Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[beckdg]

i could theorize on what he didn't elaborate on. possible it would be that the grommet itself is likely to be bunched as 28Ga is rather robust and takes up quite a bit of room. he could also have been just speculating that you want your legs as straight as possible to insert the coil easily into the base. i'd have to look back at the vid a bit, i think.

i held the legs while inserting both the grommet and the bottom pin. i kept the coil half height until both were loosely seated in place. then i wiggled the grommet and pin while setting the height of the coil by pulling on the legs before working them off. easier than it would appear, but tedious, nonetheless.

well worth the effort, indeed!!!

i'm at a loss as far as photography and video are concerned ATM. my camera that's worth a darn for macro shots (not even exactly a DSLR, but does the trick) is amid a slew of boxes piled as high and wide as the day is long. unfortunately, the box it's in will likely not be labeled anything resembling photography as the rest of my equipment is randomly spread out elsewhere. my video cam is on the fritz and won't even power on... and among my 5 or 6 web cams, there isn't a single one capable of showing such detail.

one thing i did overcome. when i took the coil off the mandrel to burn it in place, crimping it with my tool (in this case, a pair of 6" straight kelly hemostatic forceps) caused a bow in the coil that i later re-threaded onto the mandrel to straighten out and re-burn. this was my first attempt, so re-burning was an exercise. repetition was key.

i couldn't imagine trying to place everything with a wick in. once the coil is in place, you want to make sure the entire coil heats and glows evenly. you need to make sure you didn't screw anything up putting everything together. you may also need to fudge placement a bit to make sure it doesn't contact the smoke stack or the sides of the head. i think the wick would add a whole other level of difficulty mere mortals would rarely be ever to overcome. thus i'm not sure a pre-manufactured wick material would be a good choice for these builds. i'm not sure how they'd thread through the coil once it's built and placed correctly. that's the key that cotton seems to unlock here. at least in my few weeks of interwebs found infinite wisdom. to tell the truth, i could be chasing a horse when a sparrow is the target. i dunno......

maybe the ekowool is more rigid than i'm thinking. maybe a ceramic or steel wick would suffice and/or outshine. i haven't the foggiest. i do know that cotton works a charm. marvelous, i might say.

oh... and i stand corrected. once the cotton is burnt in so to say, you can most certainly chain vape it at 15 Watts all day long as far as i now can tell. it's that first little while that the cotton wants to give a flavor. maybe i'm just not boiling sufficiently. maybe organic cotton doesn't have this tendency. don't know for sure yet. i have organic cotton, but the wife picked it up at a hair dressers supply joint, so i'm not as trusting as something made for medical purposes for some reason. i know (somewhat) the chemical tortures those women put their hair and skin through. thoughts of inhaling similar is quite the bit scary in my eyes. until i know better, at least.

i think 4.21 inches is a bit longer than my wrap if i were to venture a guess. i need to mic my equipment. haven't taken the time to walk out to the garage and grab my digital caliper. i know exactly where it is, too. just been chasing a sick 2 yr old and beating my head against the wall trying to keep the older 2 on track with their school work. been distracted to say the least. priorities, i guess. anyway, i would love to get diameters of everything i've tested so i can venture some guesses at what i'm actually putting out. though, i guess the end results are really a goal. for disclosures sake, i will say that a 5/64" RIDGID cobalt drill bit is what i used on my 28Ga. kanthal build. the smooth end, obviously. i can't say the diameter is perfect.

i'm absolutely positive it oxidized into a higher ohm. though i suspect just. my equipment isn't precision, so i suspect some rounding to get to just 2 digits, etc..

running a Vamo V3 with panasonic 18650 2900mah and protank II (now, since i reacted [finally] to the metal tip and had to change out a drip tip to plastic [i suspect nylon... from a vivi nova]... common for me... i can't wear jewelry or piercings no matter the grade or purity... or the metal)

 

[TafkanX]

A thought on getting larger diameter winds lower down in the coil head without deforming the coil... if you were to use a very small file to reduce the diameter of your winding guide on either end of the coil where the slots are would allow you to lower it into place without compromising the diameter where the coil sits. I hope I'm explaining myself clearly here. Obviously this would ruin the tool for whatever it was originally designed for, but if you're like me then whatever you're using has already become a dedicated vape-winding tool so this should not pose any problems. I will be running some experiments with this technique when I get a chance because this issue has recently given me a number of headaches as well.

