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Short answer: If a single hits all the flavor notes you enjoy in your juice, stick with it.
G, it all comes down to temperature and the juices that you enjoy.
I run single 28/29 AWG winds in Tridents, mostly tobacco which likes heat. I get lots of it pouring the current through a well wicked single and good dense vapor. The Trident is thick walled and runs too cool with the delicate twisted coils I use in the Helios. The latter coils give me more versatility and can use them with a high-powered variable. But they generally run cooler and more efficiently than high gauge singles. If you build them in thick wire G, they will definitely consume ravenously, agreed.
Think of wire more for it's texture. And combinations of thin wire can often produce better coverage and vaporization than thick. Also some juices like sweeter flavors benefit from a cooler airy warmness than the high powered heat of singles. They just run a bit denser and more efficiently tensioned.
It's an exploration you'll enjoy finding your temperature pleasure zones with your juices. Think of thin wire then as layers of clothing you can apply to adapt to certain temperature. You first need to find what level works best for your flavor. Then layer on thick, thin, in-between or textured as that temperature, flavor and activity (your vaping style for it) satisfy you.
I personally G love flavor but enjoy clouds too. I'm just glad I haven't abandoned flavor having gotten too accustomed to high heat levels. Probably because I am still committed to testing consumer clearomizers which has kept me in the tanks and a cooler vape for contrast. I enjoy both. And I think that's the best of both worlds. And it's a lot fuller than a single coil apparatus, if you enjoy it.
Good luck.
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Short answer: If a single hits all the flavor notes you enjoy in your juice, stick with it.
G, it all comes down to temperature and the juices that you enjoy.
I run single 28/29 AWG winds in Tridents, mostly tobacco which likes heat. I get lots of it pouring the current through a well wicked single and good dense vapor. The Trident is thick walled and runs too cool with the delicate twisted coils I use in the Helios. The latter coils give me more versatility and can use them with a high-powered variable. But they generally run cooler and more efficiently than high gauge singles. If you build them in thick wire G, they will definitely consume ravenously, agreed.
Think of wire more for it's texture. And combinations of thin wire can often produce better coverage and vaporization than thick. Also some juices like sweeter flavors benefit from a cooler airy warmness than the high powered heat of singles. They just run a bit denser and more efficiently tensioned.
It's an exploration you'll enjoy finding your temperature pleasure zones with your juices. Think of thin wire then as layers of clothing you can apply to adapt to certain temperature. You first need to find what level works best for your flavor. Then layer on thick, thin, in-between or textured as that temperature, flavor and activity (your vaping style for it) satisfy you.
I personally G love flavor but enjoy clouds too. I'm just glad I haven't abandoned flavor having gotten too accustomed to high heat levels. Probably because I am still committed to testing consumer clearomizers which has kept me in the tanks and a cooler vape for contrast. I enjoy both. And I think that's the best of both worlds. And it's a lot fuller than a single coil apparatus, if you enjoy it.
Good luck.
I've never had an issue with flavor or vapor on a single coil. Top or bottom. I do notice a little muted and cooler vapor with the Aspire BDC on some juices. So I guess if it ain't broke don't break it.
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Hmf, the bulldogge is struggling with the tension coils
Checked the video, wrapping them in similar fashion (Kanthal on spool, 1.4mm screwdriver with one end of Kanthal taped up to it), keeping it nice and tight while wrapping, but I still get the damn "hot wraps" here and there when I try to fire it up/oxidize it, after fitting it in the coil head. Wrapped a handful of coils so far, and they all have this issue.
Can this be caused by too much tension as well, or am I just being sloppy with a wrap here and there, and need to keep even more tension on the Kanthal while wrapping?
I know, there's a learning curve to this as well, but screwing up the first 5 is not something I'm used to
Checked the video, wrapping them in similar fashion (Kanthal on spool, 1.4mm screwdriver with one end of Kanthal taped up to it), keeping it nice and tight while wrapping, but I still get the damn "hot wraps" here and there when I try to fire it up/oxidize it, after fitting it in the coil head. Wrapped a handful of coils so far, and they all have this issue.
Can this be caused by too much tension as well, or am I just being sloppy with a wrap here and there, and need to keep even more tension on the Kanthal while wrapping?
I know, there's a learning curve to this as well, but screwing up the first 5 is not something I'm used to
Hmf, the bulldogge is struggling with the tension coils
Checked the video, wrapping them in similar fashion (Kanthal on spool, 1.4mm screwdriver with one end of Kanthal taped up to it), keeping it nice and tight while wrapping, but I still get the damn "hot wraps" here and there when I try to fire it up/oxidize it, after fitting it in the coil head. Wrapped a handful of coils so far, and they all have this issue.
