Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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beckdg

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By the way, I would love if anybody felt the need to make my life easier by building me that coil-winding Jig and mailing it to me!! Hehe

i'd be happy to. though, i feel i have to enlighten you on my original motivation. mac is such an eloquent, enchanting mouth piece. i was hoping to draw a larger crowd to the ease of use of such a tool. eliminate some stress for the masses. for this, i would have taken my time and ate the price of postage... once. was hoping more along the idea that people would make their own rather than asking me for one... or 3.

pm incoming.
 

MacTechVpr

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I am certain B that your motivations and interests are just as earnest and constructive as anyone's on this forum.

I would be pleased and honored to take you up on your offer as I am looking at different easily attainable torsion devices at this time. I wasn't when we exchanged earlier and merely offered a solution for those not inclined to look further than their kitchen drawer. And as I said I have specific ribbon builds that might benefit greatly from one of the solutions you put up.

So please do send. With some expectation that I may be able to return in kind in some way. I'll PM at ya with the particulars.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Say the word.

:)
 

Jellyfish

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I think YMMV applies best to cotton than any other material but the results are hard to compare when you do.

Agreed! I feel like cotton is somewhat of a hit or miss proposition but that the misses can be lessened by trial and error and observation. However, it is not a definitive repeatable process.

I am using Nextel XC-132 presently and exclusively for these tests finding its wicking qualities to be superlative at the 1.5-1.8mm diameters and in practical terms easier to deploy than cotton for its density considerations. I'm working with the two present suppliers to encourage their continued expansion of their inventory ...

Mac, considering that the cotton wick making process is not an absolutely repeatable process, could you post a link to a Nextel supplier and offer a suggestion for a Nextel diameter and coil size that work well together, preferably in the 1.5 - 2 mm range? Are there any special considerations when threading Nextel through the coil?

Thanks!
 

MacTechVpr

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There seems to be a resurgence of interest in the Nextel product as the rush to new wicking systems we saw this year has ebbed over the past few months. Nextel seems to have remained a quiet and subtle contender. I should probably first note the differences of the three alternatives.

First silica, I've come to avoid it because of its propensity to break down catastrophically when higher wattage is applied or over time with sustained high heat levels or chaining. In Protank's, clearo's and other atty's this is problematical as top wicks, for example decompose and fall aside from the coil like fish bones. This fouls the tank with fluid and together this jumbled mess obstructs airflow. I won't get into the details of it's contribution to possible particulates in the juice due to this degradation. I don't have the time today.

Briefly, Ekowool although silica, is in some respects similar to Nextel in its heat bearing capacity, like high quality silica rope. Both Ekowool and Nextel are braided or woven rather than wound. Nextel does though have a significantly higher heat tolerance than Ekowool. So much so that it can be readily and sustainably torched to a rather pristine state. And this is the very most critical factor; both in terms of performance and most importantly flavor. Because despite the advice which is more a truism than reality, not all wick materials clean up in the wash. Nextel comes much, much closer to that expectation.

My cleaning procedure is a wash in ordinary filtered water first heated by microwave to a boil. Then heads and tanks promptly take a plunge allowing heat to dissolve any dried solids they may have accumulated in their drier regions. These do affect flavor considerably and are often missed, like in the receptacle of the head cap. This process is done as soon as the water is cool enough to venture into. Since I recycle so often I seldom see a need for anything much more in tanks. And for Nextel this is all that's required. I use a formidable collection of small candle pyrex I've accumulated through the years (so don't throw away those decorator candles once done). Typical test recycle time is 2.5-3 tank fills. I tend to push tanks for my test purposes but for best flavor I go 4 half tank top-offs as I prefer juice to appear pristine. I rewick coils only as necessary and the primary wick and top wicks of the same diameter may go as many as six cycles. The determining factor is caramelization of thicker juices. This will happen but do not char Nextel like silica. Where in silica they are more distinct solids, these attach as rather permanent stains to the ceramic. Once lodged they do not move. To me a good thing because the minute solids are not floating along in the fluid. What may be removed burns off during torching. As the wick is pressed hard it will stain in time with reuse. While virtually impossible to remove these solids from silica you may see the process in this video by SnG...