 

[Flavored]

Fascinating, folks. The notion of a 12 wrap 28 g coil in a PT head was something I'd given up on. I was able to position it in only one time without shorts, so I'd given up, use those in the dripper only. Might have to try again.

 

[beckdg]

TakfanX - personally, i would not file anything. thinner coil (after filing) would result in higher resistance. higher resistance results in more heat. you want the heat concentrated at the coil, not adjacent to it. that's just my thinking on that. haven't confirmed validity, but don't think i will, either.

Flavored - i think straight legs before insertion are going to be very important for positioning. <EDIT>a valid argument posed for the repositioning back onto the mandrel (drill bit) prior to installation for fine tuning</EDIT> then centering once the build is complete will be imperative. i used a dental pick to push the edge closest to the inside of the head towards center thus centering the coil and wick.

 

[MacTechVpr]

It's definitely doable. It's just that a very particular care must be taken for the detailed observations on this thread and elsewhere here re MC's. Obviously Beck above has the touch and tenacity. Rip Trippers obviously got the hang. Like anything else it's a matter of experience and developing the right approach and intuition. It tends to become natural like so many things human beings are capable of achieving.

If that's what rocks ya, have at it!

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

...well worth the effort, indeed!!!

LOL. I am sure it is. I cut off my table of builds for 28g at about 1.7-1.8Ω. But it was sweet while I was there and sometimes pushing 10W. The PT's get very hot on me and it was a very warm vape for me. I didn't venture past on the PT. I've been working on easier builds for the folks and the data so they can get there. But I can't say I didn't read you posts longing. Sadly, we all gotta prioritize our time. <shrug>

Have a good one Beck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

TakfanX - personally, i would not file anything. thinner coil (after filing) would result in higher resistance. higher resistance results in more heat. you want the heat concentrated at the coil, not adjacent to it. that's just my thinking on that. haven't confirmed validity, but don't think i will, either.

Flavored - i think straight legs before insertion are going to be very important for positioning. <EDIT>a valid argument posed for the repositioning back onto the mandrel (drill bit) prior to installation for fine tuning</EDIT> then centering once the build is complete will be imperative. i used a dental pick to push the edge closest to the inside of the head towards center thus centering the coil and wick.

I think thou definitely got the magic goin' on.

Just sayin'.

 

[TafkanX]

And that's what i was worried about. I knew I wasnt describing my idea clearly. I wasn't talking about filing the coil at all, I was talking about filing grooves into the winding guide (the drill bit, needle, whatever you wrap your coils around) for the slots on the sides of the coil head so that it would drop into the coil head even though the diameter normally would not allow it to fit. That way you don't have to use a smaller diameter guide to place it in the coil head after you've got the coil wrapped, and as an added bonus it would probably help hold it in place a little better (the grooves would keep it from sliding). Does that make more sense?

 

[MacTechVpr]

And that's what i was worried about. I knew I wasnt describing my idea clearly. I wasn't talking about filing the coil at all, I was talking about filing grooves into the winding guide (the drill bit, needle, whatever you wrap your coils around) for the slots on the sides of the coil head so that it would drop into the coil head even though the diameter normally would not allow it to fit. That way you don't have to use a smaller diameter guide to place it in the coil head after you've got the coil wrapped, and as an added bonus it would probably help hold it in place a little better (the grooves would keep it from sliding). Does that make more sense?