Can this be caused by too much tension as well, or am I just being sloppy with a wrap here and there, and need to keep even more tension on the Kanthal while wrapping?
I know, there's a learning curve to this as well, but screwing up the first 5 is not something I'm used to
Not too much tension is required just enough to keep it taught and a tad more. Keep the lead from the spool perpendicular to the screwdriver or bit. Any lateral pull could be introduced as skew.
Start on the low tension side. You'll see they don't stick together. Increase the pull slightly; and, they will when you have just enough.
I have muscle control issues. There are days that I can, and days I can't (not enough tension). But to be honest, without having discovered this it would have been hell to accomplish the amount of tank tests that I do. It was a blessing. Just not to worry, you don't have to try too hard. Give it a break and come back to it.
Good luck LB.
Yeah I've put it down for the day.
What I did, was wrapping it about 4 wraps too long, then gently pulled back 2 wraps on each side of the coil, to make sure I only got the best of the wraps. Yet, when I fire it up after fitting it in the coil head, some of the wraps, especially the ones towards the end, seem to go out of shape.
I tried firing it up, then giving it a quick squeeze (as I do with normal microcoils as well), and bam, even glow, from the center and out. So maybe I'm botching the mounting part as well? Just never experienced these issues before, with conventional coils and non-tensioned microcoils...
Botch or not, I still don't understand how a random wrap in the middle of it all will glow red hot though - I checked out all the coils under the magnifying glass in my "third hand thingy" and they seem pretty damn perfect to me.
What I did, was wrapping it about 4 wraps too long, then gently pulled back 2 wraps on each side of the coil, to make sure I only got the best of the wraps. Yet, when I fire it up after fitting it in the coil head, some of the wraps, especially the ones towards the end, seem to go out of shape.
I tried firing it up, then giving it a quick squeeze (as I do with normal microcoils as well), and bam, even glow, from the center and out. So maybe I'm botching the mounting part as well? Just never experienced these issues before, with conventional coils and non-tensioned microcoils...
Botch or not, I still don't understand how a random wrap in the middle of it all will glow red hot though - I checked out all the coils under the magnifying glass in my "third hand thingy" and they seem pretty damn perfect to me.
I'm so much newer to this than all you "wily veterans".
One question. If you wind extra wraps, then unwrap the ends to use just the best wraps in the middle, what's the best way to go about straightening out the leads that were once wrapped around the mandrel? I've done it, and used my fingernails, and also tried running them thru my tweezers, but they still don't come out absolutely perfect, like when the wire first comes off the spool. What's the trick?
Thanks for all this info, btw.
One question. If you wind extra wraps, then unwrap the ends to use just the best wraps in the middle, what's the best way to go about straightening out the leads that were once wrapped around the mandrel? I've done it, and used my fingernails, and also tried running them thru my tweezers, but they still don't come out absolutely perfect, like when the wire first comes off the spool. What's the trick?
Thanks for all this info, btw.
Well so far my experiments have gone well. While I wait for my needles to come, I've tried a few things lying around and found a rather small L shaped metal piece that is working extremely well. No idea of the actual size, but it is considerably smaller than a 5/64 Allen wrench I found at the same time. So far my experiments have run between 1.6Ω to around 2Ω. Mostly 1.8Ω. Flavor is good, vapor is fine, and they vape well all the way up to 11W which is the limit for my PV. I've been trying between 9-11 wraps, and mostly just trying to get a feel for how to produce good results. And trying to get the right amount of cotton.
Updated for a pic of what I am using. That darker one is the 5/64 Allen key, which of course is not round..the smaller one is round and working great. I will need to figure out it's size if I continue to use it. I accidentally made a 1.6Ω coil with it tonight. It is pretty darn good. For now I think I got the amount of cotton just about perfect too.
Updated for a pic of what I am using. That darker one is the 5/64 Allen key, which of course is not round..the smaller one is round and working great. I will need to figure out it's size if I continue to use it. I accidentally made a 1.6Ω coil with it tonight. It is pretty darn good. For now I think I got the amount of cotton just about perfect too.
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I'm guessing results vary depending on gauge and quality of Kanthal, but for me, the extra wraps straighten out pretty much perfect, by simply pulling on that end of the thread with a pair of pliers. Using Kanthal A-1 30 AWG.
