Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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f1vefour

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Mac I switched over to rayon a few weeks ago and have only noticed what you experience with two juice types, NET's and mentholated juices. Although both juice types start out tasting exactly as they should the menthol begins losing the coolness (the menthol) after about a day. The NET's begin losing the woodsy or earthen notes after about a day.

Sweetness is enhanced across the board, sometimes a good thing..sometimes not (juice dependent).
 

cigatron

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Mac I switched over to rayon a few weeks ago and have only noticed what you experience with two juice types, NET's and mentholated juices. Although both juice types start out tasting exactly as they should the menthol begins losing the coolness (the menthol) after about a day. The NET's begin losing the woodsy or earthen notes after about a day.

Sweetness is enhanced across the board, sometimes a good thing..sometimes not (juice dependent).

54, I am seeing muting of the "honey graham" sweetness of my NET (goodejuice "acadia gold") from the very start with cc rayon.
To clarify could you define for us how many ml "a day" represents?

:)cig
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac I switched over to rayon a few weeks ago and have only noticed what you experience with two juice types, NET's and mentholated juices. Although both juice types start out tasting exactly as they should the menthol begins losing the coolness (the menthol) after about a day. The NET's begin losing the woodsy or earthen notes after about a day.

Sweetness is enhanced across the board, sometimes a good thing..sometimes not (juice dependent).

F1ve I like the sweet, so I'm biased that way. Definitely saw a pickup in that while seeing diminution of some flavor notes. Didn't make sense. But you're right it's not universal. I'm more sensitive than most so pick up on the broader attenuation.

Here's what, in one of my first posts on CC I noted that vaporization seemed to be getting ahead of the wicking. Like juice transport was not keeping up. That wasn't it. There's good flow. And I've had it confirmed by several builders I've shared samples and juice with. The repeated observation after several days was that juice is retained away from the wick. I build a reservoir bed, a small donnut of cotton around the pos post, on singles which I favor for testing flavors. This slightly denser wrap serves to direct fluid from the alternate well back towards the coil and tufts of wick strategically placed to support the wick ends. So the wick enjoys a constant contact with the reservoir. You'd think there's no way the wick could run dry. You'd be right. I've used it with Nextel, Eko, cotton, KGD and hybrids of these builds and it works. With common cotton though I've experienced this situation with some juices that you get ahead of the vape. Look in the drip and you see juice retained away from the coil. This is something I'm seeing with CC about 3-4 days in depending on juice as it appears to reach a saturation peak. However, CC starts to exhibit this from day one. It's just not as acute. And doesn't happen with all juices. Just the more heavily pigmented fluids.

A footnote postive for CC is that it doesn't seem to start tasting anywhere as foul as cotton, any variety, as it gets there. And flavor remains constant at that point (even with my gunky Trident Johnson Creek tests). So does vapor for the most part. But flavor has diminished. And throughout I personally start to detect the chalky texture I mentioned earlier as the wick vacates. But this effect is not as pronounced for me as the ever imposing taste of cotton. There always seems to be a tradeoff with organics.

So I'd say it's quite a useful media. It can spotlight certain flavors in spectacular fashion, footlight others that might have gone unnoticed and so deserves a place in the inventory. If for nothing else but the exploration of our favorites it's a great option. But like Nextel, there's definitely a learning curve and coil Ø/power/wick density criteria that needs to be better understood for those particular juices to really take advantage of the wick. Nextel's quite a bit easier to sort out for me. It's performance characteristics uniformly broader. Cotton was almost instinctive in a dripper. Just knew the right everything for it.

All this tells me f1ve is that it's all the more important for newcomers to learn at least the fundamentals of a proper electrical wind and that includes comparisons to less efficient conventional configurations of straight, twisted, etc. Because to me I believe more each day that vaping most resembles cooking than any other activity. Just a little bit of knowledge here with proper circuits and you can whip ... on any juice far and away easier than most would hatch winners in the kitchen or bbq. So I'm for making master chef's out of all those comin' up. And CC will definitely be a boon to many.

