Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[brookj1986]

Hmm, just tried (only once though) your method, and result seemed just as good/bad as my previous technique. But I can get them to fuse properly, by compressing after installing and heating the coil. If that's the best I can do, I might as well keep torching before installing, and save my precious insulators a bit

Oh well, I might give it a few more attempts later, but I've already made like 15-20 coils today, not a single one wants to fuse and do the "centerglow" without some sort of compression at some point in the process.

I finally got a good one... Except it wasn't on the pt2. It was on an rda. I actually applied very little additional resistance at termination, though I'm sure the screw pinching it down added a bit. A couple pulses and it did the trick!

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[LazyBulldogge]

Had a bit of success myself, using my power drill and 1.5mm drill bit to wrap the coil. Still needed a bit of squeezing after mounting it though, so no way near perfect yet, but the power drill should at least be able to give me constant tension while wrapping the coil.

Just annoys the crap out of me, 'cause the wraps look like they're sticking together, even when looking under a magnifying glass, yet they won't give me the nice centerglow, until I compress the coil after installing and heating it, so I'm still doing something wrong, I guess.

But at least I'm not messing up my hands now, so hooray for power drill

 

[MacTechVpr]

Congraz gentlemen. Gotta hit the sack. More coil adventures tomorrow.

Good luck.

 

[LazyBulldogge]

I'm beginning to wonder, if the issues I have aren't caused by not tensioning properly (again, I've inspected several coils under a magnifying glass, and they look damn perfect to me), but by stretching the legs too much when I install it?
'Cause when I fire it up and do the squeezing, it seems like it doesn't fuse together, until I get the pliers all the way to the bottom of the coil - as if the bottom part of the coil is where no magic is happening.
So that's definitely something I'll be looking into a bit later, just always thought that the legs of a coil needed to be as stretched and tight as possible...

 

[MacTechVpr]

I'm beginning to wonder, if the issues I have aren't caused by not tensioning properly (again, I've inspected several coils under a magnifying glass, and they look damn perfect to me), but by stretching the legs too much when I install it?
'Cause when I fire it up and do the squeezing, it seems like it doesn't fuse together, until I get the pliers all the way to the bottom of the coil - as if the bottom part of the coil is where no magic is happening.
So that's definitely something I'll be looking into a bit later, just always thought that the legs of a coil needed to be as stretched and tight as possible...

Legs need to be taught but again not tight. If too tight when you pull the mandrel out the coil can skew in one direction or another depending upon which leg was tighter! So yes the answer can be in the legs if the tension is not balanced. So moderate finger tension LB. I was lightly tensioning with a forceps but had to stop even that as the new silicone grommets have proven very slippery. Too tight a tension and leads can slip underneath the grommet from the very first time you put your base on a carto-meter or mod. So balance is key always looking at the orientation of the coil as you make those small adjustments.

Another downside to uneven tension is that you can introduce horizontal skew if one leg is too tight and one end of the other of the coil will drop making wicking difficult or impossible. All these types of changes to the geometry of the coil even when slight can keep it from being a microcoil and temporarily at least keep the coil from fusing properly. However, if you correct the pressure the coil still wants to be a coil and the shape can reform (as long as not too much pressure was applied to deform it). Something as powerful as a needle nose has enough force to do that. And all that a micro needs for final compression is a very light needle nose tweezer. That's about all the pressure that's required.

Sometimes grasping the coil with a tweezer and slightly adjusting its orientation can fix minor skew. Otherwise you'll have to put the bit back in and try to retention the legs and coils in place. Again, baby steps.

So try not to remove the bit if at all possible until you're satisfied it's likely to go full effect…or reject the wind. Even if you don't have a magnifier stand a 3" or similar magnifying glass should help examining the coil and orientation of the legs before you pull the bit. The legs should be generally opposite each other heading away from the point they exited the coil in the last turn. That is key as keeping the wind as full and taught as possible on the end turns seems to avert most problems.

Also a slight adjustment of skew can be accomplished by grasping both the pin and grommet with thumb and index and rotating both just a little in one direction than the other. Try to return both together to the starting position or close. This often causes the coil to resume or snap back in to the original shape it was wound after the uneven tension that skewed it is relieved. That's to say that merely rebalancing the tension may leave the coil hung up grasping the bit misaligned. Before this step however minor tweezing with a thin flat-head or the needle nose tweezers may encourage it to reform going back to its original alignment before tensioning.

It looks like you're on your way LB. Hope these tips may help.

Good luck.

 

[LazyBulldogge]

Yeah I've been pulling really hard on the legs, so definitely gonna try being a bit more gentle when I build the next one later. I do keep the drill bit/screwdriver in place while doing it though, but still, as per my previous observations, it doesn't seem like it wants to fuse, until I've let the tweezers run all the way to the insulator and giving it a squeeze there, so I hope that's where I fail, as I'm really getting a bit sick of wasting perfectly good coils this way
If that doesn't help, I think I'm about ready to just fall back to my pre-torched coils - they do work after all, would just be nice to learn this way of making them as well, even if I'm still a bit nervous about the scorching of my insulator grommets, that rubber smell is anything but pleasant, even at low voltages.

