Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

View attachment 342634View attachment 342637

Wick installed and pre-soaked.

So Maz, check out the second pic and how little cotton I use. It shows why "wick sag" is an issue for me and why I use the WT method. I found that less wick means monster vape; as dense a vape as the rxw I tried, even with my crappy cotton.

Checked out the video. Definitely going to order some KGD! Love the oriented fibers.

Will probably try to use less kgd than superx though as I like to encourage as much capillary action as possible in the kpts.

Thanks Maz

Edit: just ordered kgd at barneys.com for $12 free shipping.

Cig

That is a really pretty build cig. Congrats. It obviously works.

My initial concerns were it the pull up would distort the coil or leave a gap underneath the wick exposing the slot. Obviously some issues you have dealt with in the way you deploy the wick. The wick seems uniform and a lot less cotton than I would use instinctively. Perhaps why I didn't experience much success. The density used depends very much on the cotton variety and its fiber uniformity and consistency.

Bear in mind that J-cotton is very directional. It may not like having its tails tucked as much as you're accustomed. And due to its fiber directional uniformity it's likely to be less permeable. Nextel is too inflexible for such gymnastics. Will be interesting to see your tests. Assuming you can overcome these potential pitfalls stabilizing the wick is always a good idea as it helps to reinforce the coil orientation.

Some thoughts cig. Hope helps. I know you'll enjoy it. In drippers its proving to be a great performer and I look forward to your tank test.

Good luck.

 

[Mazinny]

Kinda what I figured maz. Finding the optimal res. production zones on the KPT and helping folks quickly get to temp sweet spot closest to them would offer the best solution for the greatest number.

Most of us just don't have the time. Some, not the inclination.

But the tools are there the day it suits your fancy.

Good luck all.

Big thanks to you Mac ! and a big assist to superx for posting the video demonstrating your technique. When i first started reading your posts, there was about 70 % goodread factor and 30 % huh !? With the passage of time, i have become a lot more versed in MacTechese and the ratio stands at 90/10 currently

 

[cigatron]

With the passage of time, i have become a lot more versed in MacTechese and the ratio stands at 90/10 currently

MacTechese. LMAO!

Yeah, nothing like a little dose of philosophy with each technical insite.

 

[cigatron]

That is a really pretty build cig. Congrats. It obviously works.

My initial concerns were it the pull up would distort the coil or leave a gap underneath the wick exposing the slot. Obviously some issues you have dealt with in the way you deploy the wick. The wick seems uniform and a lot less cotton than I would use instinctively. Perhaps why I didn't experience much success. The density used depends very much on the cotton variety and its fiber uniformity and consistency.

Bear in mind that J-cotton is very directional. It may not like having its tails tucked as much as you're accustomed. And due to its fiber directional uniformity it's likely to be less permeable. Nextel is too inflexible for such gymnastics. Will be interesting to see your tests. Assuming you can overcome these potential pitfalls stabilizing the wick is always a good idea as it helps to reinforce the coil orientation.

Some thoughts cig. Hope helps. I know you'll enjoy it. In drippers its proving to be a great performer and I look forward to your tank test.

Good luck.

A little closer view of my "pretty build" revealed loss of adhesion on both end turns evidenced by the tiny white lines of wick showing through. Minute but still there.
No doubt caused by the legs entering the grommet out of perpendicularly with the coil axis.

Thanks for the heads up on the j-cotton Mac

Cig

 

[brookj1986]

View attachment 342831

A little closer view of my "pretty build" revealed loss of adhesion on both end turns evidenced by the tiny white lines of wick showing through. Minute but still there.

Thanks for the heads up on the j-cotton Mac

Cig

Still looks darn nice Cig. Darn nice. You use much less cotton than I do. I always was getting spray in my mouth when I used such little cotton. I did just purchase kgd. Xc116 readyxwick is what I'm currently using in my pt2. Working out AMAZINGLY.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[MacTechVpr]

View attachment 342831

A little closer view of my "pretty build" revealed loss of adhesion on both end turns evidenced by the tiny white lines of wick showing through. Minute but still there.
No doubt caused by the legs entering the grommet out of perpendicularly with the coil axis.