As for my own issues with tensioned microcoils, I've found a "solution", or fix at least. It's not full-on tension where all the magic happens when I first fire up the coil.
Instead, I wrap the coil with tension, carefully remove it from the screwdriver, torch it and apply a little bit of compression to it. Then I put it back on the screwdriver and mount it in the coil head.
Results are looking pretty damn perfect to me (might have torched the left one a tad too much, but on the other hand, I've tested it MANY times now, so might just be that), just waiting for my Ekowool to get here, so I can start screwing them up and see if it's worth the while, compared to messing with cotton
Pic: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11765014/Photo 15-04-14 14.04.11.jpg
Attachments
Gentlemen, good morning. The following picture shows a tension coil from a single wind…
However, it's not perfect. You can't see it, but it's not. The minute it's taken off the mandrel it starts to separate. Small stress pressures from contact of the lead on the desk surface for example, some of the tiniest things…will introduce themselves through the leads back into the coil to stress and separate the turns. You can see it...under magnification.
So what the heck is a microcoil? Is it a sub-millimeter wind, a really tight wrap, full contact? What?
It's a coil that exhibits the effect, a perfect micro coil approaches that 100% efficiency of end-to-end uniform power distribution to the wick, as close a fit as nature will allow, when it has been wound to a point of adhesion of the turns;
...and, if it has then been pulsed to form a bond of alumina oxide in that virgin state.
That is when you see the optimal fusing of coil winds.
So you only want to fuse or oxidize the coil ever when it's finally installed.
You can form a microcoil in other ways by adding force to hold them together. But never can they be in as tight a condition as above described. Consequently, such coils will not deliver power as evenly or efficiently as might be possible for that particular wind configuration.
LB those are two really fine examples you made. You're making great progress but don't give up. The best coil you'll ever do will be when you fuse them together in place, once they're set and terminated. And yes, they'll have minute gaps. Some you might even be able to see but the tension will in all likelihood induce the effect with the first firing burn. Compressing gently at that point will accomplish everything you did with the torch but in a more perfecting manner.
This example I've often posted shows such an imperfection between the 5th and 6th turns; but, it's not necessarily something that can't be overcome with pulse and compression…
A note here, it's possible to let off some when you wind with tension. Sometimes it's enough to overcome at burn in. Other times not. It took you a couple of minutes to wind and set the thing. It'll take much more fiddling with it if you keep it. Just rewind it.
LB, from the look of your coils you're real close. And once it happens you'll never go back. Whatever you may choose to wind this will always be in your arsenal.
Now to you hover, it's not about leaving the best in the middle. That's the traditional micro coil approach. When in fact it's critical that the two best be in the ends. If you wind with tension you will already have a pretty much complete coil. You may note from the two above coils that the end turn and lead are pretty much fairly straight. This is the end that fed directly from the coil. It is already a perfected lead and turn. Use this as your positive lead which is the most critical.
You should only have to de-wind the few extra turns that you wound from the starting end of the coil (nearest the shank) to complete your count. I always wind at least an extra four. Why? Because we're human and it's not impossible to damage the positive lead or turn during handling. In which case you have enough to de-wind from either or both sides.
There are two methods I use to de-wind.
The first, my preferred method, is to tweeze the legs off between thumb and index finger…pulling in the direction that the wire is wound. So, if the end is pointing towards you, you tweeze towards you. To tweeze the other side, reverse the mandrel so the other end of the coil now points towards you to tweeze. In this manner, the slight bend that results follows the shape of the wind for that turn and away from the coil (towards you). Don't try to make the legs straight. The purpose here is to keep the ends as tightly wound around the mandrel as possible, to reinforce the turn wanting to remain a turn.
The alternate method if you've wound a great many turns involves using a forceps to pull the turns off…while keeping the thumb or finger firmly on the back of the coil. You must keep some pressure on the coil to keep multiple turns from spinning off. This was a technique very well demonstrated by ECF member vapdivrr in this video starting at about 6:30. He does not support the back of the coil but a blunt needle can have a much rougher surface and so drag on a coil than a screwdriver bit or drill blank. In many ways this is why you don't want to wind on one. You wind tighter and more precisely on a precision surface. So if you don't want to snake off a bunch of coils in a split second support the coil.
Fella's I've taken the time to throw this together because I know the info is a bit spread out in this thread and the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/tips-tricks/463771-protank-cotton-rebuild-way-i-do.html thread. Please reward me and mostly yourselves by not giving up on the approach.
We're always here to help if you do.
Good luck.
