Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[jawa.sparky]

I watched the videos by Grimm Green and Rip Trippers and just finished by first mini Pro tank 2 rebuild. I used 32 ga Kanthal around sugar and cream cotton yarn. I put a paperclip along side the yarn as something to wrap around. 5 wraps and I got 2.07 ohms. Much better flavor than the stock coil.

Sorry just had to celebrate by telling someone.

 

[f1vefour]

I watched the videos by Grimm Green and Rip Trippers and just finished by first mini Pro tank 2 rebuild. I used 32 ga Kanthal around sugar and cream cotton yarn. I put a paperclip along side the yarn as something to wrap around. 5 wraps and I got 2.07 ohms. Much better flavor than the stock coil.

Sorry just had to celebrate by telling someone.

It starts there and gets crazy

 

[M_DuBb716]

you got me again Mac I am straining to figure out the relevance of your post, to the tongue in cheek comment i made about the nicotine level ( 34 mg ) certus uses, but i agree with the sentiment.

on a different note, i am still getting variable resistance on the same coil at different times. jumps up or down by as much as .2 ohms. do you think its related to the position of the legs, or how tight or loose i screw the coil into the base perhaps ?

Hey Maz, I've been having that problem sometimes myself.. I think the issue is usually caused by a hanger, have you looked up close for any pieces tiny of wire hanging out?

A problem I've been having lately is my coil getting too hot, I think. It could be a hotspot/hot-legs, and/or because of a sloppy build on my part.
.... But I like to take about a 7-second long vape on my eVic. Unless I get my build and especially my wicking perfect, it's really hard to get that good "crackling" sound for 6-8 seconds straight. And I vape it real lightly, no-lung hits, super light right to my mouth for about 7 seconds - I suck soo lightly when I inhale into my mouth it's kinda like I'm letting the coil do all the work. I seem to get the thickest vapor when I draw on my tank as light as possible, while vaping it. But sometimes when doing this the coil gets too hot and I hear that "frying" sound, instead of the crackling I'm hoping to hear, and once in awhile I can tell the wick gets too dry and I taste cotton.

I usually do 10 wraps of 30g on a 1/16inch (1.59..mm) bit. Any tips on how I can get the best 7-second long vape, with my vaping style? Should I try a different build? It could be just because I'm using cotton and it's hard to get it consistent every time.. I like to chain vape sometimes too, but my biggest thing is one big, thick, flavorful vapor cloud.

 

[f1vefour]

And I vape it real lightly, no-lung hits, super light right to my mouth for about 7 seconds - I suck soo lightly when I inhale into my mouth it's kinda like I'm letting the coil do all the work.

This is the problem. When you take a pull on the tip it evacuates pressure from the tank and allows atmospheric pressure to push liquid through the wicks to the coil. If your not pulling hard enough it won't wick properly and your coil will overheat.

By your vaping style I would say the best build would be a factory style coil with evenly spaced wraps. A wide contact coil and long light inhale will almost certainly equal dry hits, dry wick equals overheating coil on long inhales.

 

[MacTechVpr]

you got me again Mac I am straining to figure out the relevance of your post, to the tongue in cheek comment i made about the nicotine level ( 34 mg ) certus uses, but i agree with the sentiment.

You're right, it was a bit obscure. I'm afraid I was having a little fun with certus at his expense (sorry certus). We all need to celebrate our accomplishments and there's nothing wrong with that. But I was commenting on the human frailty of thinking we've found the best. And that includes me. No such utopia exists. Usually knowledge, true learning, yields more questions. Still we need to share what we know…if only to further satisfy our curiosity. Learning is a collaboration. And I believe we gain more to do so.

I'm doing my first structured workshop on methods evolved on ECF and the recent broader adaptations of tension winding beginning tomorrow. Hopefully there will be many more. More enlightened B&M's across the country are realizing the need to disseminate more advanced methods and information to their customers and that will be a good thing for all of us. I am very pleased and honored to participate in such an effort.

So have at it, and good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

This is the problem. When you take a pull on the tip it evacuates pressure from the tank and allows atmospheric pressure to push liquid through the wicks to the coil. If your not pulling hard enough it won't wick properly and your coil will overheat.

I think you have it right. Good observation. The draw should be at least roughly matching the build. That is, the rate of vaporization for which it's capable. Exceed the capacity, draw too hard, and you will flood. Too little and the coil will overpower the wick drying it out.

