Thank you si much , you are all amazing.
Iam learn alot from here. I will take a picture for my build next time.
Iam learn alot from here. I will take a picture for my build next time.
- Status
I'm going to keep this short since it's Christmas time and I'm not ready to write a book on it, but the short answer is YES your stock protank IS broken .That flaw is even worse now that Kanger uses the softer silicone center pin insulator grommet...almost shocked now that Mac overlooked mentioning it, but anyway he's more technician brain locked on the science of coil builds and this being Christmas we can let this slide...THIS TIME heh heh
Good news Freedomfighter, is that this design flaw disease CAN be completely CURED the kanger 510 base which IS the number one reason they all flood and gurgle
ROFLMAO. Great post foggy! Hey at least we don't burn our fav jeans with that wayward cigarette tip anymore, heh? And I've saved X thousands of $$$ this year vaping! Hey, don't forget I was the one that coined the phrase burny grommet syndrome I attributed my wet pants first to cracked coils, true; but, I repented and blamed grommets in the end. Didn't I?
So what now? Are you blaming me for silicone? Huh? Huh?
Thanks for the warm wishes. Hopefully our newcomer has learned his lesson and will heed your enlightened wisdom!
Merry Christmas all.
Its not your fault Mac, it's the damned squashy silicone insulator choking out the bore of the 510 where the coil sits. For all we know, the introduction of the silicone grommets may have been some chinamans master plan to "choke out the old pt's" and encourage us round eye'd westerners to throw away all our single coil kanger devices and move up to the aerotank family. They did sneak in the milled flats on the pt3 head center pins without bothering to carry that halfazzed fix over to the single coil heads when they gave us the softie grommets.
anyway...
Click this to enlarge the image (this diagram by ecf member green zombie)
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...anger-protank-airflow-fix-protank-airflow.png
Back in october '13 green zombie had a thread about the soft grommets squashing outward and causing an arflow restriction within the bore of the stock 510 base on the protanks. This restriction causes a negative pressure in the tank which pulls excessive juice into the wicks, flooding the coil and chimney making it gurgle mercilessly. His fix was to trim off some of the excess rubber grommet flange with an exacto knife so that it wouldnt choke the airflow once its installed into the 510 base. Arrrgh a nightmare task for the public to understand or undertake indeed.
The better fix was to replace the 510 base with an ego base off a minipro. That works well as it eliminates the blocked airflow problem caused by the 510 connection altogether... but it looks a little strange for the bigger tank to be sitting on a minipro ego base. Doing this made the protanks vape just like a minipro...almost gurgle free but not quite cured completely.
Even Kanger was trying to address the grommet clogged 510 base problem with the pt3 heads when they started using a center pin that was milled flat on two sides to give the grommet a space to squash into, thus opening up a slight space for air to flow through the 510 from the air intake holes down around the grommet to finally flow up through the center pin.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rtech-protank-3-dual-coil-atomizer-head-3.jpg
I believe their final solution to the flawed 510 base design was introduced with the aerotank series using the airflow control base design in place of the old piece of crap 510 base. This base locates the coil in such a way that the airflow comes in from the sides of the base and directly to the slot on the pin without any restricted flow.
Now the user can adjust the airflow to suit his preferred draw. A little tighter will help pull more juice if using a heavier juice or higher vg ratio. Open up the flow for thinner juice if the vape is feeling too moist and find that happy medium. For the most part the airflow issues are totally solved and the protanks run gurgle free.
Now where did I put that eggnog...
I swear I'm geeting feeble in my old age, I've somehow forgotten how to vb code img links folks might need to click on the links I posted...arrrgh
Hope you all had a great holiday, and hope you have an even better New Year!!
FF, it could also be your wicking that's causing the problem.. When I first started rebuilding (my PT's), it took me awhile to find the perfect density & amount of cotton. With Protank's, you have to get the wick perfect, so that the right amount of juice can flow to the coil.
... Not enough wick - and you'll have flooding, leaking, and gurgling. Too much and/or too thick of wick, and juice flow to the coil will be restricted to the coil - causing dry/burnt nasty hits.
