Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Fair enough Bill, we are getting close to the point of repeating ourselves. I think we all know where everyone stands on this issue.

One last word on innovation ; the Taifun and kayfun are innovative products, I agree. The Semovar and Provari aren't in my opinion. They are improvements on the Vamo and other Chinese PV's and higher quality, but not a significant advancement in vape quality. I didn't get a better vape on my Provari than my Vamo, even though I paid six time as much for it !

I am currently in Seattle and will be for the next ten days. Back to coils and wicking issues when I get back home ! Too much time spent on counterfeiters and trademark trolls already


Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

Maz, I do get a significantly better vape on my Provari and on my Semovar, than I did on any China made Mods, as have thousands of others. There are hundreds of threads on ECF that go into detail about why this is so. I don't want to start a Provari thing on here, but the vape on even the Evic, with its high end China chip doesn't compare, and my favorite device was the Sigelei V3, which I still feel is the best China mod under $100. Given your beliefs, though, I now understand why you make your point. I think you may be in the minority on this one of experienced vapers. Pulsed width modulation doesn't compare in my book to the either the Provari or the Semovar. My two cents. Glad we're off the counterfeit wars! Best regards, my friend.

 

[MacTechVpr]

One last word on innovation ; the Taifun and Kayfun are innovative products, I agree. The Semovar and Provari aren't in my opinion. They are improvements on the Vamo and other Chinese PV's and higher quality, but not a significant advancement in vape quality. I didn't get a better vape on my Provari than my Vamo, even though I paid six time as much for it !

Maz, I do get a significantly better vape on my Provari and on my Semovar, than I did on any China made Mods, as have thousands of others. There are hundreds of threads on ECF that go into detail about why this is so. I don't want to start a Provari thing on here, but the vape on even the Evic, with its high end China chip doesn't compare, and my favorite device was the Sigelei V3, which I still feel is the best China mod under $100. Given your beliefs, though, I now understand why you make your point. I think you may be in the minority on this one of experienced vapers. Pulsed width modulation doesn't compare in my book to the either the Provari or the Semovar. My two cents. Glad we're off the counterfeit wars! Best regards, my friend.

Might as well. I'm up early and a busy day planned. But, whewww…glad we're getting the tails tucked in on this one.

I'm reminded of the example of the street corner accident with witnesses on either corner. One says one car struck the other; on the other corner though (lacking that benefit of that view) the witness neither saw it, nor heard it.

Rounding it back on the theme here. I'm kinda like both witnesses where these products and testing for the KPT are concerned. I'm with ya max on the VAMO. Couldn't invest in Provari's with the number of devices I've used. Prohibitively expensive inasmuch as I prefer US and original production. And what exactly was the return on investment? An interesting corollary. Also for the general consumer. Value for price. And Bill, the Sigelei's have proved incredible work horses in their efficiency and reliability irrespective of the arguably questionable advantage of their PWM to some. The big surprise came from the anemic? eVic for its inapparent ruggedness and efficiency. It's chip's resistance measurement accuracy is superb and demonstrably superior. When other devices both PV's and cartometers failed to cope with t.m.c.'s sometimes imperceptible breaks in adhesion (producing wonky results before full oxidation) I could invariably count on an eVic to read right in progress and burn in the element to it's target res. So effectively and consistently that the eVic's (numerous at one point) were relegated to initial burn in duty full time.

If ever Provari innovates to include a VW modality, I might consider buying one. Even a 20W device which is probably adequate for most folks purposes. In fact thinking of getting another ZNA like that. In context, there is a great deal to be said for warranty and support. The availability of service and replacement parts. Something elsewhere virtually absent. And it makes me wonder why? Just like the noodle wind coil most still vape today…even a cheap price is not worth the sheer disposability, i.e. trash worthiness, and lack of real world reliability we are paying good money for. It rather baffles me that we do, as consumers (my case is somewhat an exception due to the number required).

I would add that in the year (almost) now that I've been vaping I've seen the quality deteriorate in just too many of the producs I buy (except the nose-to-nose race for this week's mech fav). And that is extremely disconcerting, regardless of price level, considering the profits being made by some particularly in China. Less so and there is where my sympathies lie…with the innovators. As they must contend with what is increasingly to me a race to the bottom as cheap production seeks to outpace its markets. And that I fear favors nobody.