I'd be really interested to see someone whose been good with it run in it at 5/64" on an Aero or Mega. I think that would be instructive for many, especially on the density.

Thanks your feedback f1ve. Take care and vape lucky.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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54, I am seeing muting of the "honey graham" sweetness of my NET (goodejuice "acadia gold") from the very start with cc rayon.
To clarify could you define for us how many ml "a day" represents?

:)cig

I think the sweetness pickup is stemming from the greater dominance of VG. I've lost sweet notes from natural flavor bases.

Mornin cig.

Lucky vapes.

:)
 

brookj1986

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I've noticed with unflavored max VG juice this same hint of sweetness. I've not tried unflavored with other wicking materials, but on a clean rayon wick with a nice 0.8 ohm tensioned micro coil, it actually is quite satisfying.

No other flavors, just vape with a hint of sweetness.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
 

MacTechVpr

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Read and rerereread this. Lost me

Afternoon Mac

:)cig

Loquacious Mac is back (jeez sounds like a Star Trek character).

Some people report a pickup in sweetness. VG is inherently sweet. I've theorized that CC's fibrillation may be trapping some dense flavoring pigments, perhaps sweet ones. Most of my organics are. If sweetness from such alternate pigments is subdued then VG becomes the dominant source of that attribute.

Sometimes simpler isn't better?

Yikes.

:D
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac, your bedding of wick is great for using up those little trimmed pieces of medium.

pardon the typos, on my phone :)

Too much cotton which I like in some devices doesn't always help. At times it's just a repository. Strategic placement of small directional elements can have some surprising results.

It's no trick, the results of some simple subtle patches and supports…


attachment.php



The result was nearly a doubling of the vapor output for this 1.5Ω build. I repaid a favor as he showed me the importance of unrestricted air-flow under the coil many moons ago prompting a formidable expansion of my wick studies into the areas of airflow in tanks.

Needless to say, I stopped watchin' the video long ago and payin' better attention to my friends.

Best to pay it forward clnire. You never know what amazements may await you.

Good luck.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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I've noticed with unflavored max VG juice this same hint of sweetness. I've not tried unflavored with other wicking materials, but on a clean rayon wick with a nice 0.8 ohm tensioned micro coil, it actually is quite satisfying.

No other flavors, just vape with a hint of sweetness.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

Amazingly following super_X_drifters suggestion regarding the clean-ness of the vape I discovered this too for the first time brook.

Good luck.

:)
 

cigatron

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Hi all, been performing head to head controlled testing of cc rayon against kgd in protanks for a couple of weeks now with my dirtiest net( goodejuice "acadia gold").
Cc does express juice to the coil quite well initially with light wicking density but due to its almost fully directional fiber orientation it appears to collapse(sag) thereby closing off the internal wicking channels. It also sags enough after 1ml to expose small voids between the wick and wick slot causing flooding and leaking. Mac referred to this phenomena as fibrillation I believe.
After upping the wicking density slightly one tank at time the flooding/leaking problems subsided however the flavor, vapor density and wick longivity suffered. Back to kgd.

Kgd however with its slightly omnidirectional fiber orientation allows for lighter wicking and longer change intervals with nets. The presence of cross-directional (non-linear) fibers in kgd appear to act as reinforcement or structural buttressing for the linear fibers keeping them separated to allow for good fluid transport and tank sealing. As such the vapor production and flavor accuracy remains intact much longer than with cc.

Undergoing "combed kgd" tests now where I remove the nodules and most of the cross directional structure from kgd to see whether it's the processing of the cotton (chemical and such) or just the fiber orientation that makes it work so well in protanks with NETs.
As all my testing is performed using my dirty nets your mileage will vary if using cleaner juices. It may be totally presumptuous on my part to reason that if dirty nets work well that cleaner juices will work even better but that's just me.