I get it and an excellent idea…if you have the means to do it. It was a disappointment to realize you couldn't easily get more wick into the PT. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. And the procedure metalhed73 rounded up and that we've refined here helps get folks there. But tell you what, it's a great concept. there actually are double-ended screws that might fight that criteria. After all what we're after is known diameter's that closely match the wick media we want to use (or diameter).

So yea. Good thinin' Ba Ba Luis.

 

[MacTechVpr]

i could theorize on what he didn't elaborate on. possible it would be that the grommet itself is likely to be bunched as 28Ga is rather robust and takes up quite a bit of room. he could also have been just speculating that you want your legs as straight as possible to insert the coil easily into the base. i'd have to look back at the vid a bit, i think.

Sadly as I said at post #19 he didn't explain it very well. He repeats, "two wires going in the same direction, one over, one under, going in the same direction…" as he had just pulled them each in the direction and orientation of coil turn (not straight down, or same direction but opposing directions); and then, insists on double-checking that he has no high-turn (overlap) on either end of the coil. That's where it's at. It's not about leg's straight. Too much of that mantra from too many previous videos. With contact coils, what they really are, it's about the obvious…[uniform] contact. And the subject of this revision of prior micro coil videos is about symmetry. That's what Trip emphasizes here to everyone's benefit, including yours truly. That helped to nail it for me. It's about symmetrical orientation and contact. I did not build one, not a one, true contact coil, until I stopped ignoring those obvious points.

Maybe I'm belaboring this point but I hate to see people waste their time or be disappointed. It's a simple step to make sure leg termination is taught and opposed in assembly. Successful builders I watched were doing it intuitively when they showed me how "they did it". Maybe that's what's happening here. This process if performed simply and right is relatively easy and reproducible, consistently. I'd love to see more folks learn to do it. And Beck, you gotta walk before you can fly.

i held the legs while inserting both the grommet and the bottom pin. i kept the coil half height until both were loosely seated in place. then i wiggled the grommet and pin while setting the height of the coil by pulling on the legs before working them off. easier than it would appear, but tedious, nonetheless…well worth the effort, indeed!!!

It is, indeed. I regret I couldn't find that kind of consistency. But I'll give you that Beck, I'll def be join' there (when I get some some higher amp batt's!).

one thing i did overcome. when i took the coil off the mandrel to burn it in place, crimping it with my tool (in this case, a pair of 6" straight kelly hemostatic forceps) caused a bow in the coil that i later re-threaded onto the mandrel to straighten out and re-burn. this was my first attempt, so re-burning was an exercise. repetition was key.

I find a hemostat is immensely helpful. Have several and sometimes you need more than one, given the "Helping Hand" accessory as an example. You don't want to give a needle nose pliers to somebody as ham-handed as me. My initial burn is done on the mandrel as I tension the coil with a forceps in one hand with just enough tension to hold the coil in place. Any more and you risk burning the legs off. I quench between burns. Subsequent burns as needed I perform on a long stemmed medical tweezers, also cheap, to avoid burns. I've had more than a few. Even though I love a hemostat it exerts too much leverage and I destroyed more than a dozen excellent coils early on trying to crimp with one. Like Trip, I ended up using an ordinary cheap sharp edged grooming eyebrow tweezers to crimp hot which easily goes in and out of the assembly cup during the initial dry burn oxidation. Just the smallest I could find. So I can just camp alongside the coil during firing so I can get on it as quickly as possible and squeeze when I come off the trigger.

maybe the ekowool is more rigid than i'm thinking. maybe a ceramic or steel wick would suffice and/or outshine. i haven't the foggiest. i do know that cotton works a charm. marvelous, i might say.

My main goal has been to find a simple reproducible and enduring build Beck. One that doesn't have to be fussed with every other day. Say put a tank up and have it go a week without being trouble, and be consistent! For this you need something like Ekowool or Nextel and a smaller diameter build unless you drop them stabilized with something…and yes, conceivably, mesh. But that's not a build for the average person. And that's what I'm writing about on this thread. Easy, peasy. Walk first.

i think 4.21 inches is a bit longer than my wrap if i were to venture a guess.