I tolerate this scenario conceptually with the rationalization like you maz that if these inexpensive alternatives help more get through this quicker, I'm down. Not going to be a perfectionist or ideologue on issues like quality. But you know maz at the end of the day, it must be. That we get the quality we can afford, and sustain.

Used to be what America was about, years ago.

Good luck all.

 

[cigatron]

Built over a hundred contact mc's now in a couple dozen configurations but have not had any luck vaping more than 3/4ml of my favorite net (pretty dirty) before changing the cotton or dryburning rxw wicking.

My new builds: 30awg, 8/7, (2.2mm), 1.97ohm
(Non-contact) macro coils are rock'n to 4ml without issue. Pushing beyond 4ml is hit or miss but that's still 8X the wick life.
Also not detecting any vape density or flavor deficit with the non-contact coils after the first 1/2ml as the (contact) micro coils are waning at that point and fail to provide a good vape shortly thereafter. The concentration of stoney pigments collected in the contact mc prevents proper wicking and ends up requiring long (8-10 sec) draws. The non-contact coil on the other hand allows the hot vapor to exit (between) the winds. My theory.
This non-contact noodle will be my go to coil for dirty nets until the next unicorn comes along.
For clean juices .067" id rxw wicked contact coils are still my preference. ymmv

cig

 

[f1vefour]

I came to a similar conclusion cig, many many pages back.

I was able to rock a non-contact coil with great results.

 

[cigatron]

I came to a similar conclusion cig, many many pages back.

I was able to rock a non-contact coil with great results.

Yep 54, non-contact coils went on my things-to-do list after reading your post.
Wound them up using the cigatron hand winder with
4-40 thread from a screw inserted instead of a drill bit.
Still wound under tension before torching. Perfect spacing every time.
Still trying to get the wicking density down to stave off the occasional spitting and popping; if that's what's causing it. Any thoughts?

cig

 

[Mazinny]

Might as well. I'm up early and a busy day planned. But, whewww…glad we're getting the tails tucked in on this one.

I'm reminded of the example of the street corner accident with witnesses on either corner. One says one car struck the other; on the other corner though (lacking that benefit of that view) the witness neither saw it, nor heard it.

Rounding it back on the theme here. I'm kinda like both witnesses where these products and testing for the KPT are concerned. I'm with ya max on the VAMO. Couldn't invest in Provari's with the number of devices I've used. Prohibitively expensive inasmuch as I prefer US and original production. And what exactly was the return on investment? An interesting corollary. Also for the general consumer. Value for price. And Bill, the Sigelei's have proved incredible work horses in their efficiency and reliability irrespective of the arguably questionable advantage of their PWM to some. The big surprise came from the anemic? eVic for its inapparent ruggedness and efficiency. It's chip's resistance measurement accuracy is superb and demonstrably superior. When other devices both PV's and cartometers failed to cope with t.m.c.'s sometimes imperceptible breaks in adhesion (producing wonky results before full oxidation) I could invariably count on an eVic to read right in progress and burn in the element to it's target res. So effectively and consistently that the eVic's (numerous at one point) were relegated to initial burn in duty full time.

If ever Provari innovates to include a VW modality, I might consider buying one. Even a 20W device which is probably adequate for most folks purposes. In fact thinking of getting another ZNA like that. In context, there is a great deal to be said for warranty and support. The availability of service and replacement parts. Something elsewhere virtually absent. And it makes me wonder why? Just like the noodle wind coil most still vape today…even a cheap price is not worth the sheer disposability, i.e. trash worthiness, and lack of real world reliability we are paying good money for. It rather baffles me that we do, as consumers (my case is somewhat an exception due to the number required).

I would add that in the year (almost) now that I've been vaping I've seen the quality deteriorate in just too many of the producs I buy (except the nose-to-nose race for this week's mech fav). And that is extremely disconcerting, regardless of price level, considering the profits being made by some particularly in China. Less so and there is where my sympathies lie…with the innovators. As they must contend with what is increasingly to me a race to the bottom as cheap production seeks to outpace its markets. And that I fear favors nobody.

