tension wound that one, didja? Just funnin' ya LR. My early Vivi winds looked like the Twilight Zone. But lack of contact means lack of efficiency. Not a microcoil and that's what were after. Hot turns but you won't see them (below thermal threshold of vision). Cotton may not be making very good contact at those gaps. Some parts of the coil very hot, others cool. Guess what? At the hot spots…pops. Then dry! That's what happens in a dripper when you start to run dry. Pops! The warning sign. Too full, too cool, no sizzle. Your device points the way to the right design and operation. Be observant.

But first can I plead with you to try the tension wind off the coil? You will have a perfect micro in a few attempts. Just a couple and keep 'em on the screwdriver bit, at the bottom of the slot until you terminate. Use a small top wick and get back to us.

Practice that first. Purdy please?

Love the juice channel fill, btw. That surprised me, that suggestion earlier by f1ve of extending the cotton wick. Use it extensively and introduce it in rebuilding classes. Or, the addition of small juice channel wicks. It helps! Some clearo's more than others. But nothing stops leaking and flooding on a Protank totally. You have the perfect build, draw too hard or too fast, too hot, the viscosity changes, exceed the capacity to vaporize and you're wet. That's physics.

Good luck, and keep it up!

 

[Alter]

I'm in here to learn also so there is no disrespect seen at all...just a bit more added to my learning curve.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I'm in here to learn also so there is no disrespect seen at all...just a bit more added to my learning curve.

No worries alter. And I hope I didn't make you feel like I was coming down too hard on ya. I have nothin' gainst sperimentin'. Done my fair share and, as I've occasionally acknowledged, of peein' on the electric fence myself. So really, not raggin' you…but I did rag the idea. For reals. Man, cause it messed me up movin' that thing around. To the point that I gave up on cotton as an alternative for the Protank. Too much fuss to keep the balance right between flow and air and power. You do need a lot of it (cotton) in a Protank, contrary to the less is more elsewhere. And it kept me from the tight build electrically that I knew could be done on a Protank. Because you can't go much more than a 1.75mm coil and stay in the slot. That said…cotton, it's wonderful!

Lookin' at your post again, I believe I do understand what you meant by your suggestion. If you use a big cotton wick and it's all the way down in the slot...it can distort the coil (bend it down, arch it). You can balance that by bringing it up some and having the wick more squared away in the slot. But I'm going to pretend to be a Protank for a minute and say I can't be sure to keep the legs straight that way! It's like walkin' on stilts. And the risk goes up they'll skew out from under ya (if they're not tight) at just the wrong time…like puttin' the tank back on after a refill >>>> flood.

In fairness to my own evaluation and since so many who come on this thread like cotton I really should revisit it and help try to narrow down the solutions for it. I just found getting that balance right so difficult alter and I'm very taste sensitive. I have far too many tanks in test daily to change out that many. So I put off looking at it months ago. Now these days I'm testing more types of wicking materials than ever in my own private eval of these consumer products and building techniques. And alter, this week I crossed the threshold of 350 builds on Kanger tanks! I'll prob do 3 or 4 today.

I really wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying your build. As a matter of fact, listen up peoples, all your other suggestions are rock solid as anything I've said. I like your silica top wick idea and Eko because these can be cleaned and reused, so can Nextel as a top wick or juice channel wick. So I'd be pleased to see more of your observations on what's worked. You obviously have it goin' on or you wouldn't be here to help and are finding the means to compensate or overcome the problems. Well that's why we're on this thread. And I make no claims to owning it. Your input is valuable to me, all of us.

I believe in the counsel — Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Good luck alter. Enjoy that cotton, I know we both do.




There are three kinds of men: the one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. —Will Rogers

 

[LReyes66]

Dude, excellent early attempt!I agree with f1ve. With cotton and a hot coil, no flavor wick, you're gonna get pops and, yes, spittle. Is what it is.

I don't think you tension wound that one, didja? Just funnin' ya LR. My early Vivi winds looked like the Twilight Zone. But lack of contact means lack of efficiency. Not a microcoil and that's what were after. Hot turns but you won't see them (below thermal threshold of vision). Cotton may not be making very good contact at those gaps. Some parts of the coil very hot, others cool. Guess what? At the hot spots…pops. Then dry! That's what happens in a dripper when you start to run dry. Pops! The warning sign. Too full, too cool, no sizzle. Your device points the way to the right design and operation. Be observant.

But first can I plead with you to try the tension wind off the coil? You will have a perfect micro in a few attempts. Just a couple and keep 'em on the screwdriver bit, at the bottom of the slot until you terminate. Use a small top wick and get back to us.

Practice that first. Purdy please?

