Provaping verse Antivaping

[Robino1]

Found it!!!!!!!

Box Elder

Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

Seriously, this is a fascinating read.

 

[Katdarling]

Yaay, you (for finding it). (Was going to PM you, but got involved on the phone )

 

[Robino1]

Yaay, you (for finding it). (Was going to PM you, but got involved on the phone )

This happened almost a year before I found vaping. I found it while researching vaping. Read the whole thing too.

I lurked on ECF for months before I joined. Joined the day I got my vape in the mail and just after I took my first vape.

Seems like so much has happened in the vape world since then.

 

[Katdarling]

True dat, sweetie. MUCH.

 

[DeAnna2112]

Before diketones there was the food coloring issue.

If you think about it we, as a group, are very inquisitive. I got into vaping just after, or around the time, people were talking about food coloring being an unnecessary additive to eliquid.

We are always looking for the safer(est) way to vape. There is always someone that is willing to take on these issues.

Before the food coloring there was an unsavory character that wasn't careful about how much nic he was actually putting into his liquids. One of our members, Kurt, stepped up to the plate and tested different bottles to see what those nic contents really were. That unsavory character wasn't in business for much longer.

I'm sure there is someone that can remember the name of that company...it's so close to my memory bank. There was a huge thread on it. Damn! So close to remembering...

I've always maintained that we do a remarkable job policing ourselves. And we continue to do so to this day.

We have Mooch that has devoted his time to battery safety. Especially when our knowledgeable members realized that some of these batteries were Not what their packaging said they were. He continues to test every brand that he comes across.

Recently we have Mike that has taken it upon himself to test different devices to see how hot our coils actually get.

Before these two, we have many others that have used their knowledge in different areas to help out our fellow vapers to get the safest products.

Oh, and vendors sure do pay attention to these threads. Wasn't long before liquid makers were pulling the food coloring out of their liquids!

We Get Things Done!

Looking back at all these people and issues they have taken on, I can't help but think that if the government was in charge of vaping, how long would it take them to alert us? Judging by their track record, nothing happens unless people die.

I am blessed to be vaping before government gets their hands in this industry.

HERE HERE!!!!! Amen and well said!

 

[DeAnna2112]

I just want to say i failed to mention Dr. F and thank you Robino1 because i believe it was you who brought him up. I dropped the ball in giving him recognition. Anytime that man has asked for financial support for his research i have been right there dishing it out. I trust him and put alot of faith in his work. The reason being is because he has always been upfront with the pros and cons of his findings. He truly seeks to make vaping an alternative..a safe alternative to smoking...but when he finds concerns he brings it to the table. This is the kinda research i pay attention to. I really feel like he is looking out for us and wants to improve vaping to be as safe as possible. None of us, least i think not, can deny how much vaping has improved our health, but we have some issues to work out as well. If those issues are there i feel like he will be on top of it doing his best, with the funding he has, to figure it out. I don't want to hear what i want to hear, i want to hear it all for better or for worse. I believe Dr. F is that person. I have just been so busy with college and work and been out of the loop for awhile, but i did drop the ball on mentioning him. Just want to give credit where credit is due.

 

[Alien Traveler]

... Somebody mentioned Dr. F. I do pay attention to his research because he is not afraid to call out his findings whether it supports vaping or not. I pay close attention to his research given. I don't see him as provaping or antivaping, he's just a doctor who seeks out the truth regardless of what it may be.
...

Some times ago Dr. Farsalinos was very pro-vaping. With developing and wide adoption of high-powered devices he became really worried. Because of this I started to respect him. Yes, I hope he is seeking the truth.

 

[DaveP]

The first class I took in college was a health class I was forced to take but had no interest in. I cant remember why it was brought up but the professor was going on about how smoking was bad... (m'kay?) and she then proceeded to say "and dont tell me you vape, because thats even worse" with no bearing or anything after that the discussion moved on. Its at the point where people dont feel as if they need any evidence to go and convince people that vaping is bad because they dont like it.

Wonder how many smokers were in that class who are now saying "Vaping is bad, m'kay?" And I wonder how many people in that class decided to look up nothing further than an "authority" figure telling them it was bad.

I learned early on to take controversial topics with college professors offline instead of in front of the class. You get fairer grading that way ...

Still, I'd have to have an after class discussion with that professor about vaping vs smoking. Some of them just have agendas that they propagate.

IMO, vaping and smoking are far removed from each other in terms of health risks. We are better off just breathing plain old air, but if vaping takes the cigarettes away from smokers, then it's better just for that reason. In 10 years of media and medical scrutiny there's been no medical proof that it's harmful. That doesn't mean it's safe, but it's a good indicator that there's probably not a hidden gotcha waiting for us.