I tolerate this scenario conceptually with the rationalization like you maz that if these inexpensive alternatives help more get through this quicker, I'm down. Not going to be a perfectionist or ideologue on issues like quality. But you know maz at the end of the day, it must be. That we get the quality we can afford, and sustain.

Used to be what America was about, years ago.

Good luck all.

The provari is a fine pv. In fact, it was the first pv I bought after ego twist. Bought it for $ 200, used it for 3 months and sold it for $ 160. Nothing innovative about it though. I bought a $ 35 vamo when I wanted to upgrade to a VW device, then bought a $ 40 innokin svd, for the pwm factor. I might be in the minority, but I can't tell the difference in vape quality. same top on a provari and vamo at 9 watts, blindfolded, same to me. Oops, no wattage on the provari, meant to say 5 volts

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[MacTechVpr]

Built over a hundred contact mc's now in a couple dozen configurations but have not had any luck vaping more than 3/4ml of my favorite net (pretty dirty) before changing the cotton or dryburning rxw wicking.

My new builds: 30awg, 8/7, (2.2mm), 1.97ohm
(Non-contact) macro coils are rock'n to 4ml without issue. Pushing beyond 4ml is hit or miss but that's still 8X the wick life.
Also not detecting any vape density or flavor deficit with the non-contact coils after the first 1/2ml as the (contact) micro coils are waning at that point and fail to provide a good vape shortly thereafter. The concentration of stoney pigments collected in the contact mc prevents proper wicking and ends up requiring long (8-10 sec) draws. The non-contact coil on the other hand allows the hot vapor to exit (between) the winds. My theory.
This non-contact noodle will be my go to coil for dirty nets until the next unicorn comes along.
For clean juices .067" id rxw wicked contact coils are still my preference. ymmv

cig

I came to a similar conclusion cig, many many pages back.

I was able to rock a non-contact coil with great results.

Yep 54, non-contact coils went on my things-to-do list after reading your post.
Wound them up using the cigatron hand winder with
4-40 thread from a screw inserted instead of a drill bit.
Still wound under tension before torching. Perfect spacing every time.
Still trying to get the wicking density down to stave off the occasional spitting and popping; if that's what's causing it. Any thoughts?

cig

Ooohh, lots of goodies here. Thanks for all the dope.

First f1ve, should've taken this up further with you earlier. The vagaries of life in the fast lane taking too much on stops me at times. No change today but you can't let things pile up either.

Cig, thanks for your post. Before I forget, your 2.2mm wind Ø, is it a screw? From where did you derive your pitch diameter (contact point of wire in screw groove) to determine the Ø? Can you site the ref. or link please? And from this maybe you both can derive why I didn't pursue this solution to fashion a process for people just learning how to make proper electrical coils. Can you imagine the mayhem of folks really trying and the complexity of posts referring sources (and conflicts in data, no doubt). I thoroughly examined this process and found it so cumbersome as to be prohibitive and obsolete on its face. It's hard to get nomenclature/data on screws. Even for experienced buyers. These days, knowing far better the precise likes of the KPT or any clearo as to distinct diameters, these preferences could be better isolated (published). So Cig, if you have the spec for the 2.2 please share.

Early on in my testing before I introduced the concept of tensioned forceps winds, I worked with tensioned screw winds and they were very effective for very dense and pigmented juices. If my efforts had been purely selfish, I would have stopped right there as dense tobacco's remain at the heart of my favorites. Not my purpose here as you both understand I'm sure.

To specifics, I found very tight winds on very narrow pitches ideal. Concur with you cig on the spacing for vapor release but for different reasons. The spacing must be just wide enough to avoid the buildup of juice carbonization for the anticipated life of the cotton (before it reaches pigment saturation itself). However, not unnecessarily or one risks increasing resistance due to coil length. For me the favorable results were never more than two days, about 3 tank fills, 1st + 2 x 3/4 fills. Mind you I was also running a minimum of 2-4 test tanks with a given wind/juice combo (just for cotton). Still I would try to chain each at least once throughout the day. Even though better for NET's not really an exceptional improvement came out of this. And I tried every density/dia arrangement possible. Frankly, the reason I have not returned to cotton and never published spec's. Now, with the advent of more directional KGD I may as I'm not finding it as readily saturated by pigmentation as the haphazard fiber arrays typical of ordinary cotton like balled or rolled organic.