Lots of other factors can cause flooding/leaking too: not enough airflow, not enough power or too low of a wattage for the coil, puffing to hard when you vape..
Hope you get it cleared up. These guys will help ya out
FF, it could also be your wicking that's causing the problem.. When I first started rebuilding (my PT's), it took me awhile to find the perfect density & amount of cotton. With Protank's, you have to get the wick perfect, so that the right amount of juice can flow to the coil.
... Not enough wick - and you'll have flooding, leaking, and gurgling. Too much and/or too thick of wick, and juice flow to the coil will be restricted to the coil - causing dry/burnt nasty hits.
Lots of other factors can cause flooding/leaking too: not enough airflow, not enough power or too low of a wattage for the coil, puffing to hard when you vape..
Hope you get it cleared up. These guys will help ya out
Great posts Foggy. Love the illustrations showing the pit falls of the PT base design.http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rtech-protank-3-dual-coil-atomizer-head-3.jpg
While we're slamming tank designs I thought I'd chuck in my 2¢.
First comes flooding, then gurgling and leaking. It is possible to identify and clear flooding before it becomes gurgling in most cases though. Reduced vapor output, harsh taste , excessive throat hit and hot vapor are signs that you are on your way to gurgling. A quick wrist flip of device (like a thermometer) to sling the excess juice out through the driptip opening works every time for clearing flooding and gurgling but it will return if not addressed. Soooo
Some known conditions that cause coil flooding: Leaky tank, wattage too low for coil build, excessive draw effort, underwicked, overheated tank, altitude change, ambient temp change and of course laying the tank on its side when near empty. The combination of two or more of these can make for a really crappy day.
Most all of these have been written on multiple times here in this thread and the fixes are there. Dang, I guess that leaves me without an excuse.......
While we're slamming tank designs I thought I'd chuck in my 2¢.
First comes flooding, then gurgling and leaking. It is possible to identify and clear flooding before it becomes gurgling in most cases though. Reduced vapor output, harsh taste , excessive throat hit and hot vapor are signs that you are on your way to gurgling. A quick wrist flip of device (like a thermometer) to sling the excess juice out through the driptip opening works every time for clearing flooding and gurgling but it will return if not addressed. Soooo
Some known conditions that cause coil flooding: Leaky tank, wattage too low for coil build, excessive draw effort, underwicked, overheated tank, altitude change, ambient temp change and of course laying the tank on its side when near empty. The combination of two or more of these can make for a really crappy day.
Most all of these have been written on multiple times here in this thread and the fixes are there. Dang, I guess that leaves me without an excuse.......
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Hope you all had a great holiday, and hope you have an even better New Year!!
FF, it could also be your wicking that's causing the problem.. When I first started rebuilding (my PT's), it took me awhile to find the perfect density & amount of cotton. With Protank's, you have to get the wick perfect, so that the right amount of juice can flow to the coil.
... Not enough wick - and you'll have flooding, leaking, and gurgling. Too much and/or too thick of wick, and juice flow to the coil will be restricted to the coil - causing dry/burnt nasty hits.
Lots of other factors can cause flooding/leaking too: not enough airflow, not enough power or too low of a wattage for the coil, puffing to hard when you vape..
Hope you get it cleared up. These guys will help ya out
Thanks for that cool drink of aqua. Merry Christmas! And yes, you happen to be one of the experts on cotton density around these parts pardner. And you know all about slippery leads in gummy silicone and all the resulting burny grommet adventures because they were all covered right here by you, me and our friend trayce. Thanks for hangin' in with us and stopping back in with the insight.
Yep foggy, green zombie's helpful post were covered on this thread early on. Also the fact that trimming grommets didn't work because it reduced the friction and compression on the leads which is a vital purpose of the grommet, to ground and complete the circuit. It's not a leak plug, or at least I'm sure for the folks at Kanger not intended to be. LOL
What I'm trying to point out is that here is one important place on ECF where all of these issues on Kangers (and clearo's in general) are covered under one roof. Many of these answers returned with a simple search. And with good links to sources throughout ECF. All the more reason I encourage you all to help me route folks here.
Thanks for all your contributions aqua!
Happy Holidays!
