Question about Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl

[cramptholomew]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but I'm trying to get something straight...

I've been DIYing for about 6 months now, and it seems that some of the flavors I have grown like to are now listed as containing Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl. This seems to be of concern, because Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl MAY contain trace amounts of Diacetyl? From reading Perfumer's Apprentice, what I've gathered is that they DO use Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl in their flavors as a replcaement for diacetyl. BUT, even though they don't use diacetyl, there is the concern that, perhaps, a small percentage of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl MAY contain diacetyl from the manufacturing process. Do I have this straight in my mind, or is there something I'm missing?

 

[HeadInClouds]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but I'm trying to get something straight...

I've been DIYing for about 6 months now, and it seems that some of the flavors I have grown like to are now listed as containing Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl. This seems to be of concern, because Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl MAY contain trace amounts of Diacetyl? From reading Perfumer's Apprentice, what I've gathered is that they DO use Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl in their flavors as a replcaement for diacetyl. BUT, even though they don't use diacetyl, there is the concern that, perhaps, a small percentage of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl MAY contain diacetyl from the manufacturing process. Do I have this straight in my mind, or is there something I'm missing?

The latest studies on these diacetyl substitutes were from late 2013, so it's not beating a dead horse yet.

Here's the basic problem. These two diacetyl substitutes have a very similar molecular structure to diacetyl. All of them are diketones (basic chemistry jargon for the way the Oxygen and Carbon atoms are arranged, basically). The study showed that the substitutes have equally harmful effects when inhaled, or worse. (In other words, whether or not the substitutes decompose to produce diacetyl is actually irrelevant, because they are at least equally harmful as-is).

Regarding the word, 'trace' - OSHA has recommended maximum exposure limits in the parts per billions. That means that 'trace' amounts of <1% or <0.1% are still far beyond that, even if you're making recipes with just 1% of a flavoring with <0.1% 'trace' amount of these chemicals.

 

[cramptholomew]

AAAAAH, OK. Crap. I like those flavors though!!! Phooey!!!

There are a BUNCH of TFA flavors that are marked as containing these chemicals that are still being sold by DIY sites. Should they be advised?

I guess it comes down to: it's such a small percentage of flavoring, that it may not be very harmful, if at all, but WE DON'T KNOW THAT FOR A FACT... yet. Ugh.

 

[kabalm18]

AAAAAH, OK. Crap. I like those flavors though!!! Phooey!!!

There are a BUNCH of TFA flavors that are marked as containing these chemicals that are still being sold by DIY sites. Should they be advised?

I guess it comes down to: it's such a small percentage of flavoring, that it may not be very harmful, if at all, but WE DON'T KNOW THAT FOR A FACT... yet. Ugh.

Yep...Basically all of my loved TFA flavors have the custard notes, sucks. I have switched to FlavourArt for most flavors. I will use up what I have left of TFA and probably continue buying some of the fruit flavors from them. It just seems like they add a new flavor as containing these harmful ingredients every week.

 

[cramptholomew]

Yep...Basically all of my loved TFA flavors have the custard notes, sucks. I have switched to FlavourArt for most flavors. I will use up what I have left of TFA and probably continue buying some of the fruit flavors from them. It just seems like they add a new flavor as containing these harmful ingredients every week.

Do you have any idea what FA flavor might replace an "infected" TFA flavor?
I mix with Graham Cracker, sweet cream, English Toffee a lot...

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Do you have any idea what FA flavor might replace an "infected" TFA flavor?
I mix with Graham Cracker, sweet cream, English Toffee a lot...

I've tried pretty much everything TFA has to offer and nearly all that FA has to offer and going back over the flavors, there's really no similarities between the two. FA's Cookie is a good flavor with a lot of mixing potential, so it could be used in place of Graham Cracker, but they're two entirely different flavors. In most of the blends, I started with 1% and worked my way up as needed. Anything over 5% seemed to take over and dominate the entire blend.

Cream wise, Fresh Cream is a good light cream that's semi-sweet. It's more comparable to TFA's Whipped Cream, but I personally like it much better. Catalan Cream is more of a spiced cream whereas the Vienna Cream is more of a tangy cream. None of them have the deeper notes that TFA's Sweet Cream has though, which most likely comes from the Acetoin. Since FA doesn't use any of the three chemicals in their e-cig flavoring, it's going to be hard to get an exact replica, or realistically, one that's extremely close because there's a night and day difference between a flavor that has one of the three chemicals and one that doesn't.

I can fully recommend the Fresh Cream, Vienna Cream, Cookie and if you're a spiced cream type person, the Catalan Cream. Their meringue and marshmallow flavors aren't bad either, just for some added sweetness or flavor back notes.

 

[cramptholomew]

I've tried pretty much everything TFA has to offer and nearly all that FA has to offer and going back over the flavors, there's really no similarities between the two. FA's Cookie is a good flavor with a lot of mixing potential, so it could be used in place of Graham Cracker, but they're two entirely different flavors. In most of the blends, I started with 1% and worked my way up as needed. Anything over 5% seemed to take over and dominate the entire blend.

