Provaping verse Antivaping

[DPLongo22]

When I was a kid they used to light the leave piles on fire to disperse them, right there on the sides of the streets. Funny how they discontinued that practice, jeez, maybe 'bout 45 years ago.

Smoke kills, which is a fact any fireman will sadly verify.

Some truths are evident.

Kat - stop Bogarting the popcorn. Pass it over.

And throw out all the burnt kernels. They've got carcinogens...

 

[stols001]

I think my point was we know (and I should have said, smoking tobacco) is harmful and vaping contans one by-product, nicotine, and yes, it is inhaled. I'm not implying that vaping is *worse* than tobacco, and if I did so, I apologize. My point was that we already KNOW and have known for a long time that smoking is harmful, no one is suggesting removing it from the market. So even IF vaping were AS harmful as tobacco, then it should not be demonized. I'd agree that my own body and many studies have shown it LESS harmful, but it's a moot point. If it's not WORSE than tobacco, it shouldn't be subject to scrutiny, but accepted as a smoking replacement device, or even usage on its own, at this point.

DeAnna I agree that long term risks aren't known. I imagine if anything emerges, it may be down the pike. Again, if I had the *ability* to quit with anything else, and I have tried almost *everything* then I should be allowed to vape, with, as an adult, the ability to evaluate long term harm and decide to stop (or not.) I in NO WAY am trying to imply that smoking== vaping, in any other manner that they both contain tobacco products, one is on the market DESPITE well documented health claims, and we don't even have that yet for vaping, so....

Anna

 

[OlderNDirt]

Well, this seems like as good of time and place as any to ask a question I have been wondering about for some time. This has frequently been mentioned throughout this board many times, so......

"We don't know the long term effects from vaping." Just how long is "long term?"

Is it just however long it takes for a number of people who ever vaped to be treated for or die from cancer or heart disease (not limited to these) so vaping can be blamed?

 

[stols001]

My MIL got lung cancer and she never smoked. She was a secretary for an industrial plant for most of her life, and got exposed to chemicals. (1 lung removed, she's a trouper, still going strong.) I've always considered 20 years as a fairly reasonable barometer.... That being said, I can't imagine that anything showing up (lung cancer and whatnot) would be reasonable to blame on vaping alone, if cigarette smoking happened prior, unless it was of very short duration. For example, my PCP wants me to go for another X-ray in six weeks, as I have some (what everyone assumes) is scarring in my left lobe, from smoking through a few too many pneumonias, but my PCP wants to be sure it isn't spreading into lung cancer, I'd be HIGHLY unlikely to blame it on vaping since it's been less than a month SO FAR, in fact even my doctor would certainly quantify it as smoking related, not vaping related, even to the CDC.

That being said, if vaping is less harmful than vaping, it's pretty easy to look at cohort groups over 20 years. *If* they find that vaping is harm reduction enough to substantially lessen the risk of smoking then I'd think that one would be looking for % of vapers getting negative outcomes after 20 years, versus smokers who'd smoked the same amount of time, to make the cohort even more precise, one could simply choose to compare former smokers still smoking vs vapers who STARTED smoking around the same time, then stopped. It's not a difficult study design, but cohort studies can only measure correlation due to the many other variables at play. They aren't dreadful by any means, they have to be well designed.

Anna

 

[zoiDman]

... There already is a lot of research out there that tells us it is the products from inhaling burning tobacco that is the cause of essentially all the diseases associated with tobacco. Since vaping has none of those, just what is it that is going to cause problems[?]. ...

Is it safe to put 1ml (or more) of Food Flavorings/Sweeteners in your Lung every day? Or if you run Coil Temps above the Temperature that VG Breaks Down, is that Safe?

I Dunno?

 

[Ryedan]

New Hampshire's state motto is, "Live free or die!"

Idaho's state motto is, "Famous potatoes."

Somewhere between these two extremes, the truth lies....... And it's probably closer to, "Famous potatoes."

-George Carlin

I really miss George

 

[stols001]

I don't know either, but I haven't heard of e-cig users keeling over right and left due to vaping.... and it's been about ten years, so I'm going to go with a tentative, "probably," but I'm not sure I care that much at this point. We are supposed to live in a free society, so is drinking bad for you? Should we arrest people for being drunk in public? (Tentative no, there, unless they are also doing something else illegal.) Should we arrest people for driving drunk? Even though I was no fan of MADD in my day, YES we should arrest people for driving drunk. And, we shoudn't make "no drinking" a condition of probation either, or even no driving, necessarily, and certainly an interlock after that for a long time.... But look, companies like uber are coming in so cheaply, that drunk driving seems to have lessened, at least in my town. If we were to consult the taxi industry they would demonize ubers and refer to the sensationalized cases of uber drivers getting robbed, etc., they wouldn't be investigating "how does a really inexpensive and easily accessible business model reduce drunk driving...." That would not be their focus.