You said a mouthful a million ways to flood a Kanger Protank (510 connection). And Lord knows how often we seem to find 'em on this thread, LOL. Not to mention that once you get there and and put your finger on it <smile> we still have to deal with the tragedy of airflow and foggy's compressed grommet obstruction to boot!
As I've said, I have a love-hate relationship with the Kanger Protank. Don't we all? We dealt with all of these issues since the start of last Fall on this Protank Micro thread. So yeah, no excuses, newcomers can get help here for reals. This wasn't intended to be a basics thread. But it turned out to be one hell of a place to appreciate the fundamentals of what makes clearo's and atomizers work in general.
So route folks here, (Facebook, if you have) "like" the thread or posts every once in a while (put it on your timeline), don't forget to set page tags at the bottom if you find a solution helpful or feel your post is instructive. One hundred thousand nice folks read this thread since its inception and no doubt took something away.
But all these heartaches come to nought when you can build to a stable coil and resistance. That's the gift that keeps on giving revealing the value (or not) of everything else we explore. That's what gets us over and what gets us through.
Thank you all for being here.
Happy Holidays.
Sheeesh... I really feel like the choked 510 base issue is being blown off as a non issue here.
Just keep thinking that way and have fun doing workarounds with wick density etc, but I'm here to tell you you're never going to cure the choked airflow problem as long as you keep pretending the problem doesn't exist. Spend a few dollars and get rid of the damned disease. You'll never know the night and day difference upgrading the base on a protank makes if you keep making up excuses not to try it.
It's your gurgle folks...I tried to explain but some folks just dont get it.
A wise man once said in his blogs...
Just keep thinking that way and have fun doing workarounds with wick density etc, but I'm here to tell you you're never going to cure the choked airflow problem as long as you keep pretending the problem doesn't exist. Spend a few dollars and get rid of the damned disease. You'll never know the night and day difference upgrading the base on a protank makes if you keep making up excuses not to try it.
It's your gurgle folks...I tried to explain but some folks just dont get it.
A wise man once said in his blogs...
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LOL foggy, you do me wrong bro. You're right I did recommend strongly that the Protank's main deficiency was airflow for putting any kind of decent wick or build in. You're absolutely right. Funny but true. And even with the massively improved airflow of the Subtank which to me is better than any Aspire I've tried…it's still not enough.
(I would have drilled through all three holes and left all variable. Was it Busardo that said it? Can't recall. But right on.)
Mea culpa. Have a happy!
Good luck all and Happy Holidays.
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Foggy, pretty much everyone here using PT's upgraded to aero bases ages ago when they became available. Don't know if FreedomFighter is or not. Probably should have asked that question first huh? Anyway, no one disagreed with your assessment bro. Again, thanks for the posts.
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Ya see, this is what I'm talking about, you can LOL funny about it and talk about airflow, but it's really not so much about having an airy'er draw as it IS about eliminating the choked grommet issue altogether. The undeniable Fact is... You could drill out the air holes on the old 510 base until the cows come home and it would do NOTHING to cure the airflow being restricted by that grommet choking the flow and flooding the wick.
Anyway, nuff said. I hope everyone had a great Christmas. All the best for the new year
Foggy's a veteran and long time ally of this thread. i think he was kidding (hope).
Thanks cig.
Happy Holidays all.
Ok ring some bells here. Opened the wrapper tonight on a new wind for the Aero Mega PT…a very straight up 10T on .67"Ø, 28 AWG @ 1.48Ω with NeX-T naturally. However in my effort to go straight for the goal posts here, I got a bit rushed. This was to demo a more rational optimal center for the Mega, instead I brain farted. Been a while since I laid this particular flavor. LOL But I forgot to pulse the coil!
Yeah, well, we all do the stupid sometime.
Today was my turn.
It gave me a good reminder of things past. And perhaps poignantly so as I appraise the Mega anew atop an IPV2S and new Subtank riding a CANA50, both recent pre-Season arrivals. These were essential as I could not drive some coils in recent tests to their limits riding a VAMO, Sig or eVic of PT1 vintage or newer as 20W in this world is not enough. And the past was driven starkly home in my consciousness testing the new OCC coil which tastes about as close to a perfect silica coil as I can imagine. We'll have to save that for another day though only to say with some promise that this is a nice tank. Also…boys and girls…our rebuilding days aren't over…huh-huh.
