Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

Still, I like the idea of being able to choose your mandrel diameter independently of the slot size on a given coil head, so I may pursue this matter nevertheless.

Alternatively, you know, perhaps a sleeve or spacer of a smaller dia. i.d. such that you could fit over a 1/16" or metric 1.6/1.8mm screwdriver or other bit would work. I certainly will keep my eyes open. But I think your original idea has merit. Such a sleeve or bushing with the right i.d./o.d. would be very helpful over a bit that fits the slot to bring down and stabilize a larger coil during assembly.

Good luck!

 

[TafkanX]

I did go ahead and try wrapping around a 16 gauge needle last night, which is a fair bit smaller than a 1/16" drill bit, and had positive results with it. 6 wraps of 32 gauge kanthal yielded me 1.7Ω and a very responsive (i.e. fast-firing) coil. Was more of a pain to wick than usual (I'm spoiled by that 12 gauge coil, extremely easy to work with), but not impossible.

On a separate note, do you guys ever catch yourself tearing up perfectly serviceable coil heads (rebuilt even, not just stock) just so you can try a new build? I finally rebuilt every head I own (and several more for my girlfriend) and ran out of stock heads to play with so I started tearing up my first couple of rebuilds just so I could keep playing.

 

[M_DuBb716]

Just wrapped a very nice Micro - 10 wraps of 30ga, 2.0Ω.. Very uniform, tightly wrapped. Let's see how it vapes!!
... My keyboard needs an OHM-key (Ω!)

 

[MacTechVpr]

On a separate note, do you guys ever catch yourself tearing up perfectly serviceable coil heads (rebuilt even, not just stock) just so you can try a new build? I finally rebuilt every head I own (and several more for my girlfriend) and ran out of stock heads to play with so I started tearing up my first couple of rebuilds just so I could keep playing.

Routinely, if any small defect gets introduced in the middle of the coil or say, an end turn. Usually far less effort to just do a new one than fiddle. Even if I shortcut burns and quenching to finish compression firing on the mod, just saves time I could be spending enjoying the result. But I save 'em if I think they can be rescued for rda duty where the device is not going to bite you in the...with burny grommets or some such.

Now Taf if you enjoy fiddlin' that's a horse of a different color.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Just wrapped a very nice Micro - 10 wraps of 30ga, 2.0Ω.. Very uniform, tightly wrapped. Let's see how it vapes!!
... My keyboard needs an OHM-key (Ω!)

Now M I'm still trying to figure out how you're getting 2Ω on 10? Have I really been that sloppy on that wind? Is it a Protank we're talking' about here? Maybe your legs are skinnier than mine!

 

[M_DuBb716]

Not having good vape days lately.. The 2.0ohm micro I built earlier has been gurgling and leaking for the most part all day, I either set the coil too high in the slot or didn't put the right amount of cotton in it..
.... Haven't gotten a decent vape all day and keep getting juice in my mouth, & leaking into my battery - all this is happening a lot lately.
Gonna have to fiddle some more, ughh.. lol

Mac, maybe I set my coils slightly higher in the slot than you do? Resulting in slightly longer legs, higher resistance? I try to keep them pretty low, but not too low

 

[M_DuBb716]

And yes, I've only been using the Protank 2 lately. I need new glass, cause mine is slightly cracked/chipped but still works. I've only ever rebuilt anything, on the Protank 1 and 2

 

[Jellyfish]

For a moment, I almost thought you'd say, "Take me wife, please." But that would have been another episode.

Ha ha...yea, if I said that I'd have to change my avatar to Henny Youngman!

Just wrapped a very nice Micro - 10 wraps of 30ga, 2.0Ω.. Very uniform, tightly wrapped. Let's see how it vapes!!

Now you're in my territory. I'm lovin' my 10/9 wraps of 30 gauge on a 1/16" drill bit, but on a PT my Ωs are coming out a bit higher.

Now M I'm still trying to figure out how you're getting 2Ω on 10? Have I really been that sloppy on that wind? Is it a Protank we're talking' about here? Maybe your legs are skinnier than mine!

Yea Mac, I don't get that reading on a PT either...at least not for a 10/9 wrap of 30 gauge Kanthal on a 1/16" bit. I'm coming in right around 2.2Ω. However, on my KFL+ I get 2.0Ω, but the legs are much shorter.