:)cig
 
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brookj1986

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Hi all, been performing head to head controlled testing of cc rayon against kgd in protanks for a couple of weeks now with my dirtiest net( goodejuice "acadia gold").
Cc does express juice to the coil quite well initially with light wicking density but due to its almost fully directional fiber orientation it appears to collapse(sag) thereby closing off the internal wicking channels. It also sags enough after 1ml to expose small voids between the wick and wick slot causing flooding and leaking. Mac referred to this phenomena as fibrillation I believe.
After upping the wicking density slightly one tank at time the flooding/leaking problems subsided however the flavor, vapor density and wick longivity suffered. Back to kgd.

Kgd however with its slightly omnidirectional fiber orientation allows for lighter wicking and longer change intervals with nets. The presence of cross-directional (non-linear) fibers in kgd appear to act as reinforcement or structural buttressing for the linear fibers keeping them separated to allow for good fluid transport and tank sealing. As such the vapor production and flavor accuracy remains intact much longer than with cc.

Undergoing "combed kgd" tests now where I remove the nodules and most of the cross directional structure from kgd to see whether it's the processing of the cotton (chemical and such) or just the fiber orientation that makes it work so well in protanks with NETs.
As all my testing is performed using my dirty nets your mileage will vary if using cleaner juices. It may be totally presumptuous on my part to reason that if dirty nets work well that cleaner juices will work even better but that's just me.

:)cig

Cig, might I suggest pre soaking the wick prior to rocking a tank full? Wick sag is to be expected with cc as it contracts versus expands when fully saturated.

I'll be honest, I've not used cc in my protanks much since I've not used a protank for quite some time. I've been hooked on my drippers or bottom feed mods for the past month nearly exclusively, and the rayon wick seems to work even better for me. KGD was a revelation for my vaping experience, but rayon has done even more in my drippers. that said, I'll be testing out your spaced coil with kgd versus rayon since i want to be sure it doesn't get warped at all.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
 

cigatron

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Cig, might I suggest pre soaking the wick prior to rocking a tank full? Wick sag is to be expected with cc as it contracts versus expands when fully saturated.

I'll be honest, I've not used cc in my protanks much since I've not used a protank for quite some time. I've been hooked on my drippers or bottom feed mods for the past month nearly exclusively, and the rayon wick seems to work even better for me. KGD was a revelation for my vaping experience, but rayon has done even more in my drippers. that said, I'll be testing out your spaced coil with kgd versus rayon since i want to be sure it doesn't get warped at all.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

Hi Brook, yeah I presoak all my new wicking before vaping.
You stated "contracts", where I used "collapse" and Mac used "fibrillation" to describe the behavior of cc. I think we are all talking about the same thing though.
For NETs this phenomena is a game killer in PTs as the larger flavor molecules get trapped in the wick, reducing flow and leading to rapid carbonization of the juice at the coil.

:)cig
 

MacTechVpr

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Hi Brook, yeah I presoak all my new wicking before vaping.
You stated "contracts", where I used "collapse" and Mac used "fibrillation" to describe the behavior of cc. I think we are all talking about the same thing though.
For NETs this phenomena is a game killer in PTs as the larger flavor molecules get trapped in the wick, reducing flow and leading to rapid carbonization of the juice at the coil.

:)cig

Evenin' all. Just in from a presentation so just a min to chime in on fibrillation. It's an industry term to describe lyocel fiber's surface delimitation. That's to say its a characteristic of the material and not a behavior or functional aspect. The separated elements resemble scilia or like narrowing pine needles on the slender stalk of the fiber. And these spread and array in diverse ways likely interweaving in the inter-fiber fluid pathways. It is a sufficiently prominent phenomenon that it changes the very appearance and texture of fabric woven from the fiber. And it likely occurs in time as the wick is exposed to temperatures exceeding 200F. The effect is cumulative with time but the extent is…your guess is as good as mine. We can't observe it. Only the result.