By your vaping style I would say the best build would be a factory style coil with evenly spaced wraps. A wide contact coil and long light inhale will almost certainly equal dry hits, dry wick equals overheating coil on long inhales.

But…I can't imagine how anyone would benefit by de-engineering to a less efficient coil design. And you can't defy the physics. Whatever the build one must draw proportionate to the coils capacity and power selected or one or the other of the above will occur. You can't though, for example, select less power to lower that demand and still expect production. On the other, I chain, tanks also get hot when you do. Softer draws are not going to really help overcome that. Fact of life.

Just sayin'.

Good luck M.

 

[M_DuBb716]

I don't know, maybe I emphasized my soft drag a little too much. I don't think I vape that lightly, but I definitely vape soft compared to most of my friends (who've never really vaped before) who see my evic/protank, and I let them try it, and they suck so hard that it floods the wick completely for a good few drags, sometimes causing a slight leak.

I don't vape superrr soft... But I feel like when I do vape harder, the result is too much air, and the vapor is less thick and less flavorful. I seem to get the thickest and most flavorful vapor cloud, (and most throat hit), when I do good long soft(ish) vape. By the way, I am NOT counting "Straight-to-Lung Inhales" when I say all this, I'm not a fan of that way but that's a different story.

 

[M_DuBb716]

I definitely don't vape so lightly that the coil is just cooking my wick and juice, but I do take a long (around 6-7 second), softer vape. In my 1 year+ of vaping, I've learned adapt my draw to what gets me the thickest vapor cloud, for the coil/device I'm using.
...... I haven't tried too many different coils/builds - but if I ever was to try a sub-ohm/high-power build or something of that nature on a dripper/RBA/RDA/mech-mod. I would probably draw a lot harder, for the extra airflow that is needed.

 

[M_DuBb716]

And I do like a good chain-vape myself, usually at least a few times a day

 

[M_DuBb716]

You know, after observing myself vape for a few minutes, I wouldn't really say that I vape real softly. It's about a medium vape lol. but you know, I draw (kind of softly) to my mouth first, than inhale into my lungs. So I definitely don't draw real hard, but it's not super soft either. Ha..

I really need to get on that Airflow-Controller base and some spools of wire..

 

[f1vefour]

But…I can't imagine how anyone would benefit by de-engineering to a less efficient coil design.

Your saying a non-contact coil is less efficient whereas I find it to be more efficient, in confined quarters like ProTank heads they produce ample heat and vapor.

In a contact coil small as a PT juice can't wick the length of the coil, the center will be a weak point. The outer edges of the coil are vaporizing the liquid before it reaches the center (depending on applied power and vacuum). And being the center is receiving less juice it gets hotter because juice is also coolant.

A non-contact coil has even spacing which allows more juice to reach the entire length of the wick.

Even spacing is key just like contact is key to a contact coil.

Perhaps you should revisit a precise non-contact coil, you will find they actually work very well when built properly.

My best performing heads are non-contact (vapor production), best flavor comes from the greater generated heat of a contact coil.

Something like this, I just wrapped it from an old piece of wire I had laying around:

 

[Mazinny]

You're right, it was a bit obscure. I'm afraid I was having a little fun with certus at his expense (sorry certus). We all need to celebrate our accomplishments and there's nothing wrong with that. But I was commenting on the human frailty of thinking we've found the best. And that includes me. No such utopia exists. Usually knowledge, true learning, yields more questions. Still we need to share what we know…if only to further satisfy our curiosity. Learning is a collaboration. And I believe we gain more to do so.

I'm doing my first structured workshop on methods evolved on ECF and the recent broader adaptations of tension winding beginning tomorrow. Hopefully there will be many more. More enlightened B&M's across the country are realizing the need to disseminate more advanced methods and information to their customers and that will be a good thing for all of us. I am very pleased and honored to participate in such an effort.

So have at it, and good luck.

gotcha, it would've made complete sense to me if you had quoted his post, rather than my reply to his

 

[MacTechVpr]

Your saying a non-contact coil is less efficient whereas I find it to be more efficient, in confined quarters like ProTank heads they produce ample heat and vapor.

In a contact coil small as a PT juice can't wick the length of the coil, the center will be a weak point. The outer edges of the coil are vaporizing the liquid before it reaches the center (depending on applied power and vacuum). And being the center is receiving less juice it gets hotter because juice is also coolant.