I'd also like to add that to me the biggest advantage to these microcoil builds is that they are reproducible. I've been making coils for different rebuildables for a while and for the most part they have been hit or miss. With the help of everyone in this thread, I can now make a coil that will work every time...and that is very, very satisfying. By nature I am not a very adventurous person, and when I find something that works for me I stick with it. But I do recognize that different situations/devices may require some slight modification to my aforementioned credo and I am comfortable with the methods in this thread and will be able to extend what I have learned in these ProTank microcoil builds to more and more gizmos.

Mac has stated that his intent was to present these microcoil builds so that an idiot the average person could make them, and by golly...that's me. So if I can do it, so can any of you guys or gals that stumble across this thread. And Mac...thanks again for sharing and condensing the information that you've collected, and in particular for the target values for your builds...they have been invaluable and provided reassurance as I have learned and progressed. And oh yeah...thanks for being the most encouraging son of a beach on ECF!

Long live the microcoil!

 

[M_DuBb716]

^^ Well said Jelly, great post.. Still trying to figure out why my resistance is different than yours/Macs though, I'm sure it's an issue on my end that I'm probably missing

 

[Jellyfish]

Still trying to figure out why my resistance is different than yours/Macs though, I'm sure it's an issue on my end that I'm probably missing

Hey M, it may just be that our wires are not speced the same. A chart that I looked at a short while ago specs Kanthal A1 30 gauge at 0.7 Ω/inch. I got mine from Lightning Vapes (eBay) and used a multimeter to measure it and I got around 0.8 Ω/inch. So your issue may not really be an issue at all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac has stated...Long live the microcoil!

^^ Well said Jelly, great post.. Still trying to figure out why my resistance is different than yours/Macs though, I'm sure it's an issue on my end that I'm probably missing

Gotta tell ya, both you guys are aces in my book. You came on had your issues, love/hate like me, with the Protank. And you jumped right in to participate and pitch in. That's why I decided to participate after seeing Metalhed's simple but important presentation and roundup of a great many of the pieces needed to solve this puzzle.

I fail to understand why it hasn't been more thoroughly done. Although to give credit, a great deal has been consolidated on this forum and pinned. It's a big site. And the Kanger, clearo's in general, are peculiar beasts, as I think has been exposed on these several threads, including some of Trayce's excellent observations on the nemesis of burny grommets. One needs to build to a higher standard on these pesky things than you would a dripper or even a Kayfun. It's got to be really tight and consistent. But when they work, particularly the Protank, it is an excellent result in its own right. And admittedly for me it was every bit as difficult the first few months until I was able to scour enough information together to appreciate that resistance on these tanks must be targeted very precisely and the builds accordingly, elegant. Then magic!

So here we are finally paying homage to the humble microcoil. Here, here. I raise my glass. LOL

 

[MacTechVpr]

Not having good vape days lately.. The 2.0ohm micro I built earlier has been gurgling and leaking for the most part all day, I either set the coil too high in the slot or didn't put the right amount of cotton in it..
.... Haven't gotten a decent vape all day and keep getting juice in my mouth, & leaking into my battery - all this is happening a lot lately.
Gonna have to fiddle some more, ughh.. lol...Mac, maybe I set my coils slightly higher in the slot than you do? Resulting in slightly longer legs, higher resistance? I try to keep them pretty low, but not too low

Only apparent out-point would seem to be the set, yes. I try to always locate at the very bottom of the slot. If not, I would consider that juice is somehow bypassing any overhang of the wick coming out of the socket and getting underneath it. Only a crack is required. Once you have juice in the cup, you're done. Airflow is compromised, so is vaporization and flooding ensues. Same thing happens when silica top wicks degrade or cotton collapses. They fall to one side or another. You have juice in the cup and no airflow.

I would start there, to make sure the wick thoroughly seats at the bottom of the slot. We're talking flooding here.

Now the difference in resistance is troublesome. But it's difficult to know for sure if it's because of a structural issue with the coil if there is any compromise of the cup by juice as that will skew resistance. The first thing I would suspect though M is a "hanger". That a very slight contact is occurring perhaps at the outlet of termination. Perhaps Trayce has a point with grommet bulging and the consequence is more than just airflow. It is possible that setting the pin too tight can make the exit contact for the positive protrude. It happens at times. I had one two days ago. And the result is a mischievous variation in resistance. Once the bulge presented I could not correct it. And by the way it did result in bad vaporization and flooding. I hadn't had that result in quite some time.