For me that meant gunked coil with JCTC at 24 hours. But for some flavorings or preferences it might be the key to sublimating distracting elements of the juice and promoting the dominant flavor/s (if that's what's desired).

A great tool in that sense CC.

Good luck.

:)
 
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f1vefour

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I have been vaping (mech) a mildly dirty NET (0.5 ohm ¦ 1.8mm ¦ parallel twisted 32g) in the Atomic wicked with rayon for about a week, I have had no issues with gunking like I experience with cotton.

My issue is after dripping about 4 to 5 ml the flavor and vapor production takes a dive, so basically I must rewick every day or two. With cotton I barely lose flavor after vaping the same amount of liquid but I lose vapor production due to coil build-up.

So to me rayon is a bit better, either way after a day or two I must rewick when vaping a semi-dirty NET. With rayon there is little to no build-up so rewicking is easier, with cotton the build-up may be bad enough that it causes coil misalignment while attempting to pull the cotton out.
 

cigatron

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So to me rayon is a bit better, either way after a day or two I must rewick when vaping a semi-dirty NET. With rayon there is little to no build-up so rewicking is easier, with cotton the build-up may be bad enough that it causes coil misalignment while attempting to pull the cotton out.


A trick I read somewhere is to dryburn the cotton wick (outdoors). A couple of pulses on the fire button will burn the wick to char and makes it easy to remove without harming the build integrity.

:)cig
 

MacTechVpr

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I have been vaping (mech) a mildly dirty NET (0.5 ohm ¦ 1.8mm ¦ parallel twisted 32g) in the Atomic wicked with rayon for about a week, I have had no issues with gunking like I experience with cotton.

My issue is after dripping about 4 to 5 ml the flavor and vapor production takes a dive, so basically I must rewick every day or two. With cotton I barely lose flavor after vaping the same amount of liquid but I lose vapor production due to coil build-up.

So to me rayon is a bit better, either way after a day or two I must rewick when vaping a semi-dirty NET. With rayon there is little to no build-up so rewicking is easier, with cotton the build-up may be bad enough that it causes coil misalignment while attempting to pull the cotton out.

That's a tight twist, tight build (if tensioned) I gather, 6 twained turns (pairs) dual-coil? Tough one with 32. I have a few successful one's with 30 and 31.

My hand control isn't what it used to be even in the one year hand winding (which btw was Jun 13). I totally missed it! Too busy.

Also in fairness to comparison, even though my JCTC is benign next to a full bore NET, I only vape 100% VG (with a few exceptions for testing to 70/30).

You're running a lot more power with rayon. My lowest usually for tobacco is .835 in a Trident. I like it very warm but hot just doesn't cut it. The .65Ω on my Raiju's been exceptional. I wish I didn't have to rewick every other day tho. There are four devices I'd love to keep tobacco on and it's really tedious. I am getting super output on tests of my mystery dripper, the Kryptonite, with dual vertical 29/6/2.38mm with Nextel at ~.385Ω and tensioned it's one of the coolest vapes I have. Go figure. We'll I have and believe it's all about efficient energy transfer. It's no surprise. The coolest densest best production (for it's res, .98Ω) is the single 6/29 on 2.38mm, Nextel vertical in my zMonkey CE. Most efficient device I have bar none. I had planned to drop CC in it but it's going dual Nextel along with the several 454's I acquired for B&M demo.


347446d1403061126-protank-microcoil-discussion-img_0879a.jpg



F1ve I'm also looking forward to a string of testing of 2.2mm, an interesting option for newer PT's as well perhaps. Thought I read it might fit the slot. On drippers, I'd like to approximate the deflection achieved on 1/16" with XC-132 on the thicker media with this 2.2mm Ø. I think it may work well for some juices and stack that up against CC. It's another round of testing I need to squeeze in there and stocking up on appropriate gear to accommodate it. I thought I'd seen you mention the Ø recently.

Goodnight all and good luck.

:)
 
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