Mystery dripper intermission...

These days I find that I achieve the most flavor neutral wicking with Nextel, KGD a close second. I disagree with one or both of you in that I see a distinct advantage in flavor for non-contact coils particularly twisted-pair until the point that turn-to-turn accumulation of hardened pigment starts to significantly affect performance. That's about 2-3 days if used moderately. I'm usually replacing cotton anyway 2nd day of use. By then pigment accumulation in cotton, any, is overbearing regardless of the condition of the t.m.c.

I rejected cotton for the KPT primarily because of the density issues with varying winds. Too difficult to keep it straight and get it right consistently. Particularly if you want to play with different media types. But I walk around with 6 devices sometimes (when I'm not carrying around Felix's bag-o-trix). And the thought of trying to remember if I might have to pick apart the non-contact turns on the fly for the drippers (and do I have one in my back pocket?) is…well just can't get my arms around it. Too much fiddly even for me. Hard enough to remember to keep all the hatches (screws) battened.

There comes a point that you have to decide between utility and optimal performance (pleasure from the experience). My versatile median is quite high in its expectations. Maybe it should be higher and I should venture some more twisted conventionals. Lordy, lordy, where do we find the time?

Good luck gentlemen.

 

[f1vefour]

Yep 54, non-contact coils went on my things-to-do list after reading your post.
Wound them up using the cigatron hand winder with
4-40 thread from a screw inserted instead of a drill bit.
Still wound under tension before torching. Perfect spacing every time.
Still trying to get the wicking density down to stave off the occasional spitting and popping; if that's what's causing it. Any thoughts?

cig

It's definitely related to wick density, too little and it doesn't make good coil to wick contact and pops like hell...too much and it chokes of course.

I always had some popping due to the pulse width modulation of my APV. Much less when attached to a mech.

 

[MacTechVpr]

It's definitely related to wick density,too little and it doesn't make good coil to wick contact and pops like hell...too much and it chokes of course.

I always had some popping due to the pulse width modulation of my APV. Much less when attached to a mech.

Knew I could count on you f1ve…and therein's the rub…what I was thinking the whole time I wrote my piece. My thesis has been about building optimal coils, i.e. non-shorting. Arrive at that as a base. And everywhere you find wire heating air you functionally have one — a loss of efficiency, energy passing to air. It's the relationship of wick to wind that you refer to above. To me it seems...the corollary is maximum flavor/vapor potential is directly proportional to wind efficiency. Where does that put cotton? Well high up there except that cotton's lifespan is not much different than silica for pigment accumulation and degradation (wilting) and therefore erosion of wire contact.

So I've had a bit of a conundrum. I pretty much prefer cotton in everything. But how do we teach newcomers to enjoy a consistent vape in the midst of these challenges with cotton? I think a great many folks are experiencing what they believe to be a great vape, increasing their power output to achieve it, by either wire config or power regulation. But that's not exactly saying it's the best or most efficient.

I do like the popping though.



Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Specifics:

Built over a hundred contact mc's now in a couple dozen configurations but have not had any luck vaping more than 3/4ml of my favorite net (pretty dirty) before changing the cotton or dryburning rxw wicking.

I'm getting min. 1st + 4xhalf-fills on my densest tobacco (JC VG Tenn Cured). About one of the most clogging flavoring pigments I've encountered. Much speculation if there's an NET component in there. It utterly gunks any tight coil in two days on a dedicated tank if used more than sparingly.

My testing has included variations of JCTC as a base with up to 20% of milder tobacco blends. And I've been able to take it out much further than the above but surprisingly at moderate nic levels. Not so, high or low, and I really couldn't tell you why despite better than six dozen variations.

Rich tobacco is hard on any wick media. I've had milder tobacco varieties that have run out six weeks on Nextel, e.g. Ginger's RY4/TVR RY4, a very dense hazelnut flue cured.