Thanks for the advice, as always

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yeah I've been pulling really hard on the legs, so definitely gonna try being a bit more gentle when I build the next one later. I do keep the drill bit/screwdriver in place while doing it though, but still, as per my previous observations, it doesn't seem like it wants to fuse, until I've let the tweezers run all the way to the insulator and giving it a squeeze there, so I hope that's where I fail, as I'm really getting a bit sick of wasting perfectly good coils this way
If that doesn't help, I think I'm about ready to just fall back to my pre-torched coils - they do work after all, would just be nice to learn this way of making them as well, even if I'm still a bit nervous about the scorching of my insulator grommets, that rubber smell is anything but pleasant, even at low voltages.

Thanks for the advice, as always

I was building out an experimental new wick/wire combination with a master professional builder yesterday. We're researching just to what degree tension assists complex wire installations. In this case some twisted pair. Using the same technique of applying tension we wound three separate coils. Two easily accomplished adhesion and the darn things looked like rigid barrels with perfect knuckle alignment. The third looked like a door spring. Not even close. And we theorized that there was a very slight loss of tension early on that caused one or more of the knuckles of the twisted wire not to inter-mesh. That would have been enough to skew the coil and prevent adhesion if the tension was only just enough.

Sh!te happens LB.

I can understand if you give it a rest. At least it seems you understand the technique and if you come back to it, it perhaps may be with some clarity.

A comment though about the grommet burn. Usually when leads get hot it's because one or both of the end turns are loose. The short can be slight enough that it's not very hot. The legs get red but not red enough to be seen depending on how much light you have in the room or setting that you're building in. Two possibilities. One or both end turns are getting pushed up when you finally set the grommet and/or pin. The other, despite the tension, an incidental contact to each other or the wall of the assembly. These are the usual suspects. Since it seems you're on the money with your compression builds you've likely overcome that but it's always good to mention when somebody brings up an apparent short. Dim the lights I'd say and take a peek. It may reveal what's happening.

Good luck LB. Gotta run.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Short answer: in your case M, and for most of us including me (when I think I have, rather than having observed it)…Not terminating tightly opposed to the legs' exit path at rotation.

The most commonly occurring [problems with builds], not an electrical expert by any means, I'd say:

1. Positive short at termination (leg hanger)...

So what does that leave? Problems with termination. And these are harder to detect. The first though should be checked all the time and that is the leg hanger.

Thought I'd sneak in for a short to pen a few words to the wise here.

Back on Jan 17 at Post #544 I wrote a little synopsis on the bane of Protank and clearo users — termination shorts. As you may note right up there at the top of the list is the #1 cause of problems, the one that pokes it's head out nine-outta-ten times, leg hangers. I also expressed my concerns that silicone grommets would do anything but solve the problem. Various other nightmares as it turns out would seem to describe the concerns resulting from the introduction of silicone.

When I joined this thread I had a love-hate relationship with the Protank. Since I've come to admire the laudable aspects of its engineering for being an inexpensive tank. And in that sense the quality has improved. In it's inferior aspects the opposite has happened. If you are a typical user who does not rebuild you are at the mercy of these difficiences and no doubt a continuation of the unpredictable performance typical of clearomizers. With increasing complexity of those inferior aspects we should only expect more of the same.

If you've joined this thread to take charge of your life and your vape once again as you did when you decided to quit smoking now would be a good time to pay attention to the discussion. We're getting down to brass tacks here on how and why these devices should work properly.

With any luck we'll make the best of it.

Post #544 might be a good start.

Good luck.

 

[LazyBulldogge]

Looks like the loose end turn is where it's at for me. Just built two coils, both had loose end turns, so it all comes down to me not being able to install the coil, without disturbing the end turns.
Slight compression on the end turns after heating the coil, and I got a beautiful centreglow going on and no red coil legs.
One coil was built on a screwdriver, the other on a drill bit in a power drill, both had the same issue, so my tension is good, that's positive

 

[MacTechVpr]

Looks like the loose end turn is where it's at for me. Just built two coils, both had loose end turns, so it all comes down to me not being able to install the coil, without disturbing the end turns.
Slight compression on the end turns after heating the coil, and I got a beautiful centreglow going on and no red coil legs.
One coil was built on a screwdriver, the other on a drill bit in a power drill, both had the same issue, so my tension is good, that's positive

Ah…the a-haa moment has arrived.

Now comes the rewarding part of the discovery process LB…the vape!

Congrats!

 

[LazyBulldogge]

Hehe, I'm already enjoying the vape, with my pre-torched coils. At least I know what I'm doing wrong now.
If I can be bothered to fix it, or just go with my "wanna-be's", only time will tell.

On another note, I got my 1 mm and 2 mm Ekowool today, and played around with it for a bit. 1 mm was easily threaded through the coil, using the plastic wrap trick, but the 2 mm wouldn't fit. The 1 mm seems to fall completely apart when I cut it though, so I think I'll just stick to cotton.