Ceramic Wick Cleaning - YouTube

And I must admit I was utterly skeptical when I ordered my first supply of Nextel a month after quitting. And even far longer. I'm afraid I had to pee on the electric fence for myself where silica was concerned before I was willing to observe the obvious. So I can confirm with absolute confidence that you will see the result seen on this clip. Consistently. Except for solids which by virtue of their own heated state stain the ceramic. Due to the heat tolerance of Nextel this is difficult to accomplish but it happens with extended use or extreme wattage. My bad.

BTW guys let me add this is not exactly easy work. I'm vaping tanks all day I'm not necessarily particularly fond of getting at. A row of 6 usually in various stages of composition. Especially if they're failing and you have to see it through. Think about it. For my breaks I go to the drippers. In a lot of ways I'm sorry I invented the job description. It's not exactly the same…when ya hafta vape.

Now given all this why didn't I use this material from the beginning? Well quite honestly I was influenced by suspension of disbelief, the adage that "it must be true" if everybody says it, does it, doesn't object, and that applies to silica…the big gorilla in the room. We all went/go to cotton because none of us can thread the damned stuff. Let's be honest. It's cheap. Nextel is not. In price. But it is — in practice.

I committed to this process of testing, funding virtually all of the work equipment, materials, tools and assistance because I wanted to be as certain as I could reasonably be to suggest this product to others.

Now the good part. Very simply, you can wick this material almost as easily as cotton.

And the good part is the exact diameter of this material at roughly 1.5-1.75 mm (dry-washed-saturated) is precisely the optimal design diameter for Kanger's and a great many atomizers. I don't know who first observed that this material could be used as a wick…but I'd love to kiss the guy/girl because I was about ready to fail when I started. I could not keep up with the tank/wick maintenance requirements!

Let me close quickly here because I posted prematurely. We have two vendors presently. There may be other small scale vendors. If anyone is aware of a source, I'd be grateful if you could provide me the details. But for now they are (in alpha order)…

RBA Supplies LLC
SnG Vapor

I make no personal guarantee as to the suitability or safety of this product. My test has been about its adaptive potentials to vaping. How its benefits might relate to other products we are using. My methodology and statistical approaches are not at a lab level either. I also have no direct relationship with any vendors or producers, present or prior. I've really scrutinized this material in the hopes that it might be, or become, a viable alternative to the vaping community.

There have been a number of important threads on Nextel on ECF. Perhaps questions or discussion can be directed there. I would prefer this not become that here. But wanted to place a significant marker here on the subject.

I wish you all good luck and enjoyment if you should try it.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Mac, considering that the cotton wick making process is not an absolutely repeatable process, could you post a link to a Nextel supplier and offer a suggestion for a Nextel diameter and coil size that work well together, preferably in the 1.5 - 2 mm range? Are there any special considerations when threading Nextel through the coil?...Thanks!

I'm afraid I got a bit rushed by a phone call and published before finishing and editing. I'll have to take a look again. But I thought I'd post the designation for the 1/16" product which is — XC-132. There is considerable confusion on this topic because of the mislabeling of the product by a prior vendor, now defunct. Nextel XC-116 is another size of ceramic braided wick in the same family and very much used in vaping. Both have become increasingly popular in recent months since I started vaping. But the XC-116 is similar as a very loose sheathing material to 2.5mm Ekowool and accordingly difficult to introduce into a coil diameter that would be optimal for a clearomizer head assembly. Truly outstanding perhaps for Ody's, Kayfun's and many others. Lot's of video out there on Nextel builds. Still, it's a very small number of us relatively that have even tried it. I like the product because I've come to believe that like me, a great many of us are not going to make it. Silica is a lot of work and the results of hand winding so unpredictable that a large share of us who try give up in the face of it. It is THAT which motivated me to attempt to document this material.

We all need hope jelly.

Good luck.

:)
 

beckdg

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I am certain B that your motivations and interests are just as earnest and constructive as anyone's on this forum.

I would be pleased and honored to take you up on your offer as I am looking at different easily attainable torsion devices at this time. I wasn't when we exchanged earlier and merely offered a solution for those not inclined to look further than their kitchen drawer. And as I said I have specific ribbon builds that might benefit greatly from one of the solutions you put up.