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Gentlemen, good morning. The following picture shows a tension coil from a single wind…
I notice you legs go one up and one down on this coil. Is that the best way to build a KFL coil??? I know for a PTII coil the legs need to be both facing down.
You can form a microcoil in other ways by adding force to hold them together. But never can they be in as tight a condition as above described. Consequently, such coils will not deliver power as evenly or efficiently as might be possible for that particular wind configuration.
LB those are two really fine examples you made. You're making great progress but don't give up. The best coil you'll ever do will be when you fuse them together in place, once they're set and terminated. And yes, they'll have minute gaps. Some you might even be able to see but the tension will in all likelihood induce the effect with the first firing burn. Compressing gently at that point will accomplish everything you did with the torch but in a more perfecting manner.
Thanks for the reply
With my "non-electronic" background, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between installing, fusing and compressing vs. fusing, compressing and installing? I mean, if the wires are fused together, what's the difference?
Because when I try the first route, and keeping the coil on the screwdriver from beginning to end, that's where I get either hot wraps, or wraps not willing to light up in the middle of the coil. If I fuse it first, bam, perfect glow.
I tried the first route many times, as mentioned above, but after lighting it up and even compressing it afterwards, it just doesn't seem to glow as evenly, compared to the ones I torch and compress before installing them.
Edit: The ones in the picture, are done by way of bulldogge, aka. torching and compressing prior to installing. Didn't torch the Kanthal before wrapping though, as you suggested against.
Edit 2: Gave it another go. No hot wraps this time, took a lot of compression - but seems like it's actually glowing just like the pre-torched ones now
Only thing that worries me, is the rubbery smell from the insulators, since it took quite a lot of fusing...
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Thanks for the reply
With my "non-electronic" background, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between installing, fusing and compressing vs. fusing, compressing and installing? I mean, if the wires are fused together, what's the difference?
Because when I try the first route, and keeping the coil on the screwdriver from beginning to end, that's where I get either hot wraps, or wraps not willing to light up in the middle of the coil. If I fuse it first, bam, perfect glow.
I tried the first route many times, as mentioned above, but after lighting it up and even compressing it afterwards, it just doesn't seem to glow as evenly, compared to the ones I torch and compress before installing them.
Edit: The ones in the picture, are done by way of bulldogge, aka. torching and compressing prior to installing. Didn't torch the Kanthal before wrapping though, as you suggested against.
Edit 2: Gave it another go. No hot wraps this time, took a lot of compression - but seems like it's actually glowing just like the pre-torched ones now
Only thing that worries me, is the rubbery smell from the insulators, since it took quite a lot of fusing...
Ok LB, thanks for the effort and reply. It does look like you have the idea. Wind, install, fuse. That's the ticket. Butttt….it also seems from your description now that somehow you're not really tensioning the coil very much, if at all. I'm not sure what about your hand hold is not exactly right although it's clearly the problem.
Does the coil stick together when you finish winding? If it doesn't as in the above photo's I posted you're not achieving adhesion. And we need to discuss your hand hold a bit because it's not really hard. You gotta know how to hold the cue to strike the ball. No way around that. No shame in it. And unfortunately I'm not there to show you the half-dozen or so techniques that are possible.
But basically tape off the wire to the screwdriver, start the first turn slowly, make sure it's butted up to the base of the shank on the screwdriver, pull the coil and screwdriver away from each other with just some slight pressure and turn the screwdriver slowly. The wire should be taught but not tight. I hold the spool of wire flat in my left palm and use the edge of the the coil to support the screwdriver while supporting the tip of the screwdriver with my left index finger (knuckle) to stabilize it as in the following…
By just angling the shank of the screwdriver about one degree away from the spool, using the edge of the coiled wire spool as a fulcrum you can add a lot of tension yet still maintain control. This technique is by far the simplest and easiest. But you do need a good grip in your right hand (or left as the case may be) to maintain rotation. You can't let off once you start until you complete your wind. It does require a bit of concentration for the minute or less it takes to complete a dozen or more turns.
Good you're tryin' and it seems making progress by comparison.
Good luck LB. Good vapes comin' your way.
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The leg pointing to the right is the start of the wind. The bit of wire I affix with tape to the screwdriver. That's the raw finished coil having been removed from the driver (tape removed). And that image I only published for demonstration.