These two thing M, to check out on that build. And, let me tall ya, what pesky creatures these Protanks are.

Good luck!

 

[TafkanX]

if you enjoy fiddlin' that's a horse of a different color.

That's just the thing, I am actually enjoying building them. I was bummed when I finished rebuilding all of mine. I have yet to run one till it "goes bad", I just keep rebuilding them because I'm having fun refining my technique.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Ha ha...yea, if I said that I'd have to change my avatar to Henny Youngman!

Glad you got that!

Now you're in my territory. I'm lovin' my 10/9 wraps of 30 gauge on a 1/16" drill bit, but on a PT my Ωs are coming out a bit higher...Yea Mac, I don't get that reading on a PT either...at least not for a 10/9 wrap of 30 gauge Kanthal on a 1/16" bit. I'm coming in right around 2.2Ω. However, on my KFL+ I get 2.0Ω, but the legs are much shorter.

Thanks for that. These confirmations are very helpful to all of us. I ran the numbers on that build a number of times. I've taken dozens out and measured them. But there's always a risk that one piece of hardware or another is not on the mark and you make the numbers match. Calculation error happens more often than instrument failure. We're human. The feedback and threads like this are important. I suspect M is seeing a variation because of moisture. Resistance goes to the downside. Then again we could both be wrong. So I re-proof with every ? You know, it's only made my assembly process tighter and the pleasure greater.

I'd also like to add that to me the biggest advantage to these microcoil builds is that they are reproducible. I've been making coils for different rebuildables for a while and for the most part they have been hit or miss. With the help of everyone in this thread, I can now make a coil that will work every time...and that is very, very satisfying. By nature I am not a very adventurous person, and when I find something that works for me I stick with it. But I do recognize that different situations/devices may require some slight modification to my aforementioned credo and I am comfortable with the methods in this thread and will be able to extend what I have learned in these ProTank microcoil builds to more and more gizmos.

Mac has stated that his intent was to present these microcoil builds so that an idiot the average person could make them, and by golly...that's me. So if I can do it, so can any of you guys or gals that stumble across this thread. And Mac...thanks again for sharing and condensing the information that you've collected, and in particular for the target values for your builds...they have been invaluable and provided reassurance as I have learned and progressed. And oh yeah...thanks for being the most encouraging son of a beach on ECF!

Long live the microcoil!

Well that was my thought. That it should be, could be, made simpler. Metalhed's thread motivated me to give something back, add in the way of consolidation. I think the more new folks come on and attempt this the faster adoption and adaptation will take place. The word will spread. And that will be great for the whole community as the improvements in our technology as users evolves.

Now finally I've got to retire tonight. I'm done. But I thought to mention I just got my first Kayfun 91% from an excellent vendor here in S. Fla. I'll start with a clone as I have with many a test subject. But I'm really thinking that's pretty much where I'll end up and Protanks will only be part of the grand experiment that they should be. But for now it gives me tremendous pleasure seeing others benefit even if in a slight way from the classic struggle I went through.

Good night! Good luck!

 

[Jellyfish]

Last night I replied to M_DuB in a post when he questioned his microcil build since his resistance value differed slightly from what I had measured for apparently the same build (a 10/9 wrap of Kanthal A1, 30 GA resistance wire around a 1/16" mandrel/drill bit). His resistance value was slightly lower than the value that I got. So at that point I meaured the resistance of two lengths of my wire and got an average resistance of 0.83 Ω/inch. Temco's spec for 30 GA Kanthal A1 is 8.36 Ω/ft, which is pretty much the same as the commonly noted value of 0.7 Ω/inch. Since Temco is pretty much the gospel regarding Kanthal A1, I'd have to assume that my wire is out of spec.

But before I proceed, I will explain my methodology for measuring the resistance of my wire. I cut a piece about a foot long and tightly wound loops around my multimeter probes. I then stretched the wire taut and measured the resistance. Subsequently, I used the probes as pointers and measured the wire length and calculated the resistance as Ω/inch. I did not use alligator clips because I did not think that I'd be able to stretch the wire out fully but in all honesty really I did not feel like looking for them and digging them out. Could my methodology be flawed? Absolutely...but it's all I've got for the time being. Could my meter be screwy? Yea, but the last coil that I built was measured with both my multimeter and my Provari and they agreed.