So please do send. With some expectation that I may be able to return in kind in some way. I'll PM at ya with the particulars.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Say the word.

:)

i need your preferred diameter with an acceptable tolerance. and of course an address. PM me with those and i'll let you know when the package is on it's way.
 

M_DuBb716

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I've been interested in trying other mediums for wicks as well. All I've ever tried is cotton and silica. Definitely gonna grab some nextel and hemp fiber very soon.
:)
As for the 1.7-1.8ohm micro I built last night (1.75mm, 9/8 wraps of 30g), it's vaping good and going through juice quick. Lots of vapor, but the flavor could still be better. My juice might be the problem, or I might have permanent "Vaper's Tongue"; I'm not too sure.. But I might have been better off with slightly less cotton in there.

On this coil, I noticed that I hear most of the crackling/popping sound during the 1st second or 2, when I vape. And than if I vape it past the first second or 2, the crackling/popping stops and turns into just a straight frying sound (kind of like if the wick was dry), but I'm still getting vapor after the crackling sound stops.. But because of this, when I take a drag, I'll do a few 2-second vapes in a row and than inhale - so that the popping sound doesn't go away.
.... It sounds like my coil is only wicking properly for the first 2 seconds or so when I vape on it.. Doing a few consecutive 2-seconds vapes seems to help give my better flavor/vapor - but if I put slightly less wick in there, it would hopefully wick better right??

I know by now, that the crackling & popping sound is what I'm going after, not that flat-frying sound!
 

M_DuBb716

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^^^ Here's the coil I'm talking about in my last post. Before & after priming it with a few drops of juice.. I think it could've been better with slightly less cotton - and that I would hear more popping & crackling when I vape it, if I did.
SANY0716.jpg SANY0717.jpg
.. what do you guys think?
:vapor:
 

MacTechVpr

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^^^ Here's the coil I'm talking about in my last post. Before & after priming it with a few drops of juice.. I think it could've been better with slightly less cotton - and that I would hear more popping & crackling when I vape it, if I did.
View attachment 281145 View attachment 281146
.. what do you guys think?
:vapor:

Actually looks superb. And I'm certain some minor adjustments of density will have you vaping in paradise. At 8/9 turns you are in the zone. I've never found nirvana above 10 winds. For reasons trayce and others have noted, hotspots ensue, even with extremely meticulous care. My theory is that above 10 winds the probability of incidental pos contact to the assembly is acute. This lends to unpredictable performance and variable resistance results when you build and during use. The most minute of variations in leg placement and your build is gone. Apart from the fact that power requirements at lower gauges reduce the utility of the build in the first place. So your time in the sweet zone is limited from the start.

I decided to take some time out of my build and maintenance schedule yesterday to loosely retrace some of your footsteps M. So I did a build of 29 AWG on 5/64 (in the V) dropping the coil down to the slot with the next proximate bit 3/43" (1.78mm). It was a light forceps torsion wind but with just sufficient tension to form wire and not likely more than might be applied by hand wind. The wick is 1.5mm stuffed Ekowool (Kidney Puncher). Here are some pics…

IMG_0526a.jpgIMG_0533a.jpgIMG_0537a.jpgIMG_0542a.jpg

I got an initial resistance read of 3.24Ω which was notably more than I expected. Subsequent reads after examination and adjustment yielded between 2.74Ω and the preceding, almost every time the build was tested. I partially completed the assembly to firing w/o a top cap to see its performance and it proved unremarkable and week. I could visibly see no point of direct contact whatsoever. But coil warmup times from 5 secs. upwards to cutoff clearly indicate a short despite the outward appearance of a symmetrical build.

That's why I in a subtle diplomatic fashion called bull.... on these builds because I don't believe they're consistently reproducible or sustainable. Oh, I have no doubt some of you are accomplishing them as I have. Certainly Trippers did. But the results are short lived and really not practical fellas and fillies. Nor have I found them to produce a consistent flavor output at any wattage.

All credit to you beck and vdaedalus for your outstanding precision. You both are obviously ahead of the herd.

But that's my opinion. As the saying goes, YMMV. Hopefully there are answers for the rest of us.

Good luck!