A non-contact coil has even spacing which allows more juice to reach the entire length of the wick.

Even spacing is key just like contact is key to a contact coil.

Perhaps you should revisit a precise non-contact coil, you will find they actually work very well when built properly.

My best performing heads are non-contact (vapor production), best flavor comes from the greater generated heat of a contact coil.

Something like this, I just wrapped it from an old piece of wire I had laying around:

You got my attention.

But dude! Low blow. I'm well over 350 builds on clearos primarily and I haven't kept count precisely on my own personal builds on my own and others over the past couple of weeks but to say maybe three dozen. Most complex multi-coil and custom wire. It's not like I haven't seen a few of these things, you know f1ve. But you're right I don't have all the answers. And why I'm constantly questioning assumptions. Including, some of yours. Fact is I have built conventionals, over-and-over, and have continued alongside the test subjects I've been evaluating. And alongside factory editions. And of various twisted configurations. So I'm not blowin' smoke at ya.

F1ve, you may be right in what you say. I can't state it for a certainty, as regards the specific example (pic) and design you refer to. In fact, neither can you. We'd have to do a direct apples-to-apples comparison of the metrics. And we're really not going to do that here. But you force an answer on the fundamentals…uniformity, symmetry. And first I'll agree, but state it's besides the point, a well built coil (assembly), for me, is a given. Nothing works correctly if not electrically sound in its implementation.

I do know you may be mistaken in some of your assertions. For example, I use Nextel hollow braid as a wick media. I can assure you it flows end to end. And if as you state the center of the wick in a contact coil consistently fires hotter in absolute so as to vacate it of juice (and cooling)…it would follow that it would utterly dry out in operation. Scorching, of media or juice, would ensue and be evident in practically the center every contact coil used for vaporization. I've yet to see any evidence that happens in any wick I've used or seen) of such cooking at a contact coil's center (except cotton which can be overpowered. That fact that I've never seen any evidence for it might suggest it doesn't happen. And I too cut open and dissect wick media as part of my study. So I can't accept some of your observations as a given. The physics of a contact coil dictate a uniform heat distribution. So two things, even heat distribution and distributed flow. Insofar as flow and vectoring of juice internally. I don't know f1ve I can't see that. I'd be speculating, and I think so would you.

Just my opinion f1ve. Not trying to dis your conclusions. You are an impressive building machine. And I am happy to see that. Love to build some craz ..... with ya someday.

But I think you and I both understand where I'm coming from …the FACT that a true contact coil has an inherent efficiency in the uniformity of heat distribution. I believe…based on the facts I've read, here and elsewhere that a contact coil is a vast improvement in vaporization efficiency over a non-contact coil if equivalent in design (wire gauge + resistance). Your design looks intriguing. And I'm using twisted a lot myself. It's maybe the subject of a fantastic topic!

The great contact vs. non-contact coil face off!!!

Let's start it. I'll be there with bells on.

But sorry, can't get into it this morning. Busy day planned…building them! Far more fun.

You take care f1ve. Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

gotcha, it would've made complete sense to me if you had quoted his post, rather than my reply to his

Tryin' guy. Thanks for the comeback.

Good luck.

 

[f1vefour]

My assertions were with cotton wicking material only, I'm not really debating which coil is better I'm stating in my experience a uniform non-contact coil with cotton wick can provide a better vaping experience on a long medium powered draw.

I should have better stated what I'm saying.

Flavor, vapor production and throat hit are all increased by a contact coil. It's that a contact coil does not always perform better under all circumstances.

No low blow Mac, I'm just not agreeing with you on your assertion that contact coils are always superior.

I definitely have enough vaping experience to tell the difference between builds, there is no perfect coil for all situations.

*edit*
Contact coils do exactly as I said, you fire it and it heats from the center outward. Meaning juice in the center of the coil is evaporated before the juice on either end. This is not uniform, by definition it's the opposite.

You have a great Sunday as well Mac

 

[MacTechVpr]

You know, after observing myself vape for a few minutes, I wouldn't really say that I vape real softly. It's about a medium vape lol. but you know, I draw (kind of softly) to my mouth first, than inhale into my lungs. So I definitely don't draw real hard, but it's not super soft either. Ha..

I really need to get on that Airflow-Controller base and some spools of wire..

Having read some of your variations…I've done them all.