 

[Taowulf]

On another note, I got my 1 mm and 2 mm Ekowool today, and played around with it for a bit. 1 mm was easily threaded through the coil, using the plastic wrap trick, but the 2 mm wouldn't fit. The 1 mm seems to fall completely apart when I cut it though, so I think I'll just stick to cotton.

I didn't like the Ekowool for pretty much the same reasons. I didn't like working with it especially compared to cotton .

Sent from underwater with my Kyocera Hydro via Tapatalk

 

[MacTechVpr]

It isn't often that I endorse someone by name but occasionally you run across an outfit which really provides valuable service. So I'm gonna give a shout out here to Suncoast Precision Tools in Largo, FL for their exceptional attention. I'm always searching for reliable sources for drills and drill blanks and I tapped them on the shoulder recently as my alt's were out of stock. They showed the items I was looking for and I ordered. Promptly the next business day I was informed they didn't have it but their source or an affiliate near me did. They had arranged for local delivery and I could expect it next day. And so it was with this evening's UPS drop. It's this kind of neighborly responsiveness that reminds me what America used to feel like (and it can be again). What goes around, comes around. If you have a need come around to Suncoast. They'll do ya good.

Thanks fella's and good luck.

 

[Garemlin]

Found something really cool for coil building. A mandrel that has 5 different sizes. 1.5mm, 2mm, 3mm, 4mm, and 5mm. Great thing is it was on clearance for ninty nine cents. Regular $4.49. They had several left. Check out your local Michaels.

Tap'd from my LG G2

 

[MacTechVpr]

Found something really cool for coil building. A mandrel that has 5 different sizes. 1.5mm, 2mm, 3mm, 4mm, and 5mm. Great thing is it was on clearance for ninty nine cents. Regular $4.49. They had several left. Check out your local Michaels.

Tap'd from my LG G2

A great quick and dirty solution. Michael's is a goldmine (and right next door to my Home Despot).

 

[f1vefour]

Found something really cool for coil building. A mandrel that has 5 different sizes. 1.5mm, 2mm, 3mm, 4mm, and 5mm. Great thing is it was on clearance for ninty nine cents. Regular $4.49. They had several left. Check out your local Michaels.

Tap'd from my LG G2

And it has a Dimitry pink handle to boot, that's just full of win...

 

[Garemlin]

Looky what I got. Guess it's time.

Tap'd from my LG G2

 

[bover907]

After getting several good coils made with like 7 or 8 wraps of 31awg kanthal (I only had 3 feet), I made a few with 30awg Kanthal, 10 wraps. The resistance is the same, but now I get flooding and leaking. I tried stuffing with different amounts of cotton, but can't seem to get them to not gurgle or flood. I even tried making a cotton flavor wick, and still get the issues.

All the heads I made with the 31awg performed flawlessly, even after a few re-wickings. What's the issue? After being cocky on here about how I had such an easy time getting the amount of cotton right, now all of a sudden, I get these issues.

 

[f1vefour]

Perhaps your setting the coils too far into the cup.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Perhaps your setting the coils too far into the cup.

F1ve I think your instincts were right. Perhaps let's rephrase the question (find out what's missing).

After getting several good coils made with like 7 or 8 wraps of 31awg kanthal (I only had 3 feet), I made a few with 30awg Kanthal, 10 wraps. The resistance is the same, but now I get flooding and leaking. I tried stuffing with different amounts of cotton, but can't seem to get them to not gurgle or flood. I even tried making a cotton flavor wick, and still get the issues.

All the heads I made with the 31awg performed flawlessly, even after a few re-wickings. What's the issue? After being cocky on here about how I had such an easy time getting the amount of cotton right, now all of a sudden, I get these issues.

Bov, congratulations on the early efforts.

What was the Ø that you wound on in both instances? And since the topic came up, where/how are you positioning in the slot in both instances. What was the power level/s applied? If a mech, are you using the same battery/s and/or mod? Was it tensioned or torched. What is the "same" resistance?

A bit surprising since 30AWG is a lot easier to work with than 31 and readily produces a tensioned m.c. that's stable, fires fast with great distribution if a t.m.c. At .07" you should be able to put enough cotton or any wick in it to more than adequately feed a PT as you're seeing. With 8/9 turns on this Ø you'll produce the two targets of ~1.85 or 2.0Ω that are ideal zones for power delivery on this tank; if, the geometry and localization of those winds are consistent with the tanks design. If anything with a t.m.c. not enough power (more capable of handling flow) rather than inadequate.

The crux of the topic, regarding contact coils, that I've tried to steer this thread to is temperature. How to achieve it. Consistently The precise inalterable target that you need to get a specific result (of vapor, flavor) for a specific juice. Flooding is a symptom of inadequate power applied. And that would suggest the geometry is not [now] optimal…or very simply, a persistent short.

In other words, how can we accurately compare two builds functionally but with the same metric and method?

Your description suggests you somehow departed from your winning strategy. But as I've mentioned often there's grommets and a hanger in the middle. So we would need to make sure you're not seeing those with 30 AWG. The thicker the wire the more likely you are to see them skew and pop out. Let's start with the roots. See if we can't nail it down.

Let us know bov and curious about the resistance returns you're seeing. Would help to know.

Good luck.