:)
 

vdaedalus

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I have much worse luck with 5/64" than 1/16" winds, and have given up on them. The difference in diameter makes a pretty big difference in the tight space, and the angle of exit on the legs at each end gets ridiculously crucial on the 5/64s.

As for short-lived results, eye of the beholder I guess. I've been using some of my early 12-wrap 1/16 28AWGs for about a week now, several refills, several rewicks, a few dry burns; anything after this is gravy for me, to be honest, especially since I've got four spares ready to go when these do give up the ghost. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was a month or two before I had to swap them out, these are stout little buggers. I'll see if I can snap a pic of a well-used one when I'm rewicking at some point.
 
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MacTechVpr

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I have much worse luck with 5/64" than 1/16" winds, and have given up on them. The difference in diameter makes a pretty big difference in the tight space, and the angle of exit on the legs at each end gets ridiculously crucial on the 5/64s.

As for short-lived results, eye of the beholder I guess. I've been using some of my early 12-wrap 1/16 28AWGs for about a week now, several refills, several rewicks, a few dry burns; anything after this is gravy for me, to be honest, especially since I've got four spares ready to go when these do give up the ghost. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was a month or two before I had to swap them out, these are stout little buggers. I'll see if I can snap a pic of a well-used one when I'm rewicking at some point.

12/28g is a great wind. It was the larger power figures I went for at the beginning. I did my first micro about a week before Trip gave up the rolling paper stainless wick and ceramic to do his first m.c. video. About half I had problems with though. Mind you v, lot of tank refills, device transfers, removal and maintenance. The 510's definitely saw a workout. So if anything was gonna go wrong, it probably would. So I began to think in terms of what would the typical user enjoy? And is there a reliable baseline? To gauge all these issues of flavor and output. I concluded there had to be an optimal performance range/s for the Kangers. The biggest bang for the buck (effort, simplicity). I guess about the time I ran into Metalhed's thread.

But also there was a fundamental flaw in my builds at the beginning v. I was using a smaller driver to force the coil into position. I realized this later when I better grappled with uniformly tensioning the legs as I reset the coil. In other words, I was threading media in the v-slot, then dropping the final coil. Usually with a needle or similar in the wick, by force. Rather than trying to retention the legs, usually I had already snipped the excess wire, I merely pushed the coil down. So no way to know how or where legs ended up. Or regard for the symmetry that microcoils require to be effective.

So I do agree with Trippers on the myth he dispelled — that Protanks can't handle power.

Also with the idea that for all of us to get better results the same solid builds make life better for the vaping.

I'm conflicted. I really don't like a two stage process…but I prefer larger wicks in the PT. So for me, for now, 1.8mm will have to do. But I am still looking at stuffed wicks — Nextel both the ceramic and silica as well as Ekowool, as in this instance and perhaps necessarily larger builds and more output. I'm glad you have that level of control. And that your results are giving you the output you desire. I'm afraid I don't have those particular motor skills most days. I found it elusive on the KPT despite much attention to detail. I'm out beyond 12W on the mech's and enjoy the vape with a lot less struggle…and all the mech's run on 16.5A AW's.

Like I said, I have a love/hate relationship with the Protank.

Congratz and good luck.

:)
 

MrOcelot

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I have been wrapping mine on a 1/16 drill bit. I use 4 strands of cotton yarn (peaches) inside the coil and cotton ball on top. This has given me the most flavor and best wicking with no leaks yet. I was giving up on the protank after several builds. All were okay but this has been the missing link for me just wanted to share. I have been doing a 11/10 wrap micro using 30 gauge right about 2.1. Across all the juices I have has so far with this set up no leaking and great vape. I will sometimes pull one strand out of the inside of the coil depending. Thanks for this help from here! This thread is the reason I joined well that and the provari. :)
 

vdaedalus

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I'm afraid I don't have those particular motor skills most days.

Haha, neither do I. Shaky in the morning, shaky at night, I have to sit down and wind 2-4 of them when I know I'm steady. And even then, after those, I'm done for the day.