Workarounds, in general, avoid straining the juice…

• Employ pair of mods/tanks
• Switch to alt when chaining
• Avoid overheating tank (hot to touch)
• Watch voltage in VV/VW (warm battery, I try to drop at 3.8v)
• No vape below half-fill (something I do routinely with tobacco)
• Consistent wick blow out when refilling
• Early cycling to wash/dry burn cycle (2-days)

The latter to postpone as long as possible the inevitable stony pigment accumulation you mentioned cig.

Another approach, rewick before discoloration or charring. You can always use the wick for a flavor wick. And although a cost it will maintain the optimal flavor/flow potential for a thick NET. I do it often on my personal tank/s because I can't be bothered at times putting them through the wash cycle (risk mixing heads with test tanks). Or rotate NET heads out after first use to milder juices (if compatible).

I'm almost invariably running 29 AWG on .07" @ 9W these days (as much as tobacco seems to crave high wattage). It's def poss to go higher with RxW but I believe what you're seeing is actually the very attribute that contributes to the flavor potential. Treating really tightens up the capillary spaces in Nextel, even more so than cleaning. For very dense NET's where longevity is an issue the SnG (cleaned variety) might be effective. I use both types with good results but do observe the phenomenon you note. Thanks for the validation.

LMK what juice you're running.

Good luck.

 

[cigatron]

Specifics:

I'm getting min. 1st + 4xhalf-fills on my densest tobacco (JC VG Tenn Cured). About one of the most clogging flavoring pigments I've encountered. Much speculation if there's an NET component in there. It utterly gunks any tight coil in two days on a dedicated tank if used more than sparingly.

My testing has included variations of JCTC as a base with up to 20% of milder tobacco blends. And I've been able to take it out much further than the above but surprisingly at moderate nic levels. Not so, high or low, and I really couldn't tell you why despite better than six dozen variations.

Rich tobacco is hard on any wick media. I've had milder tobacco varieties that have run out six weeks on Nextel, e.g. Ginger's RY4/TVR RY4, a very dense hazelnut flue cured.

Workarounds, in general, avoid straining the juice…

• Employ pair of mods/tanks
• Switch to alt when chaining
• Avoid overheating tank (hot to touch)
• Watch voltage in VV/VW (warm battery, I try to drop at 3.8v)
• No vape below half-fill (something I do routinely with tobacco)
• Consistent wick blow out when refilling
• Early cycling to wash/dry burn cycle (2-days)

The latter to postpone as long as possible the inevitable stony pigment accumulation you mentioned cig.

Another approach, rewick before discoloration or charring. You can always use the wick for a flavor wick. And although a cost it will maintain the optimal flavor/flow potential for a thick NET. I do it often on my personal tank/s because I can't be bothered at times putting them through the wash cycle (risk mixing heads with test tanks). Or rotate NET heads out after first use to milder juices (if compatible).

I'm almost invariably running 29 AWG on .07" @ 9W these days (as much as tobacco seems to crave high wattage). It's def poss to go higher with RxW but I believe what you're seeing is actually the very attribute that contributes to the flavor potential. Treating really tightens up the capillary spaces in Nextel, even more so than cleaning. For very dense NET's where longevity is an issue the SnG (cleaned variety) might be effective. I use both types with good results but do observe the phenomenon you note. Thanks for the validation.

LMK what juice you're running.

Good luck.

Mac, this site http://theoreticalmachinist.com/Threads_UnifiedImperial.aspx may be helpful to satisfy your curiosity but as I have stated before "you gotta run whatcha brung" around here. Plus or minus .001" in diameter is not going to make or break a coil wind as long as it is consistant. Even through my greatest efforts to control winding tension by hand my tmc's vary slightly in diameter.
For the sake of those attempting to rebuild kanger heads I don't push majoring in the minors. Things that are beyond their control like machining tolerances for drill bits, screws, positive pins, wick slots and the like are not stressed as they are either insignificant or can be easily compensated for by the general populous. But don't get me wrong, (I) love majoring in the minors and that's why I'm here and enjoying your thoroughness and protectionism.
Through all my discoveries here on ecf and experimentation I have accepted the conclusion that maintaining wind-to-wind diameter and spacing is paramount while overall diameter is subjective.
Wicking density, structure and permeability is another major contributor to a consistantly acceptable vape.
Using dirty ayuss'd nets for experimentation has proven to be the most expedient way to test coil and wicking methodologies. I can quickly determine whether or not I'm moving in the right direction.
That said I do believe contact tmc's have their place; just not in the net arena.
Next test will be nextel slim wicked 31awg .067" id
non-contact coil, no flavor wick. The next unicorn? I don't know but if it will allow 8ml between dryburns/rinsing with my dirtiest net I'll be pleased; and on to the next unicorn.