Thanks for the heads up on the j-cotton Mac

Cig

K, thanks for that great shot. All in all, a pretty good build. Pulsing will fixit.

Lookin' at a close up of your blow up now. And I'll try to explain this as simply as possible.

First, you're on what I say is the perpendicular with the end turn alignment. That is they terminate in the same direction as they rotate the coil. Looking at the coil from above the legs continue, albeit straight downward, in the same direction as the turn they came off of. Fine, no worries. It's the straight downward part that causes a problem here.

Straight up and down is susceptible, critically so, to push up. That can come from simply mounting the tank. A bit of additional pressure on the pin. Even a minute .1mm transmitted directly can push up an end turn. And how? When the lead slips within the grommet.

Why does this happen? Slippery silicone for one. Out of spec pins, another. Too much pressure added in rotation of tightening (it just overcomes all resistance).

The workaround I came up with struggling with the very workable system I'd devised by the time silicone came out...EXIT IN ROTATION OF TURN. Obviously then this means a lot more than merely perpendicular termination of the leads. It does. And I'll try and make it clear here.

If you examine your pic, look at the positive termination at the lower left of the coil. Let's call that point 7:00 O'Clock. If the lead continued the turn another 55-60 degrees it would be pointing directly upwards towards the 11:00 O'Clock of the pin position. Or directly beneath the left center point of that last turn. Likewise with the neg lead which resides at roughly 2:00 O'clock in the pic but should be resting at about 4:30 in this build (given the right shift of this coil).

Now, had the two leads terminated where and as I explain and had you tightened them firmly by hand or lightly with a forceps the slack would have been taken up and the end turns brought solidly in towards the center of the coil.

Why you ask? If the coil is wrapped with tension it will strive to pull in. It will only need a little reminder if strain separated it from the rest of the coil during the build. Pulling it taught across from the vertical position tightens the end turn back in contact with the mandrel lengthening its contact with the surface. I will say tho fiddling can make distortion permanent. If simply setting in the right orientation doesn't get them to lay still where they ought…well, you'll just have to add more tension. In this scenario tighter is better to save the coil.

I resist overly tensioning because it has another distinct implication, lead slip within the grommet. That you'll have to watch out for. And it will manifest itself as a slight deviation in resistance. Often during tank install or resistance check. Maybe something you can live with if it's not too bad but you ended up with a high turn anyway. It happens. Better to take the chance tightening the coil than just accepting the loose turns. A burnt grommet will definitely ruin your vape and juice pretty quickly.

So I'll repeat any significant skew, and this would be one type of example, merits thinking whether to keep the wind. It takes seconds to spin out another and rebuild with a swift cigatron bottom feed.

So sum up, exit at the turn implies both a perpendicular termination and one where the leads terminate on the opposite side of the coil from the straight down position. That and a little tension take up the lead slack and consequently the loose end turn.

This my friends can get you that first pulse micro if you get it down pat. And it has to do with our earlier convo cig on tweezing the leads just after wind in the direction the turn exits the coil while you're prepping it on the bit. And...the resulting cat's claw "Y" which when inserted will cause the leads to sit on the edge of the assembly cup pretty much where they need to be terminated.

I know it's a lot. But a few times and it's muscle memory.

Good luck cig.

 

[f1vefour]

I find if my coil is as follows in this diagram I don't lose contact on the end wraps (I fat-finger drew this on a phone so excuse the crudeness):

 

[cigatron]

I find if my coil is as follows in this diagram I don't lose contact on the end wraps (I fat-finger drew this on a phone so excuse the crudeness):

54, thanks for the illustration. The left sketch is what I have been doing and normally don't have probs with separation any more.
I tried the right sketch a dozen times and never produced a usable coil even though Mac has been successful with it. I'm probably still missing something.

Cig

 

[cigatron]

K, thanks for that great shot. All in all, a pretty good build. Pulsing will fixit.

Lookin' at a close up of your blow up now. And I'll try to explain this as simply as possible.