 

[Eskie]

All of us serve as test subjects for vaping. Most of us have told our doctors that we've quit smoking through vaping and vaping is our new source of nicotine. Mine thinks it's great way to get away from the smoking habit. He agrees that it's a good substitute for the cigarette habit and he hasn't hounded me like he used to about smoking.

Is it safe? I don't know. What I do know is that my lungs are clear and I'm stronger when I do outside yard work. I don't huff and puff like I did when I smoked. I don't really look at vaping as a temporary crutch to quit smoking. I view it as a transition that I enjoy and one that I plan to continue doing.

It's the hand to mouth, inhale and exhale thing that I use as a tension reliever. When I quit smoking cold turkey my biggest problem was what to do with my hands after a meal. I was used to lighting a cigarette. Vaping provides whatever it is that calms the nerves.

Nicotine is probably part of it, but I was able to transition down from 24mg to 3mg easily once I decided to do that. I'm a happy guy at 3mg nic and have been at 3mg for several years now.

Yes, we are the test subjects. But given I failed every "accepted" way to stop smoking, what do I have to lose? That's why people volunteer for experimental treatment. And if it does turn out worse, well, I was screwed in the first place, so why worry?

 

[Aus11]

I learned early on to take controversial topics with college professors offline instead of in front of the class. You get fairer grading that way ...

Still, I'd have to have an after class discussion with that professor about vaping vs smoking. Some of them just have agendas that they propagate.

IMO, vaping and smoking are far removed from each other in terms of health risks. We are better off just breathing plain old air, but if vaping takes the cigarettes away from smokers, then it's better just for that reason. In 10 years of media and medical scrutiny there's been no medical proof that it's harmful. That doesn't mean it's safe, but it's a good indicator that there's probably not a hidden gotcha waiting for us.

Im on board with you on that for sure. With 10 years under the community's belt the most serious events weve seen have been basically toppled or are rare in the first place. Nothing directly happened between vaping and "popcorn lung" and that has been resolved as far as I know. And I would say the most serious thing that has happened has been battery explosions, of which im sure most were the result of improper battery care. But that alone is a given for any electronic that utilizes a battery. (Wonder why galaxy notes have been banned off airlines?) But apart from the media hating vaping, I would say the community is going well and staying strong.

 

[stols001]

Dude, I don't argue with professors like that. I *try* to encourage my kid not to, but he's a liberatarian and he likes facts. He actually interrupted another student's "fact based" essay on abortion because the science was all wrong. This was during the heyday of the "fact check" moment for him, I swear that kid would have fact checked my shoe size. When he texted me that, "It just made me so mad AND she was Catholic, mom!" I lectured him on appropriate behaviors and how that other student might have felt even if it was pure BS, he should have at least waited until after class.... LOL, I also told him he better be apologizing to that student and the professor. Fortunately, he already had, and he's too good a writer for her to be able to downgrade him (props to the professor for not doing so, I BELIEVE the professor was *pregnant,* too.)

To be fair, I have a short yell at the Jehovah's witnesses myself who wave inane signs outside the abortion clinic right by my periodontist's office, but that's mostly due to anxiety about my upcoming surgeries each time.... Though I don't personally see how it is any of the JHW business.... And, I hate them visiting the house. They pulled into our driveway one day and I knew it was them, my polite neighbor was gently guiding another carful away, and I ran out of the house barefoot, yelling, "Shoo! Shoo! Get off my property this instant, I don't go visit you at the JW Church or enclave or whatever it's called, so LEAVE!" Neighbor looked amused.

Anna

 

[DaveP]

Dude, I don't argue with professors like that. I *try* to encourage my kid not to, but he's a liberatarian and he likes facts. He actually interrupted another student's "fact based" essay on abortion because the science was all wrong. This was during the heyday of the "fact check" moment for him, I swear that kid would have fact checked my shoe size. When he texted me that, "It just made me so mad AND she was Catholic, mom!" I lectured him on appropriate behaviors and how that other student might have felt even if it was pure BS, he should have at least waited until after class.... LOL, I also told him he better be apologizing to that student and the professor. Fortunately, he already had, and he's too good a writer for her to be able to downgrade him (props to the professor for not doing so, I BELIEVE the professor was *pregnant,* too.)

I was in night classes as a 30 something working on my computer science degree. One night in programming class the teacher was going over what was going to be on the test and how it would be graded. A 20 year old student who was known for belligerence jumped up out of his seat, pointed at the professor, and yelled, "That's Not Fair!!!!".