Oops, almost forgot to answer your other question. I measured the coil id with a gauge pin after unscrewing it from the 4-40 winding mandrel.

Thanks to all here,

cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, this site http://theoreticalmachinist.com/Threads_UnifiedImperial.aspx may be helpful to satisfy your curiosity but as I have stated before "you gotta run whatcha brung" around here. Plus or minus .001" in diameter is not going to make or break a coil wind as long as it is consistant. Even through my greatest efforts to control winding tension by hand my tmc's vary slightly in diameter.
For the sake of those attempting to rebuild kanger heads I don't push majoring in the minors. Things that are beyond their control like machining tolerances for drill bits, screws, positive pins, wick slots and the like are not stressed as they are either insignificant or can be easily compensated for by the general populous. But don't get me wrong, (I) love majoring in the minors and that's why I'm here and enjoying your thoroughness and protectionism.
Through all my discoveries here on ecf and experimentation I have accepted the conclusion that maintaining wind-to-wind diameter is paramount while overall diameter is subjective.
Wicking density, structure and permeability is another major contributor to a consistantly acceptable vape.
Using dirty ayuss'd nets for experimentation has proven to be the most expedient way to test coil and wicking methodologies. I can quickly determine whether or not I'm moving in the right direction.
That said I do believe contact tmc's have their place; just not in the net arena.
Next test will be nextel slim wicked 31awg .067" id
non-contact coil, no flavor wick. The next unicorn? I don't know but if it will allow 8ml between dryburns/rinsing with my dirtiest net I'll be pleased; and on to the next unicorn.

Thanks to all here,

cig

LOL. I agree!!! If you think I'm preaching perfection…you have it upside down and backwards though. The technique of tension winding cannot do that…it's impossible. For reasons I've discussed as well as Bill the Wizard whose done some handsome research on Kanthal wire imperfections. Point apart as you allude to, even if we build the absolutely flawless build. There are so many instances of out-of-tolerance imperfections in consumer tanks and even high-end gear that we cannot conceivably overcome them with any build. I do not believe that is possible. I agree with you if that's what you mean folks try to work around it but don't even understand what is happening. Case in point...the effect of out of spec 510 pin diameters and the impact of termination on silly putty grommets. Maddening if you don't understand the engineering.

Ergo, we are here, you and I sorting that mess out. Putting into practice some simple methods to help folks get over. That is all. I don't write about complexity here. Although my explanations are sometimes. The method is about simplicity.

This is about giving ourselves a fighting change to standardize what we can control. If I'm suggesting anything it's consistency in our wind selection and execution. That's how we gain a frame of reference about our vape that's meaningful and which we can use as the measure to maintain and improve our enjoyment. Three things: Tension, geometry or symmetry and termination. There is no perfect catch all. Never was. Never can be. But there can be the happy median for each of us with these three tools.

As for NET efficiency. I think many of the observations I hear are subjective, others wishful thinking. You can't defy the physics. I agree on minute separation (forestalling turn carbonization degradation) at the expense of efficiency (which accelerates the preceding) appears to be helpful with NET's. If there was an optimal, it would be a compromise. But there can't be. It's a trade off. So the perceived result may logically be subjective. Often that's what nature presents us. Don't ask me to decide which is better.

Agree with you wholeheartedly cig on wicking density, structure and permeability. Fit the wick to the wire is what I always say and my eventual intro of tension was all about. Eliminating the short that plagues us all with the enigmatic 510 design of the KPT.

Good luck all and thanks for your thoughts cig, as always.



p.s. Thank you for the thread tool! Awesome.

p.s.s. I could never get a #4-40 to seat at the bottom of the slot of a KPT. You'll have to show me how to do that sometimes.