I repeated this procedure several times today and my average value was once again 0.83 Ω/inch. At this point I am assuming that this value will remain unchanged for the remainder of the spool.

Now, the point of all this is to say that I think that coil builds with 'out of spec' wire (if this truly is the case) can be compared IF you know the resistance of the wire that you are using. In a manner similar to the way that a gallon of gasoline is standardized to a given temperature and a cubic foot of propane is primarily standardized to a referenced pressure, I think that we can (if we want to) standardize our coil wraps to the Temco gold standard. So instead of STP (standard temperature and pressure) we can reference SROW (standard resistance of wire)...and pronounce it simply as the sorrow index because it's catchy and because, quite frankly, if you've gotten this far you're as sorrowful as I am.

So how is it applied? Easily...just base it on the Temco standard. In my case the readings that I got averaged 0.83 Ω/inch. So the SROW value for my wire would be calculated as follows:

(0.83 Ω/inch) / (0.7 Ω/inch) = 1.19 (a dimsionless value)

So now let's standardize my coil reading of 2.2 Ω to the SROW index.

2.2 Ω / 1.19 = 1.85 Ω @ SROW

Now, am I really going to use this?...NO! It's too much of a pain in the ...., and to me a good coil is a good coil. I'm just trying to present the case that it is possible to make comparative resistance readings between two brands of resistance wire whether they be speced tightly or loosely.

 

[ckquatt]

I've been doing micro coils in my protanks for about a month now and I love em!! My set up goes a little something like this: 30 gauge kanthal about 10 wraps around peaches and cream cotton. Ends up being around 2.2-2.4 ohms.

Sent from somebodys phone I found using Tapatalk.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Last night I replied to M_DuB in a post when he questioned his microcil build since his resistance value differed slightly from what I had measured for apparently the same build (a 10/9 wrap of Kanthal A1, 30 GA resistance wire around a 1/16" mandrel/drill bit). His resistance value was slightly lower than the value that I got.

In M's case, you need establish a baseline for analysis. So exclude the known issue/s, i.e. flooding, to confirm a solid build. But it is curious and wire spec certainly may contribute.

So at that point I meaured the resistance of two lengths of my wire and got an average resistance of 0.83 Ω/inch. Temco's spec for 30 GA Kanthal A1 is 8.36 Ω/ft, which is pretty much the same as the commonly noted value of 0.7 Ω/inch. Since Temco is pretty much the gospel regarding Kanthal A1, I'd have to assume that my wire is out of spec.

But before I proceed, I will explain my methodology for measuring the resistance of my wire. I cut a piece about a foot long and tightly wound loops around my multimeter probes. I then stretched the wire taut and measured the resistance. Subsequently, I used the probes as pointers and measured the wire length and calculated the resistance as Ω/inch. I did not use alligator clips because I did not think that I'd be able to stretch the wire out fully but in all honesty really I did not feel like looking for them and digging them out. Could my methodology be flawed? Absolutely...but it's all I've got for the time being. Could my meter be screwy? Yea, but the last coil that I built was measured with both my multimeter and my Provari and they agreed.

I repeated this procedure several times today and my average value was once again 0.83 Ω/inch. At this point I am assuming that this value will remain unchanged for the remainder of the spool.

Now, the point of all this is to say that I think that coil builds with 'out of spec' wire (if this truly is the case) can be compared IF you know the resistance of the wire that you are using. In a manner similar to the way that a gallon of gasoline is standardized to a given temperature and a cubic foot of propane is primarily standardized to a referenced pressure, I think that we can (if we want to) standardize our coil wraps to the Temco gold standard. So instead of STP (standard temperature and pressure) we can reference SROW (standard resistance of wire)...and pronounce it simply as the sorrow index because it's catchy and because, quite frankly, if you've gotten this far you're as sorrowful as I am.

So how is it applied? Easily...just base it on the Temco standard. In my case the readings that I got averaged 0.83 Ω/inch. So the SROW value for my wire would be calculated as follows:

(0.83 Ω/inch) / (0.7 Ω/inch) = 1.19 (a dimsionless value)

So now let's standardize my coil reading of 2.2 Ω to the SROW index.