Love the juice channel fill, btw. That surprised me, that suggestion earlier by f1ve of extending the cotton wick. Use it extensively and introduce it in rebuilding classes. Or, the addition of small juice channel wicks. It helps! Some clearo's more than others. But nothing stops leaking and flooding on a Protank totally. You have the perfect build, draw too hard or too fast, too hot, the viscosity changes, exceed the capacity to vaporize and you're wet. That's physics.

Good luck, and keep it up!

for that micro coil nah i didnt tension wrap it lol. I have for my daily vapors like my RBA's

 

[Alter]

I in no way will say that I'm a expert protank coil builder but always on a mission to learn something new to get my vape quality at its best. I started DIY within the first couple weeks of vaping with my old CE4's and those nasty dry hits you can get off those clearos. From there I realized how bad factory Ce4 heads can be, bought some silica wick, wire, youtube and marched forward to rebuild those heads and began having good vape experience. Protanks came out and I shelved all my Ce4's. My protank rebuilds started with wrapping around silica then got hold of 2mm hollow ekowool from a coop and upped my vape quality using ekowool and used it for quite along time before I read about cotton and it being a wicking material. Dryburned a old spent PT head, removed the wicking, twisted a qtip cotton bud into it and shelved my ekowool, using cotton was convient and easy to wrap and install with a allen key or a little screwdriver. Jumped into hemp fiber coop and bought a bit from reading its better than cotton for durability and juice holding and been using hemp with happy results but like cotton I was lucky to get 3 days, the hemp lasted up to 6 days before pooping out. Constant replacing gets redundant so thats where the unbraiding ekowool comes in and its been working fine.
BUT throughtout all the wicking materials I used I never have had any of my protanks flood, gurgle or leak. They naturally leak onto the 510 connection but enough to shine it and never pool ontop, so having a protank cotton build leak or flood is a achievement either being a microcoil or regular wrap coil. I've done the .8mm allen key you get with some drippers nano coil in my protank and not had it leak or flood, dual side by side microcoil and no flooding.
I've read people who insert the cotton before they install the coil and some after the coils installed so you have to assume if its wicked before installation you would use a pin to hold the coil in the slots thus maybe having the coil too low in the head vs the other way of using a allen key or screwdriver to hold the coil inplace and when putting in the grommet and pin you push the end wraps up a bit thus lifting up the coil and along with not enough cotton it could leak also.
I must be doing something right since I haven't heard a single coil complaint from my wife since we stopped using the CE4 clearos months ago.

 

[LReyes66]

I made a 1.3ohm microcoil, thinking it was between 8-10 wraps, which was wide enough to cover from end to end with just enough space to make sure it didnt touch the inner walls or the top chimney part. Add that with wrapping the base around with cotton and surprise no flooding at all. Havent even had juice bounce up the post and into my mouth... YET.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I made a 1.3ohm microcoil, thinking it was between 8-10 wraps, which was wide enough to cover from end to end with just enough space to make sure it didnt touch the inner walls or the top chimney part. Add that with wrapping the base around with cotton and surprise no flooding at all. Havent even had juice bounce up the post and into my mouth... YET.

Congratz. Yeah, f1ve's wick channel suggestion does seem to help. And I'm using it regularly. Have six tanks up today all in. But don't know what to make of your wind. Got a pic?

Good luck LR.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I in no way will say that I'm a expert protank coil builder but always on a mission to learn something new to get my vape quality at its best. I started DIY within the first couple weeks of vaping with my old CE4's and those nasty dry hits you can get off those clearos. From there I realized how bad factory Ce4 heads can be, bought some silica wick, wire, youtube and marched forward to rebuild those heads and began having good vape experience. Protanks came out and I shelved all my Ce4's. My protank rebuilds started with wrapping around silica then got hold of 2mm hollow ekowool from a coop and upped my vape quality using ekowool and used it for quite along time before I read about cotton and it being a wicking material. Dryburned a old spent PT head, removed the wicking, twisted a qtip cotton bud into it and shelved my ekowool, using cotton was convient and easy to wrap and install with a allen key or a little screwdriver. Jumped into hemp fiber coop and bought a bit from reading its better than cotton for durability and juice holding and been using hemp with happy results but like cotton I was lucky to get 3 days, the hemp lasted up to 6 days before pooping out. Constant replacing gets redundant so thats where the unbraiding ekowool comes in and its been working fine.
BUT throughtout all the wicking materials I used I never have had any of my protanks flood, gurgle or leak. They naturally leak onto the 510 connection but enough to shine it and never pool ontop, so having a protank cotton build leak or flood is a achievement either being a microcoil or regular wrap coil. I've done the .8mm allen key you get with some drippers nano coil in my protank and not had it leak or flood, dual side by side microcoil and no flooding.
I've read people who insert the cotton before they install the coil and some after the coils installed so you have to assume if its wicked before installation you would use a pin to hold the coil in the slots thus maybe having the coil too low in the head vs the other way of using a allen key or screwdriver to hold the coil inplace and when putting in the grommet and pin you push the end wraps up a bit thus lifting up the coil and along with not enough cotton it could leak also.
I must be doing something right since I haven't heard a single coil complaint from my wife since we stopped using the CE4 clearos months ago.