Once you remove the tape, you tweeze that one lead down in the direction of rotation and continue tweezing off winds until you get to your final count. The other end is perfect. You use that very well tensioned turn…alone. That's going to be your positive. You protect that sucker G. If you start to de-wind with a forceps…you do so from the loose end…the end that was taped and a few turns will come off with the overall coil becoming tighter. Once you get within one or two turns of your target, you tweeze off the remainder carefully a half-turn at a time.
You will end up with a pretty damned well perfect coil. After the first pulse or two, it will be.
Good luck G.
I wind like pretty much like that, minus resting the screwdriver on the edge of the spool, looks tensioned to me. However, as I can't rotate my hand or fingers endlessly, I have to loosen the grip a little for every turn, just to move my fingers. I don't if that's where I slip up (as that could potentially lose the tension), but the coil looks like the wraps are all sticking together when I'm done. But obviously they aren't, as I need to do a lot of compression while fusing them together afterwards.
I'll give your technique a go and see if that's better
I'll give your technique a go and see if that's better
I wind like pretty much like that, minus resting the screwdriver on the edge of the spool, looks tensioned to me. However, as I can't rotate my hand or fingers endlessly, I have to loosen the grip a little for every turn, just to move my fingers. I don't if that's where I slip up (as that could potentially lose the tension), but the coil looks like the wraps are all sticking together when I'm done. But obviously they aren't, as I need to do a lot of compression while fusing them together afterwards.
I'll give your technique a go and see if that's better
It sounds like if you're just a bit shy of the mark at this point (for adhesion), but close. Once it happens you'll know. Those coils will stick together like glue (as in the photo). LB, I did my first one by accident on a screwdriver just trying to build nice tight evenly spaced coil. But in the ensuing days, I spent a bit of time myself trying to figure out why it happened…and how to get it to happen again!
Good luck. I'm out to a rebuild meet-up.
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I wind like pretty much like that, minus resting the screwdriver on the edge of the spool, looks tensioned to me. However, as I can't rotate my hand or fingers endlessly, I have to loosen the grip a little for every turn, just to move my fingers. I don't if that's where I slip up (as that could potentially lose the tension), but the coil looks like the wraps are all sticking together when I'm done. But obviously they aren't, as I need to do a lot of compression while fusing them together afterwards.
I'll give your technique a go and see if that's better
Support the end of the screwdriver with the inside of your left index finger as in the photo. Or, if you extend your hand away, with the tip of your left index finger. Use that support to maintain the tension on the shaft as you rotate the fingers of your right.
We each of us have to learn the motion mechanics to make this fly. Some things work for some of us. We each have to train our hands to maintain the tension and rotation in a way that's comfortable.
Good luck.
Hmm, just tried (only once though) your method, and result seemed just as good/bad as my previous technique. But I can get them to fuse properly, by compressing after installing and heating the coil. If that's the best I can do, I might as well keep torching before installing, and save my precious insulators a bit
Oh well, I might give it a few more attempts later, but I've already made like 15-20 coils today, not a single one wants to fuse and do the "centerglow" without some sort of compression at some point in the process.
Oh well, I might give it a few more attempts later, but I've already made like 15-20 coils today, not a single one wants to fuse and do the "centerglow" without some sort of compression at some point in the process.
I didnt take any offense the comments, i posted wrong information and the experience of others on this site caught it. No harm done. Havent been on this thread in a while or I would have corrected myself a long time ago.Hey Porkchop, just wanted to answer to let you know I wasn't trying to single you out. First congratulations. Great move for making the effort to quit and I wish you much luck and success.
Next, your airflow notion is a good one. It works and thanks for passing it along. Maz I think posted above on the Aero airflow base and it's excellent to throw on a tank you haven't gotten to. Me if, I'm inclined, I keep the Dremel handy. As I said in my above post really like the extra wick possible in 5/64" but it's extremely difficult for an experienced builder and particularly newcomers to locate, terminate without deforming the coil in some way. The ways this distorts the build are subtle and often difficult to notice or analyze and they reduce the efficiency of the build. I know a little. I've now built over 400 coils for Kangers. Little note on that you've never seen it all.
What that means is you don't get as good a vape as the PT can actually deliver. That's why I posted. There are techniques on this thread and others mentioned here that can get you there. And we hope that you're trying them will get you there faster. That's all. For the most part it just works. The basics. When you got that and have something to compare it to, it means something. To all of us.
But "I use 9 winds of twisted 30" don't let me build what you got, or taste it. And there's a lot of that goin' around. Not you. Just sayin'.
Please stick around! Post your results if you're successful. It's all welcome, all good.
Didn't mean to come down on ya. And sorry if it sounded like I did.
Good luck at ya porkchop.
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