It's a mathematical ratio, extrapolation, to derive it — (Total Resistance)12 / Resistance per Foot = Wire length. However, I calculated it from the other end using known values for certain parameters, such as typical leg lengths, and calculation of the winding length with a shortcut for the hypotenuse. In other words, I verify my target before and after I build it. But I'm a stickler that way. Just don't like surprises. So I'm within a couple of mm. Any correction, improvements or suggestions would certainly be appreciated. No mathematician here. I'm looking for a good online calculator. LOL

So that's the formula above. Anyone want to know the exact length of wired required for a given build? You can find resistance tables at Temco's Kanthal Resistance Wire Product Guide and use the formula above. Give yourself an a couple extra inches so you have legs left to work with.

i'm absolutely positive it oxidized into a higher ohm. though i suspect just. my equipment isn't precision, so i suspect some rounding to get to just 2 digits, etc..

Your VW devices can play havoc with those two digits (through rounding) so you want to be on the right side in your calc and targeting, particularly at high power approaching your limit. A small limit introduced in a build coupled with rounding can send you over the top. You think you're safe, then you're not. Still a little safer on a variable I'll give you that. I've experienced two runaways. One an internal battery short failure. The other a high power build test. Not fun.

running a Vamo V3 with panasonic 18650 2900mah and protank II (now, since i reacted [finally] to the metal tip and had to change out a drip tip to plastic [i suspect nylon... from a vivi nova]... common for me... i can't wear jewelry or piercings no matter the grade or purity... or the metal)

Appreciate the batt info. I'm not geared for high power operation although my Sigelei's have plenty of headroom if I go 18350's. I use the Panasonic CGR18650CH Rechargeable 2250mAh 3.7V 18650. So I think I'd need to up my game when I try your rig for reals.

Now to close this long dull explanation I gotta thank you for your excellent come back. Can't speak for the rest but I appleciate it and all who post here and take the time, care and thought to provide necessary details…so we can try it!

And yes we do folks! Yes we do.

So come on and give it to us by the numbers will ya?

 

[beckdg]

And that's what i was worried about. I knew I wasnt describing my idea clearly. I wasn't talking about filing the coil at all, I was talking about filing grooves into the winding guide (the drill bit, needle, whatever you wrap your coils around) for the slots on the sides of the coil head so that it would drop into the coil head even though the diameter normally would not allow it to fit. That way you don't have to use a smaller diameter guide to place it in the coil head after you've got the coil wrapped, and as an added bonus it would probably help hold it in place a little better (the grooves would keep it from sliding). Does that make more sense?

doh! sorry. missed the all important "guide" in the reference "winding guide" in your prior post. very sorry. roger that. makes sense now.

And Beck thought he could write chapter long posts. I'll show him. :shakes fist: i will, i say. i certainly will.

had to shorten that. yet, wanted to distinguish easily one convo from another.

yes. you are correct. consistent contact on every coil is imperative to a successful coil. hence the test fire before inserting your wick. if it doesn't glow evenly, heat it up, tighten, test fire again, repeat if necessary.

tell me about batteries. i've been eyeing up dna20 mods. thinking i might need to switch to lipo for that. good thing i have a fantastic lipo charger.

i'm just the opposite. i have problems controlling my strength compounded by numbing of the hands and a slightly contorted curvature of the radius bones in both arms due to a break at a young age and a pair of imperfect sets. i can't hold tweezers at just the right tension. it's either not enough or crush whatever's in the tweezers into dust. with the forceps, i can visually get a point of contact and hold it much better. i realize this is likely not the norm, but it works for me.

i quench after each burn also. i think i'm going to pick up one of the ronson torch lighters i used to keep around when i was a smoker. the butane torch i have now has a very wide outer flame that heats up everything around it before the center of the flame can heat the entire coil. i have to heat in 2 stages because of it. otherwise, the legs glow first.