First, you're on what I say is the perpendicular with the end turn alignment. That is they terminate in the same direction as they rotate the coil. Looking at the coil from above the legs continue, albeit straight downward, in the same direction as the turn they came off of. Fine, no worries. It's the straight downward part that causes a problem here.

Straight up and down is susceptible, critically so, to push up. That can come from simply mounting the tank. A bit of additional pressure on the pin. Even a minute .1mm transmitted directly can push up an end turn. And how? When the lead slips within the grommet.

Why does this happen? Slippery silicone for one. Out of spec pins, another. Too much pressure added in rotation of tightening (it just overcomes all resistance).

The workaround I came up with struggling with the very workable system I'd devised by the time silicone came out...EXIT IN ROTATION OF TURN. Obviously then this means a lot more than merely perpendicular termination of the leads. It does. And I'll try and make it clear here.

If you examine your pic, look at the positive termination at the lower left of the coil. Let's call that point 7:00 O'Clock. If the lead continued the turn another 55-60 degrees it would be pointing directly upwards towards the 11:00 O'Clock of the pin position. Or directly beneath the left center point of that last turn. Likewise with the neg lead which resides at roughly 2:00 O'clock in the pic but should be resting at about 4:30 in this build (given the right shift of this coil).

Now, had the two leads terminated where and as I explain and had you tightened them firmly by hand or lightly with a forceps the slack would have been taken up and the end turns brought solidly in towards the center of the coil.

Why you ask? If the coil is wrapped with tension it will strive to pull in. It will only need a little reminder if strain separated it from the rest of the coil during the build. Pulling it taught across from the vertical position tightens the end turn back in contact with the mandrel lengthening its contact with the surface. I will say tho fiddling can make distortion permanent. If simply setting in the right orientation doesn't get them to lay still where they ought…well, you'll just have to add more tension. In this scenario tighter is better to save the coil.

I resist overly tensioning because it has another distinct implication, lead slip within the grommet. That you'll have to watch out for. And it will manifest itself as a slight deviation in resistance. Often during tank install or resistance check. Maybe something you can live with if it's not too bad but you ended up with a high turn anyway. It happens. Better to take the chance tightening the coil than just accepting the loose turns. A burnt grommet will definitely ruin your vape and juice pretty quickly.

So I'll repeat any significant skew, and this would be one type of example, merits thinking whether to keep the wind. It takes seconds to spin out another and rebuild with a swift cigatron bottom feed.

So sum up, exit at the turn implies both a perpendicular termination and one where the leads terminate on the opposite side of the coil from the straight down position. That and a little tension take up the lead slack and consequently the loose end turn.

This my friends can get you that first pulse micro if you get it down pat. And it has to do with our earlier convo cig on tweezing the leads just after wind in the direction the turn exits the coil while you're prepping it on the bit. And...the resulting cat's claw "Y" which when inserted will cause the leads to sit on the edge of the assembly cup pretty much where they need to be terminated.

I know it's a lot. But a few times and it's muscle memory.

Good luck cig.

Mac, how bout a couple of pics showing the y-claw coil ready for install?

Cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

I find if my coil is as follows in this diagram I don't lose contact on the end wraps (I fat-finger drew this on a phone so excuse the crudeness):

Good for you f1ve. Love the exhibit. I know it works for ya. Your are one adept Protanker and I'd bet can probably wind me in circles from here to Sunday. But I will tell ya why your suggestion does not often work for many of us...

Short answer: As the rigidity of the grommet material decreases you see an increasing incidence of end turn dislocation from set or mount pressure with a vertical lead set vs. the perpendicular exit of direction of rotation that I describe.

I've found that demonstrably with a firm old school grommet there's a lot more leeway for off-spec (undersized) pins, push up pressure when you install it, etc. This includes a tolerance for lack of termination rotation or what you describe as your termination location (checkmark).

In favor of your suggestion, I have to say I struggled with this back-and-forth a long time. My inclination is towards efficiency and so to shorten the lead and save a few mm's. Make the overall wind as short and tight as possible.