I also hear you about moving on, I'm getting into rebuildables, and, oddly, discovering carto tanks this week (who knew? well, lots of people, but I wasn't among them). But at the same time, I'm still going to try to at least keep a warehouse of four micro PT coils on hand, and when I have four used-up ones, recoil, because I'm finding them to be really solid workhorses. And for right now, an EVOD with a 1.5ohm micro in it is a really solid way to bring a slightly smaller amount of juice to the office so I can decide whether to put it into one of my larger capacity devices.
 

MacTechVpr

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V I'll confess that I have a string of AGR's I can't give up devoted exclusively to Tribeca. Something about carto's brings out the best of the cool notes, some say is licorice, in a way that truly blesses the tobacco. I haven't seen that thus far in any other device. Who would've thought that. I don't even like licorice.

I have a number of Phillipino friends one of which is a high-end mod dealer. We were exchanging notes recently and he introduced me to the pleasures of cloud vaping. I'm not a convert but in serious deep since I started putting micro's into the Trident's. Two Helios await nearby. I've been ironically building higher for the PT for myself hoping to morph out some of those coils to drippers. But radical twisted wire interests me far more.

I've just been concentrating, in threads and pm's, on getting others past the horrible humps I went through and this self-funded research study has kept me focused now six months. I'm pleased a few vendors I've had the good fortune to share with may glean some info that helps their customers. Also that more people are benefiting from the few threads I have had the time and pleasure to add to. I'm sure all who contribute have added valuable data and important context to the conversation. I hope it continues.

Take care. And really a shame about your motor skills. It's a terrible thing to be spastic. <shaking head>

Goodnight all.

:)
 

M_DuBb716

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Hey guys (Mac, vdae).. I think my next purchase is going to be a rebuildable and/or carto-tank as well - I have never even vaped either of them!! I think I'm going to purchase a rebuildable first, but that also means that I'll need to get a mechanical mod. I doubt my eVic will cut it for an RBA/RDA/etc.. But I think I have enough experience now (after rebuilding PT's for a few months), to explore further
...... Maybe my 1st rebuildable and mechanical would be a good early Christmas present to myself!! I'm thinking maybe the Igo-W?? You can do both dual-coils and single coils on the Igo-W correct? and is this a good rebuildable for somebody's first? And does anybody have any suggestions on a decent (and decently priced) mechanical mod for rebuilding? I'd like to get into the low sub-ohm area eventually, to try it out!!
:D And definitely want to grab a carto-tank very soon, as well! I've never even vaped on a carto-tank, and have heard nothing but good things

As for the 1.8ohm (9/8 wrap 30g, 1.75mm) micro I built last Saturday night, it's still going pretty strong 3 nights later. I've re-wicked it twice, still giving me a lot of vapor and good flavor. I guess that night was a success after all. Cheers! :)
 

MacTechVpr

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Hey guys (Mac, vdae).. I think my next purchase is going to be a rebuildable and/or carto-tank as well...

Hey M, welcome back. I started with the IGO-W early on with the first Bolt eVic that I got. It was the plaything in the background of the Kanger tests. But I didn't have the experience or understanding of airflow to really take advantage of it or build the proper coils. And I only acquired stock W's with the small factory holes so I never saw the performance this incredible dripper's capable of. The most simple coils will work on a drip though and give you a great vape with cotton which I wasn't doing then. You are way ahead of the game with your winding skills. But you need to appreciate the relationship to O2 to get the best out of drippers.

I've mentioned The Forge, a very inexpensive Nimbus-like variant with an expanded rotating cap and incredible airflow control for an avg approx <$15 real stainless dripper. This will give you the experience and options to identify your airflow preferences with excellent control of both air inlet and localization. I'd like to send you to my friend Andy De Luca at Venerable Vaping as his buys have been of really outstanding consistent quality but he's out of stock at the moment. However, he does have the the new IGO-W4 at that price. The best build quality I've found on the Forge/Pheonix/Chinex/V6 though is at hoosiervapes with brass 510 post for example and tighter finish.

When you have cotton in this with a smart coil and the airflow right good batt at 4.1, you will blow clouds or incredible vapor. It is more of a choice between the two though with a small dripper. There's an exception but a slightly tricker build to get. Ask again.

To put this back on point. Save your coils boys and girls. They're good for the drippers.

Good luck!
 