hmmm... so far so good on the 1.8Ω. i suspect the 28Ga coil will be pretty resilient. only thing to consider is the wick i think. threading a new one shouldn't be much trouble. but at this point, i'm just nearing the end of day two. i'll let you know if results are anything less than i expect.

looks like i might have used more kanthal than i earlier suspected. 1.8/5.27*12=4.098" (my Ω)/(per ft Ω) gives a percentage (34.15). times inches in a foot gives length in inches. [(my Ω)/(per ft Ω)*12]

to check that... 5.27/12=.43916666666 = Ω/in.
1.8/.43916666666 = 4.09867172682 inches to 1.8Ω

add a few mm on each leg to hold it in place and you're about dead on.

just didn't recall it was that long. memory doesn't always serve me right. good thing you ask questions when it comes to me. good thing about that disclaimer, "if i were to venture a guess".

i definitely did start with more than 6". just thought i'd trimmed more than that. though 1.7Ω gives me a total length of 3.87096774199 which suggests i may be closer to 2 tenths shorter than your estimate if on the conservative side. full disclosure and all...

tell me about it. i've had my share of fun with Li-Po batteries and 2 KiloWatt motors. the following pack went from a 5000mah 40C 3s pack to a 500mah dead cell in under 5 minutes...

precautions are necessary.

though... i'm really curious about a DNA20 at this point. 5000mah @ 2S and 20 watts sounds like some good candy at this point. Daddy wants to play.

the appreciation is more than mutual. this discussion pushed me to try for the clouds that have since satisfied me. big thank you to all who've contributed.

 

[MacTechVpr]

:LOL:

Well, glad we got that out of the way. Whewww!

With your kind of power requirements you're gonna need the DNA20!



I'm quite comfortable not chocking on the clouds from my Trident at 1.2Ω. And I do take the sleeve off my Immortalizer Beck 'cause I like to see myself in the mirror when I shave. But hey, that's just me.

Funny thing really is I'm vaping a PT now at 1.6Ω and I've increasingly become more comfortable with it. But honestly getting more flavor at higher resistance and less power. At least on this device. We'll see now the Kayfun.

I'll just repeat what bears repeating, I think. We shouldn't have to wade our way through a million posts to find metrics essential to a consistent build of basic vaping apparatus. It's not a rite of passage if some consider this somehow a romantic notion. People are trying to accomplish a very important life change. Just my pet peeve after 5 months of wading

I'm grateful to anyone that tries to change that and consolidate "what we now" as best they can. To those I've found and credit them when I can, I am grateful.

You take care. Contribute what you can. You're all right man. Danke schön.

 

[MacTechVpr]

:LOL:

Well, glad we got that out of the way. Whewww!

With your kind of power requirements you're gonna need the DNA20!



I'm quite comfortable not chocking on the clouds from my Trident at 1.2Ω. And I do take the sleeve off my Immortalizer Beck 'cause I like to see myself in the mirror when I shave. But hey, that's just me.

Funny thing really is I'm vaping a PT now at 1.6Ω and I've increasingly become more comfortable with it. But honestly getting more flavor at higher resistance and less power. At least on this device. We'll see now the Kayfun.

I'll just repeat what bears repeating, I think. We shouldn't have to wade our way through a million posts to find metrics essential to a consistent build of basic vaping apparatus. It's not a rite of passage if some consider this somehow a romantic notion. People are trying to accomplish a very important life change. Just my pet peeve after 5 months of wading.

I'm grateful to anyone that tries to change that and consolidate "what we know" as best they can. To those I've found and credit them when I can, I am grateful.

You take care. Contribute what you can. You're all right man. Danke schön.

 

[TafkanX]

So, uh... I discovered a fatal flaw in my "head slot" for the winding guide idea. While this would be perfect for getting the coil in place, it would also make removing said guide with the coil still wrapped on it pretty much impossible. Not sure why that did not occur to me previously. Bollocks! Back to the drawing board.