The professor calmly told him, "Son, life's not fair. These are the rules. You can walk out and drop this class if you don't agree, but if you continue to display outbursts like that, I will walk you down to the office and have you dropped myself and give you the F you deserve for multiple disruptive incidents in my class. Your Choice!"

The kid sat down and we heard nothing else from him for the rest of the quarter!

 

[Smoke_too_much]

F

Dude, I don't argue with professors like that. I *try* to encourage my kid not to, but he's a liberatarian and he likes facts. He actually interrupted another student's "fact based" essay on abortion because the science was all wrong. This was during the heyday of the "fact check" moment for him, I swear that kid would have fact checked my shoe size. When he texted me that, "It just made me so mad AND she was Catholic, mom!" I lectured him on appropriate behaviors and how that other student might have felt even if it was pure BS, he should have at least waited until after class.... LOL, I also told him he better be apologizing to that student and the professor. Fortunately, he already had, and he's too good a writer for her to be able to downgrade him (props to the professor for not doing so, I BELIEVE the professor was *pregnant,* too.)

To be fair, I have a short yell at the Jehovah's witnesses myself who wave inane signs outside the abortion clinic right by my periodontist's office, but that's mostly due to anxiety about my upcoming surgeries each time.... Though I don't personally see how it is any of the JHW business.... And, I hate them visiting the house. They pulled into our driveway one day and I knew it was them, my polite neighbor was gently guiding another carful away, and I ran out of the house barefoot, yelling, "Shoo! Shoo! Get off my property this instant, I don't go visit you at the JW Church or enclave or whatever it's called, so LEAVE!" Neighbor looked amused.

Anna

Funniest run in I've ever had with JW's was way back in university when one Sunday morning my GF and I had just jumped out of the shower and in our towels were on our way back downstairs (in a big shared house) when these two older women came in through the front door. I guess they though it was an apartment building. I had to laugh as they quickly backed back down the stairs and out the door waving Watchtowers at us like they thought it would repel the devil himself.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The professor calmly told him, "Son, life's not fair. These are the rules. You can walk out and drop this class if you don't agree, but if you continue to display outbursts like that, I will walk you down to the office and have you dropped myself and give you the F you deserve for multiple disruptive incidents in my class. Your Choice!"

The kid sat down and we heard nothing else from him for the rest of the quarter!

Been there. Seen/Done that.

LOL

 

[RainSong]

Before diketones there was the food coloring issue.

If you think about it we, as a group, are very inquisitive. I got into vaping just after, or around the time, people were talking about food coloring being an unnecessary additive to eliquid.

We are always looking for the safer(est) way to vape. There is always someone that is willing to take on these issues.

Before the food coloring there was an unsavory character that wasn't careful about how much nic he was actually putting into his liquids. One of our members, Kurt, stepped up to the plate and tested different bottles to see what those nic contents really were. That unsavory character wasn't in business for much longer.

I'm sure there is someone that can remember the name of that company...it's so close to my memory bank. There was a huge thread on it. Damn! So close to remembering...

I've always maintained that we do a remarkable job policing ourselves. And we continue to do so to this day.

We have Mooch that has devoted his time to battery safety. Especially when our knowledgeable members realized that some of these batteries were Not what their packaging said they were. He continues to test every brand that he comes across.

Recently we have Mike that has taken it upon himself to test different devices to see how hot our coils actually get.

Before these two, we have many others that have used their knowledge in different areas to help out our fellow vapers to get the safest products.

Oh, and vendors sure do pay attention to these threads. Wasn't long before liquid makers were pulling the food coloring out of their liquids!

We Get Things Done!

Looking back at all these people and issues they have taken on, I can't help but think that if the government was in charge of vaping, how long would it take them to alert us? Judging by their track record, nothing happens unless people die.

I am blessed to be vaping before government gets their hands in this industry.

Fantastic post. Thank you.

Yes, we are the test subjects. But given I failed every "accepted" way to stop smoking, what do I have to lose? That's why people volunteer for experimental treatment. And if it does turn out worse, well, I was screwed in the first place, so why worry?

I'm happy to step up and be a test subject on this issue. I failed with every approved method also.

Im on board with you on that for sure. With 10 years under the community's belt the most serious events weve seen have been basically toppled or are rare in the first place. Nothing directly happened between vaping and "popcorn lung" and that has been resolved as far as I know. And I would say the most serious thing that has happened has been battery explosions, of which im sure most were the result of improper battery care. But that alone is a given for any electronic that utilizes a battery. (Wonder why galaxy notes have been banned off airlines?) But apart from the media hating vaping, I would say the community is going well and staying strong.