 

[cigatron]

LOL. I agree!!! If you think I'm preaching perfection…you have it upside down and backwards though. The technique of tension winding cannot do that…it's impossible. For reasons I've discussed as well as Bill the Wizard whose done some handsome research on Kanthal wire imperfections. Point apart as you allude to, even if we build the absolutely flawless build. There are so many instances of out-of-tolerance imperfections in consumer tanks and even high-end gear that we cannot conceivable overcome them with any build. I do not believe that is possible. I agree with you if that's what you mean folks try to work around it but don't even understand what is happening. Case in point...the effect of out of spec 510 pin diameters and the impact of termination on silly putty grommets. Maddening if you don't understand the engineering.

Ergo, we are here, you and I sorting that mess out. Putting into practice some simple methods to help folks get over. That is all. I don't write about complexity here. Although my explanations are sometimes. The method is about simplicity.

This is about giving ourselves a fighting change to standardize what we can control. If I'm suggesting anything it's consistency in our wind selection and execution. That's how we gain a frame of reference about our vape that's meaningful and which we can use as the measure to maintain and improve our enjoyment. Three things: Tension, geometry or symmetry and termination. There is no perfect catch all. Never was. Never can be. But there can be the happy median for each of us with these three tools.

As for NET efficiency. I think many of the observations I hear are subjective, others wishful thinking. You can't defy the physics. I agree on minute separation (forestalling turn carbonization degradation) at the expense of efficiency (which accelerates the preceding) appears to be helpful with NET's. If there was an optimal, it would be a compromise. But there can't be. It's a trade off. So the perceived result may logically be subjective. Often that's what nature presents us. Don't ask me to decide which is better.

Agree with you wholeheartedly cig on wicking density, structure and permeability. Fit the wick to the wire is what I always say and my eventual intro of tension was all about. Eliminating the short that plagues us all with the enigmatic 510 design of the KPT.

Good luck all and thanks for your thoughts cig, as always.



p.s. Thank you for the thread tool! Awesome.

You and I are on the same page, we just have different ways of expressing it. Yours (elegant, thoughtful and philosophical) mine (not so much).
We do however seem to approach tasks in the same manner. Find it's shortcomings, figure out how it works, propose improvements, establish metrics to measure by, evaluate performance gains/losses against metrics and redesign all the while weighing the cost/improvement ratio. In the end everyone benifits.
Just glad I found some folks to share with. Few people care to suffer the pita factor involved with running tightly controlled experiments where each modification is evaluated having elliminated as many variables as possible. It takes time, patience and the desire to break the mold of complacency. I'm with you all the way; wherever that leads.
My next step is to achieve sigma-6 by plotting bell curves of my results (not really)

cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

You and I are on the same page, Yes we are! we just have different ways of expressing it. Yours (elegant, thoughtful and philosophical) mine (not so much). I wouldn't say that. But thanks for the thought cig.
We do however seem to approach tasks in the same manner. Find it's shortcomings, figure out how it works, propose improvements, establish metrics to measure by, evaluate performance gains/losses against metrics and redesign all the while weighing the cost/improvement ratio. In the end everyone benifits.
Just glad I found some folks to share with. Few people care to suffer the pita factor involved with running tightly controlled experiments where each modification is evaluated having elliminated as many variables as possible. It takes time, patience and the desire to break the mold of complacency. I'm with you all the way; wherever that leads.
My next step is to achieve sigma-6 by plotting bell curves of my results (not really) Hope not!

cig

Not to worry cig. We're creating an army of chefs de cuisine extraordinaire right here on ECF and on this thread.

A gratuitous mystery dripper pic…

Good luck all.

 

[cigatron]

Specifics:


Workarounds, in general, avoid straining the juice…

• Employ pair of mods/tank
Cig (run 1 tank untill it fails)

• Switch to alt when chaining
Cig (chain the heck out of it)

• Avoid overheating tank (hot to touch)
Cig (hold tank tightly in hand to quickly reduce temp then chain some more)

• Watch voltage in VV/VW (warm battery, I try to drop at 3.8v)
Cig (chain it till it blinks (ego batts)

• No vape below half-fill (something I do routinely with tobacco)
Cig (vape till as empty as possible w/o burning wick then shake remaining yucky juice to top of tank. Rinse tank (if water is available) and refill.