Ok, well, you're going to ask…what's it vape like? Well, like ..... of course. WTH ya askin' silly questions!
Some intriguing first impressions and observations…
• Despite the lack of oxidation this particularly precise t.m.c. in adhesion doesn't short (right on res), yay!
• What's it taste like? A loose terminal connection…hot, dry and burny (why I chased the oxidation of a t.m.c. in the first place).
• This kind of resembles the hottest over-drag on an analog I can recall.
• Why do so many say that's such a great vape? They're dreamin'. Your guess is as good as mine.
• Which begs the question…is there a wire change in the OCC? Because they nailed that particular throat feel.
• And…why are our oriental friends leading our taste buds in that direction? Because the rad cloud chasers like it?
Dunno. Don't think so. But I can tell you without the comprehensive oxidation brought by tension winding to adhesion your upper limit on a ceramic wick is going to be throttled to v3 VW levels, or a max of 15W. And that's not the Christmas bird we're chasing here.
Oh, and the t.m.c. @1.5Ω regardless blows the doors off the OCC for flavor even in this handicapped state (both 17.5W). Silica, no matter how perfect, always tastes like cardboard to me. So it's kinda serendipitous I had this little accidente to snap my head back into reality. Although to give Kanger credit, their engineering precision to fix on this particularly bizarre taste target is nigh short of remarkable. They must think we're all <.1Ω cloud junkies over here winding <20g 'cause that's what they got. How they managed that with Japanese cotton and Kanthal and on a .5Ω build, I'll never know…Oh, but we said…Oh, yeah.
What I believe and it's evident is that Kanger is covering all their bases. Smart move Kanger, as a business stratagem.
In short, the Subtank is by far the most incredibly well engineered tank Kanger's done. It shows in a lot of wonderful ways not the least of which is less leaking and draw more formidable and desirable in texture than the Nautilus plus what, 7ml? This much goodness in a friggin' easy fill you gotta like. Although it kinda resembles some kinda particle space weapon on a H-ANA box. I called the test at 4 days, about average, after draws started to get lean, flavor even more subdued and the rate of CANA chip "too hot" returns just got to me while chaining. So I did my contrarian thing and poured massive amounts of pure VG into how many fills. Eventually, and I'm sitting here day-5, refilling with my mid-density tobacco and kinda likin' it but for the restored artificial feeling sub-Ω taste texture. All-in-all the Sub mit OCC gonna be win for vapers wanting a consumer tank low-res simulation for real nic throat hit…as if this really satisfies us vapers, how? Clue, they gonna drip Kanger.
Here some kudos to Diamond Vapor in Hollywood FL, very much geared to that performance crowd, for having this great tank on hand for the Holidays. If you missed out kiddies they won't go until ya get some. If you're lucky, you might still.
As a design goal again to Kanger's credit the .5Ω stack gives the tank the versatility required for some output limited variable devices. Perhaps someone more adept at the power relationships would care to take a stab at this it's too late in the morning to dissect it.
So winding down the more than the 4 months long trial of the monster…a tandem 9T on .07"Ø, 31AWG, w/twisted common positive…
The first dripper trials began some weeks before my first public build at Clouds of Vapor about Aug 5. The first Protank run on Sep 25. All the wire variations so far have been wonderfully effective. Even the 31AWG 18-turn I thought would never go into a Protank has proved impressively stable. However, as I commented earlier in the thread perhaps overkill for the Mega. Nextel and this config need lots of air to go along with the power handling capability of a robust t.m.c. and Nex-T. Incidentally, the COV build on a Sentinel v2 is still running. On KGD no less! The fewest number of cotton wick changes I've ever had to do on any device over the period since. And what this speaks to readers in the affirmative is efficiency.
Not saying this is the best possible walnut crusher for all seasons here. It's certainly not in the Mega. It ran better on the Aero, interestingly. But it is a testament to the advantages of the tension wind to promote efficiency. And that this relatively simple principle can be broadly applied to many devices and coil architectures and its benefits evident across a broad spectrum of juice types and vaping styles. How do I know this? Well, I've had more independent sampling of this one configuration and coil type I think than just about any other that I've done except the venerable 29AWG on .07" cross-roads for the Kanger.