M_DuBb716

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Great suggestions Mac, thank you!! That "Forge" is a high possibility. I've read a bit on drippers and such and I know that airflow is a huge factor with those builds; I've heard of people drilling out their air holes for better air flow on the IGO's and such.
.... I guess I'll have to figure out the best relationship between airflow and the different coils that I will build on the drippers - and all of this has a lot to do with personal preference, I might not consider myself a "cloud-chaser" like many of those with rebuildables/mechs (yet, lol), but maximum flavor and vapor-thickness is what I am mainly after!!

But thanks for the great suggestions Mac, I will take those into very high account for my 1st options. And I need to find a good mech because I will venture into sub-ohm builds as well
:D
 

vdaedalus

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I've never even vaped on a carto-tank, and have heard nothing but good things

Definitely give them a shot. You can get a cheap tank plus a pack of cartos for under $15. If anything else, my first tank has given me more or less the ultimate backup. I've vaped about 15ml of juice on my first carto and it's not letting up yet. I've already ordered a couple of IBTanked tanks. They're pretty ideal if you spend workdays away from home and need something that just works. Plus, if I get the itch, there are plenty of rebuildable sleeves that fit inside carto tanks. :D

Unlike you, though, I've heard plenty of less-than-good things about cartos, which is why I stayed away from them initially. Priming them is a pain (nah), refilling them is fiddly (not if you have a needle tip bottle or syringe, let alone a 'fill tool,' which I'm not going to bother with), whatever. Compared to what we've been doing with these PT heads, it's a breath of fresh air. And it's a new set of things to play with. Definitely feel free to PM me if you're curious, I don't want to derail the thread any more than we have lately.

I've also got an IGO W on the way, because between the Protanks, minis, EVODs and now carto tanks, I need a way to try out a flavour without investing a millilitre or two. And compared to rebuilding the PT heads, any 22mm rebuildable deck feels like a sixty-acre estate. I think the coil-winding skills I've gained by starting at the 'small' end of things will serve me pretty well there.

Plus a Kayfun 3.1, a Russian, a Nemesis, and an ePipeMod (which already reached me, but I had to return it for warranty repair, DOA) coming. Here's to the journey.

Still, I'm going to keep winding PT coils. I'm preparing a care package for an out-of-town friend who's got nothing but EVODs with stock coils, and am looking forward to blowing her mind with the micro+cotton experience. And I brought a handful of mini-PTs and EVODs to the office with my 1/16" 28AWG twelve-wraps inside, and they kept up pretty well with the carto tank.
 
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M_DuBb716

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Thanks for your input V! I'm definitely thinking of grabbing the IGO-W for myself, would this be better for me than say the IGO-L or other drippers?? I think I'll grab the IBTanked also - I've always wanted to try a carto-tank and this one seems the best.. It would be great to have something convenient and easy for on the go, yet still getting the vape-performance I want.

But back on topic!! Still haven't tried a 28g build.. I think I'm going to try my hand at a dual-micro build later on tonight!! Still exploring and learning everyday
:)
 

MacTechVpr

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I think I'll grab the IBTanked also - I've always wanted to try a ) and this one seems the best.. It would be great to have something convenient and easy for on the go, yet still getting the vape-performance I want. :)

Definitely give them a shot. You can get a cheap tank plus a pack of cartos for under $15. If anything else, my first tank has given me more or less the ultimate backup. I've vaped about 15ml of juice on my first carto and it's not letting up yet. I've already ordered a couple of IBTanked tanks. They're pretty ideal if you spend workdays away from home and need something that just works. Plus, if I get the itch, there are plenty of rebuildable sleeves that fit inside carto tanks. :D

Unlike you, though, I've heard plenty of less-than-good things about cartos, which is why I stayed away from them initially. Priming them is a pain (nah), refilling them is fiddly (not if you have a needle tip bottle or syringe, let alone a 'fill tool,' which I'm not going to bother with), whatever. Compared to what we've been doing with these PT heads, it's a breath of fresh air. And it's a new set of things to play with. Definitely feel free to PM me if you're curious, I don't want to derail the thread any more than we have lately.

I've you both want to enjoy cart's and not going with a locking system like the AGR's, you might want to take a look at this great tube…




Enjoy! And, good luck.

:)
 
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