When I read, and I read a lot, I frequently chain. And they get real shallow. One to 1-1/2 sec pulls. Typically on a 2Ω, 4v, 8w build. I use test or personal variables and two kicked mech's when I do research. I've done this out 20 mins M without overheating. Early on, efficient non-contact coils, I'd overheat. Using Nextel, seldom. I don't think what you describe is a particular extreme. Love to do that too on my mech/cart combo's (Boge LR's), no problem. Drain the batt maybe, lol. But no overheating.

However, if unknowingly I start really hard-drag chains in the midst of that…man it will! Heat up! And flood too, to boot (I would gather from the rapid decrease in viscosity, or rapidly decreasing vacuum as the tank empties, or both). I don't have time to sit here and asses that. It's a source of consternation. And the affect varies from one mod/build to another. But for ex. with the mech/carts, that's why I have 'em set that way because I do like to soft chain Tribeca and it tastes great cooler. Just don't decide to hit it hard.

I'm afraid I don't have a lifeline to a physicist this morning for you or f!ve lol. You both got my curiosity goin'. Dang ya's both.

Have a great day and good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

My assertions were with cotton wicking material only, I'm not really debating which coil is better I'm stating in my experience a uniform non-contact coil with cotton wick can provide a better vaping experience on a long medium powered draw.

I should have better stated what I'm saying.

Flavor, vapor production and throat hit are all increased by a contact coil. It's that a contact coil does not always perform better under all circumstances.

No low blow Mac, I'm just not agreeing with you on your assertion that contact coils are always superior.

I definitely have enough vaping experience to tell the difference between builds, there is no perfect coil for all situations.

Don't ever take me too seriously. Prove all things. I may be wrong. Just build it. I'd like to see it.

No we're cool dude. And as I said you may be absolutely right. In some wind situations I'm seeing with twisted and cotton, I'm really liking the result. On this thread I'm tryin' to stay focused on standard electrical builds, you know, for the newbs. And we all are. So there's always something new to learn. I think it's important. I'd love to go there with ya and really test this. I wish I had more time. I really do. Today's jammed. I want to be up on supe's pic thread. Wanted to since the start. But tryin' to get somewhere with this.

And I know you have the exp man I've seen your posts and rigs.

Appreciate your help, support, remarks, confirmations. It's all good.

Have a good one, and

Good vape!

 

[TafkanX]

I've been promising a dual coil build on the Aero for a while now and it's finally here... with pictures!

First, the coils set in the head... a bit hard to really see, but they're just on top of each other with about a millimeter of space between them. Two coils, both 10 wraps of 32g kanthal with 2mm diameter... parallel resistance of 1.6 ohms:

Next, with cotton wick installed (one wick through each coil and a flavor wick in between):

A shot of the head fully assembled; note the silicon grommet and tapered pin:

And just for fun, my assembled vaping apparatus (Innokin SVD w/ stacked 18350s, superfluous airflow control unit for aesthetics and Kanger Aero w/ custom titanium drip tip):

So far she's vaping like a dream. Big old clouds and moist, full-bodied vapor. Only downside is she's burning through liquid like crazy. This is a common phenomenon with multiple coils, though.

Whole thing was relatively simple to do, practically identical to a single horizontal coil build except for obviously doubling it over.

Vape long and prosper!

Note: some of the pictures were taken prior to tweaking. Had to adjust the coil ends and positioning a little to get it all right, but wanted to get the process documented.

 

[MacTechVpr]

My ProTank 2 mini is bad about this, it fluctuates by as much as 0.5 ohms depending on how I have it screwed on.

I detected the same thing and have commented about this. Since the time of the 2.2Ω release I believe with the 1.5 PT2, the "no glue", cross-bar, whatevermajiggy…the 510 skews. And skews the coil with it. I suspect a change in the composition of the grommet. And the replacements are even a tad more slippery. And i believe the silicone even more so since it repels moisture. The original had a coarser texture and that may have helped termination by applying more drag on the wire. Annealing the leads helps but not much, not much at all. I've even tried roughening the leads. It's pretty bad. And it makes precise termination even more important with tension.

But all these things point to one thing certain…an increasing need to change the coils.

Hmmmm….something to think about.

Good luck.

 

[TFL!]

When doing tension winding Try one of these to hold the wire. Amazon.com: Umpqua Metz Fly Tying Bobbins, Standard: Sports & Outdoors