• Consistent wick blow out when refilling
Cig (never)

• Early cycling to wash/dry burn cycle (2-days)
Cig (vape it till it tastes bad)

Mac, all, clearly in my process of (testing) I use none of above mentioned precautionary methods even though they all will be quite benificial once I have settled on a build.
Figured it might be advantageous to share my vaping style for comparison sake. I vape like I smoked. 8-12 lung inhales (4-5 sec draw time) then wait for the nic fit (30-45 min) then chain again.

cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, all, clearly in my process of (testing) I use none of above mentioned precautionary methods even though they all will be quite benificial once I have settled on a build.
Figured it might be advantageous to share my vaping style for comparison sake. I vape like I smoked. 8-12 lung inhales (4-5 sec draw time) then wait for the nic fit (30-45 min) then chain again.

cig

Good God man, I chain like a madman, 24-7. The 10-sec cutoff is my friend. I have 35 mods and three chargers. I would destroy most builds. Perhaps now you may see the necessity of the above. But I also run tank tests for mild, moderate and typical advanced use as described by surveys on this forum and others. I just know from the school of hard knocks (my own) that these remedies may ease the pain, LOL.

I pretty much have discontinued continuity studies on most clearo's. Know with most media/wire/wind configs what to expect. Running some now on KGD and perhaps lyocel soon. Periodically I run a refresher if in doubt about my notes.

Good luck cig.

 

[cigatron]

Good God man, I chain like a madman, 24-7. The 10-sec cutoff is my friend. I have 35 mods and three chargers. I would destroy most builds. Perhaps now you may see the necessity of the above. But I also run tank tests for mild, moderate and typical advanced use as described by surveys on this forum and others. I just know from the school of hard knocks (my own) that these remedies may ease the pain, LOL.

I pretty much have discontinued continuity studies on most clearo's. Know with most media/wire/wind configs what to expect. Running some now on KGD and perhaps lyocel soon. Periodically I run a refresher if in doubt about my notes.

Good luck cig.

Mac, I have a couple of options with the new non-contact .067 id nextel slim build; 31 or 32awg.

32 is awful flimsy but will heat up quicker and provide wider spacing. Once I install the nextel it will never be removed.

31 is thicker and will allow more winds with tighter spacing and longer life. But I really don't know how far apart the spacing needs to be for nextel.

If you were shooting for 1.9-2.0 ohms would it be 31 or 32?

Or I could order some 3mm rxw and use it with my existing 30awg 8/7 2.2 mm id 1.97ohm non-contact coils maybe? What's the od of the 3mm rxw?

cig

 

[Mazinny]

Few people care to suffer the pita factor involved with running tightly controlled experiments where each modification is evaluated having elliminated as many variables as possible. It takes time, patience and the desire to break the mold of complacency.

cig

THIS.

And that is why I am so grateful you and Mac and others share the results of your experimentation with those of us who don't have the same curiosity and patience ! This type of curiosity, patience, and quest for improvement (in any field ), is not common (despite Macs proclamations to the contrary ). Long may it continue !

 

[cigatron]

Below are some pics of the cigatron hand winder adapted to wind 2.2mm non-contact (uniformly spaced) coils on a 4-40 screw. The results are shown with the positive lead deliberately biased towards the coil center to better match the terminating position at the grommet. This has proven to be indispensable for warding off the dreaded and evil banana coil syndrome.

 

[cigatron]

Good God man, I chain like a madman, 24-7. The 10-sec cutoff is my friend. I have 35 mods and three chargers. I would destroy most builds. Perhaps now you may see the necessity of the above. But I also run tank tests for mild, moderate and typical advanced use as described by surveys on this forum and others. I just know from the school of hard knocks (my own) that these remedies may ease the pain, LOL.

I pretty much have discontinued continuity studies on most clearo's. Know with most media/wire/wind configs what to expect. Running some now on KGD and perhaps lyocel soon. Periodically I run a refresher if in doubt about my notes.

Good luck cig.

Oh yes, I agree, and I see we are still on the same page. My testing strategy from the beginning has been for worst case scenario; vape it like you smoked it or worse.
I have read in many places that we will never be able to vape an ego with a clearo like we smoked; but I think we are getting close; VERY close indeed.
Hey, is that a unicorn I see?

cig