2.2 Ω / 1.19 = 1.85 Ω @ SROW

Now, am I really going to use this?...NO! It's too much of a pain in the ...., and to me a good coil is a good coil. I'm just trying to present the case that it is possible to make comparative resistance readings between two brands of resistance wire whether they be speced tightly or loosely.

First, your prorated correlation is great. I was getting numbers all over the park with the supplies coming in dribs-and-drabs from vendors all over. Who knows what the material was really. Too much of a pain. I standardized on Temco, broke down and got a variety of gauges.

I too was trying to measure out wire at first (using your metering method) for the KPT's and just too much trouble. You really need a good length to adjust and set the assembly on a clearo. I was marking them for a while for reference though. Then I hit upon the idea of just creating tables and target the tightest build results, rather than trying to hit a wire mark. One of the first things I did was determine the nominal practical leg length after taking apart and measuring dozens of builds. Then I wrote up the necessary formulas for calculating the remaining linear dimension (pitch) of the solenoid. I will return to that method on the KF's and Ody's though. That said, it's useful to see results as you, M, Trayce and others have posted. I continue mathematical confirmations but I'm glad you got I've been trying to condense a simple process out of all this. Then, it starts to take on the semblance of that baseline I refer to. And in M's case, to induce the necessary caution and inquiry when resistance results fall below what is a probable minimum.

If we reasonably expect that no one's built a 30g on 1/16 at less than about 1.8Ω we then know it's cool to go there. That's all. One side tells us we got a bit sloppy; and, the other that we should be alert. That's a viable practical target.

For those still wrapping on their finger. All's I can say is — keep the paper towels handy and the refill bottle nearby.

Last but not least, thanks for your remarks last night. They were most gracious and appreciated. I would certainly say the same for all you who make the effort to contribute here for the benefit of others. It is that considerate courtesy that has far more meaning than the numbers.

Good luck jelly.

 

[vdaedalus]

I've been building at 1.4 ohm all week, seven wraps, 1/16 drill bit. Now that I've got the amount of cotton right, and have ditched the top wicks, they are vaping absolutely beautifully at 10 watts or so, but are still perfectly usable on eGos when I need to pack light. They're actually better on EVOD batteries or knockoff eGos that regulate at 3.7V instead of the what, 3.3 that Kanger favours?

(of course, 3.7V at 1.4 ohm is right about ten watts, so that's pretty convenient)

Editing to add: I pretty much went through a whole Protank today (long day) without so much as a gurgle, which is a first for me, at least without 'burping' it by unscrewing the base once or twice. It's the little things...

 

[M_DuBb716]

Yes, I definitely need to build a stable Microcoil that will be the same every time, and give me the same amazing results.. I just haven't been having any luck lately, maybe it's stress, not sure lol. But I'm going to try to give myself some time tonight to do a very good re-build, and I'll make sure the coil is set LOW this time.
..... The resistance-difference thing isn't a big issue for me, as long as it vapes good, (which it hasn't been lately!!).. But I'm usually shooting for the 1.8-2.1Ω range.

I usually vape around 6.5watts, but lately I've been going up further just to try it out - 10-11watts worked very nicely with my slightly wider coil (1.7ish mm, the last coil I built)! But my most recent 1.58mm, 2.0Ω 10 wrap that I'm vaping right now, is only giving me mediocre performance at best @ any wattage. Back to the drawing boards I guess..

I need a good vape for thanksgiving tomorrow!!

 

[NC56]

Soo Protank rebuilders... How many ohms (Ω) do you prefer to wrap your microcoil too, and why? Do you prefer 30gauge Kanthal, 28ga, 32ga, or maybe Nichrome? What do you use to wrap around, a 1/16" drill-bit, 5/64"? Do you use cotton, silica, SS mesh, ekowool?? Flavor wick, or just 1 wick through the coil? How much juice do you get through your coil before you have to change the wick out, or change the coil all together?
.... Trying to figure out what works best for building a microcoil on the PT!

I really need to go buy a mech-mod and buy an atomizer meant for rebuilding, like the IGO's or something

I like 1.4=1.6 ohms on cotton or silica wick , The cotton works great used 3mm silica also. Just got a Trident and low and behold can't use it came in with crooked threads sucks but that's life

I wrap on a 3mm pin that's about 3"long slides in and out easy fits the wick cutouts nice for installing using cotton.