So a temporary hiatus to the monster and back to some more practical builds in performance terms. But perhaps not too OT 3mm single and 2mm dual-coil Nex-T builds for that Subtank accessory in the near future.
Good luck to you all and Happy Holidays.
Yeah, well, we all do the stupid sometime.
Today was my turn.It gave me a good reminder of things past. And perhaps poignantly so as I appraise the Mega anew atop an IPV2S and new Subtank riding a CANA50, both recent pre-Season arrivals. These were essential as I could not drive some coils in recent tests to their limits riding a VAMO, Sig or eVic of PT1 vintage or newer as 20W in this world is not enough. And the past was driven starkly home in my consciousness testing the new OCC coil which tastes about as close to a perfect silica coil as I can imagine. We'll have to save that for another day though only to say with some promise that this is a nice tank. Also…boys and girls…our rebuilding days aren't over…huh-huh.
Ok, well, you're going to ask…what's it vape like? Well, like ..... of course. WTH ya askin' silly questions!
Some intriguing first impressions and observations…
• Despite the lack of oxidation this particularly precise t.m.c. in adhesion doesn't short (right on res), yay!
• What's it taste like? A loose terminal connection…hot, dry and burny (why I chased the oxidation of a t.m.c. in the first place).
• This kind of resembles the hottest over-drag on an analog I can recall.
• Why do so many say that's such a great vape? They're dreamin'. Your guess is as good as mine.
• Which begs the question…is there a wire change in the OCC? Because they nailed that particular throat feel.
• And…why are our oriental friends leading our taste buds in that direction? Because the rad cloud chasers like it?
Dunno. Don't think so. But I can tell you without the comprehensive oxidation brought by tension winding to adhesion your upper limit on a ceramic wick is going to be throttled to v3 VW levels, or a max of 15W. And that's not the Christmas bird we're chasing here.
Oh, and the t.m.c. @1.5Ω regardless blows the doors off the OCC for flavor even in this handicapped state (both 17.5W). Silica, no matter how perfect, always tastes like cardboard to me. So it's kinda serendipitous I had this little accidente to snap my head back into reality. Although to give Kanger credit, their engineering precision to fix on this particularly bizarre taste target is nigh short of remarkable. They must think we're all <.1Ω cloud junkies over here winding <20g 'cause that's what they got. How they managed that with Japanese cotton and Kanthal and on a .5Ω build, I'll never know…Oh, but we said…Oh, yeah.
What I believe and it's evident is that Kanger is covering all their bases. Smart move Kanger, as a business stratagem.
In short, the Subtank is by far the most incredibly well engineered tank Kanger's done. It shows in a lot of wonderful ways not the least of which is less leaking and draw more formidable and desirable in texture than the Nautilus plus what, 7ml? This much goodness in a friggin' easy fill you gotta like. Although it kinda resembles some kinda particle space weapon on a H-ANA box. I called the test at 4 days, about average, after draws started to get lean, flavor even more subdued and the rate of CANA chip "too hot" returns just got to me while chaining. So I did my contrarian thing and poured massive amounts of pure VG into how many fills. Eventually, and I'm sitting here day-5, refilling with my mid-density tobacco and kinda likin' it but for the restored artificial feeling sub-Ω taste texture. All-in-all the Sub mit OCC gonna be win for vapers wanting a consumer tank low-res simulation for real nic throat hit…as if this really satisfies us vapers, how? Clue, they gonna drip Kanger.
Here some kudos to Diamond Vapor in Hollywood FL, very much geared to that performance crowd, for having this great tank on hand for the Holidays. If you missed out kiddies they won't go until ya get some. If you're lucky, you might still.
As a design goal again to Kanger's credit the .5Ω stack gives the tank the versatility required for some output limited variable devices. Perhaps someone more adept at the power relationships would care to take a stab at this it's too late in the morning to dissect it.