I think you do see some of the pitfalls alter and obviously as I said you've found some workarounds. They're probably second nature and you just do them.

But if your 510 connection is wet on the Protank or by the time it passes through to wet your battery post connection, at all…that is flooding, on the verge of dysfunction. Long before this sad event arises you will see loss of vapor and an accompanying loss of flavor. From there it gets worse until you see the conditions you describe.

I vape very hard and chain. This tends to heat up any atomizer and then the viscosity changes and the internal vacuum pressure is inadequate to keep the lower bowl of the assembly dry. You leak in the bowl of the head to the 510 and outside the head along it's flange. This I gather is what you're seeing. And if you are your vaping experience might be even better than you're happy with now if your build tightened up a bit.

Pretty much I can reproduce these adverse conditions in a Protank by the style of vaping I apply. It's not difficult to overload a Protank. Keeping it dry when you want to requires some of the solutions we've been talking about on this thread. Such as a tighter coil geometry or the recent cleaning technique for tank fills I've posted to my blog — Blow out the wick ends!. Unfortunately it doesn't work as well for cotton wicks. But five's juice channel wick suggestion certainly appears to help as when tank contents get warm they bypass the flange down to the 510.

So you, meaning all of us, have moisture heading down there from two directions. One within the assembly when vaporization doesn't keep up because of aggressive or continuous vaping, running down the battery too far or the tank too low, etc. The other issue happens outside the head at the flange and around the threads to the 510 when the juice gets thin from over-heating for the preceding and other reasons. In other words, the double-whammy. That's life in the 510 lane.

Some of us may be perfectly ok with such occasional leaking. It's not bothersome and often you seldom actually short or no load. For me and many others though we taste and feel the loss of vaporization. That's what this thread is about. Building optimal microcoils that keep such loss of vaporization to a minimum and performance at its practical best.

Good luck all.

 

[TafkanX]

Had a short run with the Aspire Nautilus, vaped great and had a huge capacity and I even had some success rebuilding it per the process put forth by Rip Trippers, but it turns out it isn't nearly as tough as the KPT. Fell off the coffee table and developed a hairline fracture that put it out of commission until such time as I can acquire new glass. My KPT 2, on the other hand, has been dropped more times than I care to admit and it's still going strong. Went ahead and picked up a Kanger Aero after this incident (yes, I have dropped it since and it's every bit as durable as the KPT before it) and I'm loving it. I can still use my old KPT heads on it which is good because I have a zillion of them. That said, I did successfully rebuild the dual coil head it came with using a single coil out of braided 32g kanthal (7 wraps on 2mm id for 1.4 ohms) without altering the old KPT process much. Only difference was I had to implement a second flavor wick to properly seal the longer side channels. I think these heads will work very well for a vertical coil, but have not built one yet. Overall I really like these new heads. They are taller and have longer side channels for wicking and utilize the newer silicone grommets and the pin has no bottom hole to leak down into the battery (indeed, the 510 connection is sealed off so the only area you could leak out of are the air vents). Of course, the built in airflow control is brilliant. Not quite as good as the Nautilus, but a huge improvement over having to use a separate airflow controller with the 510 air holes (no more fiddling with the grommet to fix air flow problems!).

While I feel the Nautilus does perform slightly better, the Aero gets the edge from me for durability and a much better coil head design. Far easier to rebuild and backward compatible with the old KPT heads.

I'll report back later with vertical build data.

 

[f1vefour]

Do keep us updated.

 

[fog80]

aerotank base on pt2....no more gurgle, no more leaks.

 

[Lewtz]

aerotank base on pt2....no more gurgle, no more leaks.

For sure. This fixed all my leaking/gurgling problems.

BUT, on another note, JUST NOW got done with my first ever coil rebuild.

32gauge, 5-6 wraps 5/64th drill bit... came out to 2.5 ohm on my meter. Little high. Took a while to break in and still not producing much vapor..enough.. but barely. I'll use it and try it out. Don't wanna rebuild immediately without using this and messing with it. I think I might have used to much cotton as it took forever to get noticeable vapor. Also, no flavor wick.

This was mainly a "can i do this" proof of concept. Damn thing is a pain to do, so tiny.

 

[LReyes66]

I made a 1.3ohm microcoil, thinking it was between 8-10 wraps, which was wide enough to cover from end to end with just enough space to make sure it didnt touch the inner walls or the top chimney part. Add that with wrapping the base around with cotton and surprise no flooding at all. Havent even had juice bounce up the post and into my mouth... YET.

nvm the gurgle and small amounts of flooding came back. I could get a aerotank base but since i finally decided to order a kayfun lite plus clone for my g/f it may not be needed.