Since I vape less than 4 ml a day, I certainly don't think I'm ingesting 1 ml of flavorings per day, especially since I dilute my juice with unflavored..... So ah, I can't really say that I think much about that. Also, I'm sensitive and allergic to some things, so I can usually tell if a particular flavor is giving me bad juju.... I'd imagine that if I continued to smoke *that* flavor, I'd have a negative lung outcome. Also, a lot of people concerned about Temp Data are switching to TC, so far seems that issues concerning vaping that arise become a self-correcting problem. It seems (to me) that e-cigs have always wanted to be a harm reduction option, and have consistently self-corrected over time. That is NOT the case with cigarettes, at least at this point. Cigarette makers are not banding together to remove harmful additives, they don't HAVE to, as long as they can keep people addicted. That said, everyone has an agenda, even me, even you. So, I think I'm going to stick on DeAnna's side and say read all you want, but do what's best *for you.* I prefer not to smoke, and if I get lung cancer after 20 years vaping, I'll be happy.... That's 20 years that wasn't in front of me when I was facing COPD at 43, so, ah, I'll take the nominal risk. Period. You don't have to.

Anna

 

[Ryedan]

Well, this seems like as good of time and place as any to ask a question I have been wondering about for some time. This has frequently been mentioned throughout this board many times, so......

"We don't know the long term effects from vaping." Just how long is "long term?"

Is it just however long it takes for a number of people who ever vaped to be treated for or die from cancer or heart disease (not limited to these) so vaping can be blamed?

AFAIK, the most prevalent problem with smoking is the development of scar tissue in the lung leading to some form of COPD, and can take 40 or more years to show up. I consider that long term.

 

[OlderNDirt]

AFAIK, the most prevalent problem with smoking is the development of scar tissue in the lung leading to some form of COPD, and can take 40 or more years to show up. I consider that long term.

40 years is well past my shelf life! or should I use

 

[DPLongo22]

Is it safe to put 1ml (or more) of Food Flavorings/Sweeteners in your Lung every day? Or if you run Coil Temps above the Temperature that VG Breaks Down, is that Safe?

I Dunno?

Me neither. "Safe" is a funny word though.

Is it safe to drive to the grocery store tomorrow morning?

 

[AXIOM_1]

Is it safe to drive to the grocery store tomorrow morning?

lol ... yeah, it's not "safe" just living on this planet.

 

[zoiDman]

Me neither. "Safe" is a funny word though.

Is it safe to drive to the grocery store tomorrow morning?

"Safe" is a Funny word. Just as "Harm" or "Risk" are.

Especially when they are applied in whole to the Vast Spectrum we call "e-Cigarettes".

 

[Eskie]

Me neither. "Safe" is a funny word though.

Is it safe to drive to the grocery store tomorrow morning?

Depends how far away the grocery store is. But we have lots of data on miles driven and risk of accident, injury, and death. It's the old "which is safer, driving or flying"? We know it's flying, but seeing a plane crash is front page news that makes folks all anxious, whereas we're generally desensitized to seeing a car wreck.

We barely have 10 years of vape experience, and even that is questionable given how much vape gear has changed in the last several years. The best we can do in the absence of long term observation of a large population of vapers is look at what's in the vape, and sort out the generally recognized as safe (by inhalation would really be what you want to know, but not a lot of studies of inhaling sweet strawberry) and which are known to have significant (not just rarely, maybe, or I think) negative effects and go forward with that. Otherwise, it's sitting and waiting for 5 and 10 and 15 year population observations to be collected, which isn't a whole lot of help for me today.

Now, if you compare driving to the grocery store every day for 20 years to smoking for 20 years, we know the grocery store runs should be way safer. Next up, what did you buy at the grocery store, and how will your eating that diet for 20 years turn out.

 

[tj99959]

I always liked the word "safer". It leaves a bunch of wiggle room when describing a product.

I only know one thing for sure, I'm 76 years old, and I'm still alive. If I had continued to smoke I probably would not be.

 

[WillieB69]

Life isn't safe.

 

[Ryedan]

Life isn't safe.

It's the only thing I know that has a 100% death rate

Don't do it!!

 

[stols001]

You know, life's a lot safer nowadays, if you look at say, plague times and whatnot. At least in some places. Since we don't know if it's e-cigs YET, I'm going to say that it MUST be cigarettes..... and abx, and you know, vaccines (we all know they're not safe, yet, right? And yet Jenny McCarthy still has her crusade going on... I'm going to say that the science behind her movement was her extensive plastic surgery, she makes a great, ah, role "model.") We should let her take over the studies on vaping.... Or any other actress, my current favorite being that chick who gave a speech concerning being a "nasty woman" that about made me vomit, and I don't think the label "nasty woman" really needs to be, ah, appropriated. Really, ladies, it doesn't and I prefer not to talk in that much detail about my womanly parts into a microphone, I'm sorry, I just don't.

Anna

 

[OlderNDirt]

The long term effects of life.....is death.

 

[DPLongo22]

The long term effects of life.....is death.

So you're saying I may as well eat the popcorn? Even with the diacetyl?

I'm so confused now.

 

[WillieB69]

You know, life's a lot safer nowadays, if you look at say, plague times and whatnot.

There's plenty of other stuff that can kill you now and wasn't around in the plague times. Our life expectancy is greater now but still plenty of stuff to end us. At least they didn't have to contend with nuclear warheads, .... and politicians.