So winding down the more than the 4 months long trial of the monster…a tandem 9T on .07"Ø, 31AWG, w/twisted common positive…
The first dripper trials began some weeks before my first public build at Clouds of Vapor about Aug 5. The first Protank run on Sep 25. All the wire variations so far have been wonderfully effective. Even the 31AWG 18-turn I thought would never go into a Protank has proved impressively stable. However, as I commented earlier in the thread perhaps overkill for the Mega. Nextel and this config need lots of air to go along with the power handling capability of a robust t.m.c. and Nex-T. Incidentally, the COV build on a Sentinel v2 is still running. On KGD no less! The fewest number of cotton wick changes I've ever had to do on any device over the period since. And what this speaks to readers in the affirmative is efficiency.
Not saying this is the best possible walnut crusher for all seasons here. It's certainly not in the Mega. It ran better on the Aero, interestingly. But it is a testament to the advantages of the tension wind to promote efficiency. And that this relatively simple principle can be broadly applied to many devices and coil architectures and its benefits evident across a broad spectrum of juice types and vaping styles. How do I know this? Well, I've had more independent sampling of this one configuration and coil type I think than just about any other that I've done except the venerable 29AWG on .07" cross-roads for the Kanger.
So a temporary hiatus to the monster and back to some more practical builds in performance terms. But perhaps not too OT 3mm single and 2mm dual-coil Nex-T builds for that Subtank accessory in the near future.
Good luck to you all and Happy Holidays.
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I will say I have learned the t.m.c from mac every coil I build is done that way. I started with the PT2 st I'll ll have still build it. But if u listen to mac and use his method omg u will say what have I been doing before. The adhesion u get is impressive to say thr least no squeezing no adjustments made install clip ends and vape.LOL, you funny. No such thing as an atheist foggy only a believer in denial. To question is reason and the path to all understanding including faith. But the opposite of faith is nihilism, illusion and pointlessness.
Just want to take a moment to mention my acknowledgment to MattyB1503 for his original dual coil twisted center concept which I adapted to a t.m.c. Not only has it benefitted from matty's observation of reduced voltage drop but the efficiencies gained by adhesion to uniform oxidation and symmetry. It is by far the cleanest concept I've ever done. If you advance search twisted center post you should find some of the posts on it.
I'm running this on the Aero Mega and it's not the best performer. Best density and flavor I've yet gotten at 22.5W but it's a leaky mod at that power level. You can't chain it hard too long. The CANA 50 I'm running it on goes into hot mode long before the tank heats up but a heck of a lot of fluid in the threads and no doubt dripping from the wind into the base if you get there. It ran far better and dryer on a standard Aero with much of the great texture and taste of the Mega. I don't think this wind at 18-turns is practical or that beneficial on a Kanger as the resistance target can easily be hit with straight wire. But it is rock solid stability with this termination. And Nextel just explodes with this kind of power delivery as I've seen on other devices driven to 60W+. Take long extremely rich and delightful pulls on this one (4-6 sec). I alternate this with an 8-turn 2.5mm straight 24 AWG single KGD t.m.c. running on a Trident/M16. for the quick fire on the same tobacco blend. It's definitely worth experiencing if you have the patience to get this to a coherent micro as in this pic...
All I ask is please do give me credit for this concept and link back to me somewhere. It helps me bring attention to the advantages of tensioned micro's, to encourage proper electrical winds and the lifestyle.
I run into peeps every day claiming to be winding super_x's contribution of the micro or my tensioned adaptation and doing everything but. No way folks ever gonna learn if they don't come back to you or the source for the data. The downside is too many of us never get there. So there is a purpose behind my contribution and sharing that we all keep the ball rollin'.
Thank you all for sharing.
Happy Holidays.
Remember guys a pin vise is ur best bet have one use it for every coil I build.
[emoji1]
Happy New Years to all the great friends I've made on this great thread!
cig
cig
Ya Cig, I can hear the echoes from here. Since it's so quite thought I would ask a question to all, how many of you DYI your own ejuice? Just interested.
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Safe to say most of the regulars here. Channelvaps, Clnire, Mactechvapr, Mazziny and myself for sure. Lots of good threads here on ecf for mixing juice too. Follow channelvaps or clnire to get there.
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