In the meantime I've been using a paperclip folded back on itself which roughly approximates the diameter of the 12 gauge (finally identified it) needle I've been using to wind with in one dimension, but is narrow enough to lower into the slots the other way. This isn't perfect as it will still allow some coil deformation if you're not careful, but this has been the best solution for me when rebuilding the Kanger heads with this diameter (it fits perfectly into the slots of a Smok Aro head).

 

[MacTechVpr]

... I discovered a fatal flaw in my "head slot" for the winding guide idea...

I'm not so sure. I have seen something like what you describe…in reverse…pin supports or separators for circuit boards, typically plastic or alloy. The screw goes into the pin; so it can be withdrawn, and the wick would easily slide on/off the end. The screw component would be a smaller i.d. so more likely to fit inside the slot. Just to find one of the appropriate o.d./screw i.d. and just long enough to fit inside the cup. That's the ticket. A few of those in your kit and you could easily upsize to your desired media (within reason). I'll keep an eye out.

Good luck!

 

[TafkanX]

Hmmm... Yes, I think I can picture what you are describing and I think it would fit the bill perfectly if I could find it in the right diameter and length. Brilliant. And the search begins...

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hmmm... Yes, I think I can picture what you are describing and I think it would fit the bill perfectly if I could find it in the right diameter and length. Brilliant. And the search begins...

An example...

http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...uit-Board-Standoffs?navid=12102171+4288218235

Good luck!

 

[Jellyfish]

Well, TafkanX and Mac, I was getting a laugh out of this...but I was laughing at myself. I thought that the original idea of grinding slots in the mandrel/drill bit was great...until I read Tafkanx's 'fatal flaw' realization. My subsequent idea was to get some thin tubing and push a pin through it, and I got as far as locating some K&S small diameter tubing. But then I realized that all you'd end up with would be a coil with some tubing inside of it instead of a wick.

Fortunately, for me at least, I am quite pleased with my 1/16" wraps. However, I can't see anything else working as intended unless you grind the slots wider. But I've been wrong many times before; just ask my wife!

Good luck!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Well, TafkanX and Mac, I was getting a laugh out of this...but I was laughing at myself. I thought that the original idea of grinding slots in the mandrel/drill bit was great...until I read Tafkanx's 'fatal flaw' realization. My subsequent idea was to get some thin tubing and push a pin through it, and I got as far as locating some K&S small diameter tubing. But then I realized that all you'd end up with would be a coil with some tubing inside of it instead of a wick.

Fortunately, for me at least, I am quite pleased with my 1/16" wraps. However, I can't see anything else working as intended unless you grind the slots wider. But I've been wrong many times before; just ask my wife!

Good luck!

Don't feel bad Jelly. The two easily obtained bit sizes of 1/16/ (1.58mm) and 1.75mm are perfectly adequate for nominal 1.5-2mm wick media. And most, except silica will thread easily, including cotton of course, into such coils. About the only reason I would think to go larger would be if you intended to use substantial power, say upwards of 8-9 watts to provide adequate saturation. You do need 2mm for 2mm silica. You're just fine and if your micro's are burning well you're at this point ahead of most. It took me months gleaning bits and pieces of good and bad information from all over the internet and putting it to the test.

For a moment, I almost thought you'd say, "Take me wife, please." But that would have been another episode.

 

[TafkanX]

Honestly the only reason it even occurred to me originally was because the needle I have does not fit in the Kanger head slots (though, again, it fits aro head slots perfectly). I actually had a needle that did fit the Kanger heads (was a 14 or 16 guage needle, not sure which), but it vanished into the ether on me. I am going to acquire a 1/16" drill bit when I get a chance, if for no other reason (other than it fitting properly) than to have a diameter consistent with many of the builds detailed in this and related threads. There is something to be said for consistency.

Still, I like the idea of being able to choose your mandrel diameter independently of the slot size on a given coil head, so I may pursue this matter nevertheless.