Learning more about vaping has changed the way I handle all my battery powered devices and batteries and how to properly charge them Not to mention I know more about electricity than I ever knew before.

 

[Stubby]

Nice read, I didn't know who he was. Full disclosure, he is the the Science Director of CASSA so that is a paid opinion. Still, I understand the argument he's making, which honestly I agree with even less than the 95% from the RCP. Making a claim of 99% safer based on 10 years of experience, a good chunk of it with different vape gear and juices than are commonly used today is really pushing it. It makes the RCP guesstimate sound extremely conservative. And relying on extrapolation out of the currently limited amount of information out there to come up with a 99% safer thing sound more like statistical magic than a sound conclusion.

First off, being a board members of CASAA is a non-paid position (I had heard a rumor that they are now paying a nominal amount to some high skill board members, but I would guess with the hours put in it would barely reach minimum wage).

I might take what you are saying at least a bit more serious if you actually spelled CASAA correctly (do you know what it stands for?). Of course not hearing of Phillips, who has been an outspoken advocate for THR for longer then vaping has been around doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence you are to well read on THR. I am not trying to attack you, simply pointing out that there may be some gaps in your knowledge.

We can skip over all of that and get to the heart of it.

It is well excepted for those who have studied the issue that smokeless tobacco is about 99% less harmful then cigarettes. If what you are saying is true, that would mean vaping is 4 or 5 times more risky then smokeless tobacco.

Am I getting this right or is there something I missed?

 

[Eskie]

First off, being a board members of CASAA is a non-paid position (I had heard a rumor that they are now paying a nominal amount to some high skill board members, but I would guess with the hours put in it would barely reach minimum wage).

I might take what you are saying at least a bit more serious if you actually spelled CASAA correctly (do you know what it stands for?). Of course not hearing of Phillips, who has been an outspoken advocate for THR for longer then vaping has been around doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence you are to well read on THR. I am not trying to attack you, simply pointing out that there may be some gabs in your knowledge.

We can skip over all of that and get to the heart of it.

It is well excepted for those who have studied the issue that smokeless tobacco is about 99% less harmful then cigarettes. If what you are saying is true, that would mean vaping is 4 or 5 times more risky then smokeless tobacco.

Am I getting this right or is there something I missed?

I didn't realize my typo of CASAA was sufficient to undermine my ability to be taken seriously. But in the interest of moving forward I will try and take you seriously despite my "gabs of knowledge".

As to smokeless tobacco being 99% safer than cigarettes (be great if you could post a link or two to support that number) of what importance does it have to vaping? That's comparing apples to peanuts. Smokeless tobacco is not heated, nor does it contain VG, or any of the food flavorings and sweeteners found in vape juice. I have no opinion on whether vaping is safer, the same, or higher in risk to smokeless tobacco. But in light of my gabs in knowledge, some more info on just what smokeless tobacco you are referring to would help me out, are you talking snus or loose tobacco products.

Oh, and I was referring to Philips position as science director, which, my experience is a compensated position even in non-profits, not a board position. And typically above the minimum wage.

 

[DeAnna2112]

I have to ask but has casaa ever came out with any acknowledgement that there is indeed some harms that have been found with vaping? I don't know because i lost interest in that group along time ago given i never saw any admittance to anything unless it was provaping research. Then when i saw the fda hearings i determined they were all nut jobs and lost even more interest. I don't recall them ever admitting to the diketone concerns or high heat concerns, but then again i don't pay much attention to them or what they do and haven't in a long time, so i could be wrong and they have at some point in time.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I have to ask but has casaa ever came out with any acknowledgement that there is indeed some harms that have been found with vaping? I don't know because i lost interest in that group along time ago given i never saw any admittance to anything unless it was provaping research. Then when i saw the fda hearings i determined they were all nut jobs and lost even more interest. I don't recall them ever admitting to the diketone concerns or high heat concerns, but then again i don't pay much attention to them or what they do and haven't in a long time, so i could be wrong and they have at some point in time.

I believe CASAA is more for vendor/manufacturers, than for vapers. Does it have any achievements?

 

[zoiDman]

I believe CASAA is more for vendor/manufacturers, than for vapers. Does it have any achievements?

I always viewed CASAA as more of an Advocacy Information Conduit.

They put what is going on out there, and it is up to Us (Vaper's, Retailers, OEM's) to take some Action about it.