Well for one thing, just one example of what can happen in somebody else's build, not your's, with that solution…they never get the lead tension right. Huh, you say? Not all people build the way you do, with your precision. They might more consistently add too much tension or not be consistent at all especially at matching lead strain. When that happens with a vertical lead set and a less firm grommet (one example) the lead slips up at the set. Common result: Vertical skew on bit withdrawal, accordion coil…and irreversible loss of adhesion.

If you are haphazard in your vertical placement, say to 3:00 or 9:00 O'Clock, you can skew the coil diagonally with uneven tension. That is, pull at the legs along the axis with lead strain. What I refer to as straddle. It's more easily avoided when the coil is set in the manner I describe as it necessarily must be done with lead tension to work. The lack of such tension or balance of it is often more readily evident as you build. One indicator, slight horizontal skew when overly done, as I discussed with maz in an earlier post. And slight adjustments of the lead set position and tension can cure these and center the wind on the bit. I would admit there are justifications for this but it would make this a very long post. The direct vertical does permit the most relaxed set possible. But you had better have a very firm grommet/pin set. Or, trouble.

All I do here f1ve is point out the mechanics. As I mentioned to maz, my focus has been to flesh out what works for the vast majority of users, the greatest number of times. That has been my strategy. Not necessarily a discourse on each alternative of what may arguably work. I've spent a lot of time here, but not for that kind of effort.

I've tried diligently to document the procedural solution rather than a material one. But as you know f1ve I have been .....in' mightily at the damned silicone. The reasons I constantly expound upon, including here.

One exceedingly compelling reason for this criteria is this: What termination geometry best stands the chance to preserve the adhesion tensioned and fused symmetry of the coil?

That's the rubber test f1ve.

The process I attempt to define and refine here along with everyone's help is one that just works consistently for most of us. I also don't want to confuse people with variations and the reasons for them (although at times I have, I think). So to be real, I often do vertical sets and for a number of reasons. It's just not what I promote here as the baseline.

So I'm not going to eschew a vertical set. It is not the apple in the garden to be avoided. You had better be good is all. It's the 130 mph serve and your ace percentage must be high. Just sayin'.

Very good luck to all of you as you develop your system. But it's essential that you have one for our beloved Kanger Protank. It has it's preferences. Ours don't always work.

 

[pjmarkert]

Has anyone disassembled or re-coiled the new Kanger Aerotank Mega coils?

 

[f1vefour]

The reason I do it like that is less about the end wraps and more about the coil twisting right or left.

 

[MacTechVpr]

The reason I do it like that is less about the end wraps and more about the coil twisting right or left.

Obvious to me f1ve or you would not be getting the excellent results you do. Also that you must be getting a good pin/grommet set out of the hardware you have.

What you're seeing is the most common type of skew encountered with mandrel wound coils — horizontal axis rotation, or yaw. Not vertical or lateral skew (up or down) of either end of the coil or end-turn.

If you terminate straight down or across the cup and the leads are perpendicular, not pulling in or away from the coil, yaw simply will not happen. But even a slight deviation with tension though and you will see a slight rotation (when you withdraw the bit).

Think about it, it's like you're pulling on one end of the coil. That extra strain on one lead or the other is like a leash on a dog. It's going to guide it in that direction.

I would not try to retrain the set by using a bit or screwdriver to fix the rotation. The easiest and most benign way is to very slightly rotate the set (with bit in place) by gripping both grommet and pin and rotating them both in tandem ever so slightly. Retension slightly as needed after. Provided that the coil otherwise appears to be in adhesion end to end; and if so, if you go full effect first or second pulse, res. holds...you're good (nothing got crossed or shorted).

Bottom line, you missed the perpendicular set. It can't be done perfect every time. No biggie. Some days half that I do exhibit this and not by coincidence I failed to nail the exit direction too. I'm not balancing tension in the legs properly or strayed on the positive lead end position. You tend to nail the negative because it's the first and alignment is easy to ascertain with both leads to compare and the path up and down the cup visible.

Why does it matter? For the reason cigatron noted…you may induce an almost imperceptible separation of the end turn. If there is a strain in the lead pulling away or inward that separation will appear on the top of the end turn or on the bottom!. If the latter, you won't see it at all.

While it may not affect the apparent resistance it will significantly degrade the efficiency of the build (not true t.m.c., hot) and the life of the build.

I chose to promote the mechanics of termination in exit direction long before I introduced the t.m.c. as I realized a technique was going to be needed to reinforce the end turn tension generally to keep shorts down. I could encourage efficiency; terminate tightly straight down. For a t.m.c. however to remain stable given the variability of grommet hardness exit direction termination is almost essential.

But I'll give you this f1ve the body mechanics for the termination is a couple difficulty levels higher than the tension wind itself. It's the high board jump. And you need a little zen when you do that pin set, I keep sayin'.

I'm still down with most people trying to keep the coil tight end-to-end as a solution. I'm still gathering feedback here and locally with users on how well folks do this with both methods to accomplish it. So I appreciate your help and all who contribute.

Good luck f1ve. Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[f1vefour]

I'm definitely not the resident expert and certainly haven't mastered the ProTank. I now have built many more coils for RDA devices than PT heads, it's why you know so much about coils...once you build a 100+ coils the observations made bring knowledge you weren't looking for and the correct procedure (for yourself) simply becomes second nature.

Relaying the knowledge is difficult because sometimes you don't know why it works just that does.

 

[f1vefour]

I generally do build the coils with the legs in X/Y formation but it often causes separation of the end wraps, when I build with the legs facing as shown in the left side of my diagram I simply have less rotation during mounting and tighter end wraps.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Relaying the knowledge is difficult because sometimes you don't know why it works just that does.

I know, and this question is a serious one (termination point). Deduction tells me shorter is more efficient. Innately, I have to play devil's advocate. And I found I had to that with myself on this issue of termination point.

I played tournament tennis for many years. Some folks can never seem to learn the American Twist, even though it is very effective. I thought I had, but never really started really winning with it until I actually did (had more to do with my ball toss location than my body mechanics).

Some days I wonder if I will ever be able to stop testing/building these things (when I have a perfectly good pile of Kay's and Aqua's just sitting there). Certainly I must feel there's a lot still left to be discovered, i.e. I don't have all the answers.

There's a lot to be said for second nature. The trouble is it's too often accompanied by complacency. >>> Me.

(There I go with the philosophizing 'bout vapin' again. Sorry cig. LOL)

Good luck f1ve. Thanks.

 

[Mazinny]

View attachment 342964
Has anyone disassembled or re-coiled the new Kanger Aerotank Mega coils?

Is the wick not exposed, like the Aspire coils ? Do the regular pt3 coils work in the mega ? Been hearing good things about the mega, but it's not as sexy as the aerotank, for sure.

 

[pjmarkert]

Is the wick not exposed, like the Aspire coils ? Do the regular pt3 coils work in the mega ? Been hearing good things about the mega, but it's not as sexy as the aerotank, for sure.

I have no Idea about the wick exposure, I am thinking of getting one of these, I just want to figure out if I can still rewind my own coils like I do with Protank 2. Here is what I have found about the new protanks. The Mega is about the same diameter as a kayfun.

 

[f1vefour]

22mm is the same as a Kayfun. They use ProTank 3 dual coil heads and they can be rebuilt into single coil just as easily as the regular single coil heads.

 

[Mazinny]

I have no Idea about the wick exposure, I am thinking of getting one of these, I just want to figure out if I can still rewind my own coils like I do with Protank 2. Here is what I have found about the new protanks. The Mega is about the same diameter as a kayfun.
View attachment 343419

I read on a different thread, that people didn't like the new mega coils, but that you can use the pt3/aero coils in the tank as well. Those, i have rebuilt as a single quite easily, but i had to modify my normal wicking procedure to fill the extra space, by using ciagatron's wick-tuck method. The results were quite good !

I guess the short answer is that i don't know if the mega coils can be rebuilt easily, but there is another solution, if they can't !

wow, there's an aerotank 2 out already ! If only they spent half as much time on figuring how to build a proper coil, rather than coming with new tank models every couple of months !