Cream wise, Fresh Cream is a good light cream that's semi-sweet. It's more comparable to TFA's Whipped Cream, but I personally like it much better. Catalan Cream is more of a spiced cream whereas the Vienna Cream is more of a tangy cream. None of them have the deeper notes that TFA's Sweet Cream has though, which most likely comes from the Acetoin. Since FA doesn't use any of the three chemicals in their e-cig flavoring, it's going to be hard to get an exact replica, or realistically, one that's extremely close because there's a night and day difference between a flavor that has one of the three chemicals and one that doesn't.

I can fully recommend the Fresh Cream, Vienna Cream, Cookie and if you're a spiced cream type person, the Catalan Cream. Their meringue and marshmallow flavors aren't bad either, just for some added sweetness or flavor back notes.

Thank you. I figured as much. I just ordered a bunch of 3ml FA flavors from Purevapes - of them, all the creams, the cookie, the hazelnut, marshmallow, caramel, and nut mix. I'm hoping that a combination of some of these will approximate the TFA flavors. My ADV is 1/4 TFA Graham cracker, so I'm looking at a renovation there, which sucks. BUT, at least it's only a fraction of the whole mix. Oh well. Maybe it will be even better!

EDIT: I bought the FA marshmallow too, since TFA marshmallow is now listed as "infected", and marshmallow is in another one of my almost ADVs.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Thank you. I figured as much. I just ordered a bunch of 3ml FA flavors from Purevapes - of them, all the creams, the cookie, the hazelnut, marshmallow, caramel, and nut mix.

A bunch of us have been talking about and using FA flavors over here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...pure-vapes-has-3ml-flavourart-flavorings.html

 

[cramptholomew]

A question I've been pondering today...

Why would they replace diacetyl, because of its inhalation risks, with chemicals that have the same risk? Wouldn't they have tested actetoin, etc., to see if they contribute to the same complications?

 

[Frenchfry1942]

Thank-you Head. There is a concerted effort that has a LOT of money behind it to make e-cigs look dangerous. Quality ejuice is not what the big opponents make out to be. Nothing is perfect, but it sure is a lot better than leaf tobacco.

Again, thank-you.

 

[Turrican]

what is the health risk from diacetyl?

 

[cramptholomew]

"Popcorn Lung", or Bronchiolitis obliterans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Heisenberg63]

So what makes you think that FlavourArt has some magical ingredient that allows them to produce custard notes with none of the chemicals that TFA is forthright in disclosing? The fact is that TFA is proactive about informing people about what is in their flavors. Other flavor manufacturers, not so much. You must also remember that a manufacturer can claim no diacetyl as long as the ppm is below a certain ppm. It does not mean that it isn't there. Just like my packet of stevia that says 0 calories but when you read the fine print it actually has 4 calories but the FDA allows them to say zero. Flavourart is not under FDA jurisdiction and who knows what their standards are? It is doubtful that they are better than US standards.
There is a lot of hype and misinformation in this area. Do your research and read carefully.

 

[IceCreamMan]

So what makes you think that FlavourArt has some magical ingredient that allows them to produce custard notes with none of the chemicals that TFA is forthright in disclosing? The fact is that TFA is proactive about informing people about what is in their flavors. Other flavor manufacturers, not so much. You must also remember that a manufacturer can claim no diacetyl as long as the ppm is below a certain ppm. It does not mean that it isn't there. Just like my packet of stevia that says 0 calories but when you read the fine print it actually has 4 calories but the FDA allows them to say zero. Flavourart is not under FDA jurisdiction and who knows what their standards are? It is doubtful that they are better than US standards.
There is a lot of hype and misinformation in this area. Do your research and read carefully.

TFA is making a responsible effort to disclose the ingredients of their flavors but still do not come close to the testing FA is undertaking...

ClearStream by FlavourArt | ClearStream by FlavourArt

And at this point neither flavoring is being regulated or tested by the FDA or any set industry standards so that is kind of a moot point.

 

[Sdh]

A question I've been pondering today...

Why would they replace diacetyl, because of its inhalation risks, with chemicals that have the same risk? Wouldn't they have tested actetoin, etc., to see if they contribute to the same complications?

I am hoping new standards (testing) with flavors/e-liquid will be started soon. Dr. Farsalinos stated on VP he will share his results soon.


https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/what-does-the-law-say-5

 

[we2rcool]

So what makes you think that FlavourArt has some magical ingredient that allows them to produce custard notes with none of the chemicals that TFA is forthright in disclosing? The fact is that TFA is proactive about informing people about what is in their flavors. Other flavor manufacturers, not so much. You must also remember that a manufacturer can claim no diacetyl as long as the ppm is below a certain ppm. It does not mean that it isn't there. Just like my packet of stevia that says 0 calories but when you read the fine print it actually has 4 calories but the FDA allows them to say zero. Flavourart is not under FDA jurisdiction and who knows what their standards are? It is doubtful that they are better than US standards.
There is a lot of hype and misinformation in this area. Do your research and read carefully.

Here's some "not hype" for starters: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document (unless you want to argue with the CDC & NIOSH)

"FDA jurisdiction" doesn't cover ANY flavors for inhalation; only flavors for food. And diacetyl, acetoin & acetyl propionyl are all approved (under GRAS) for food use.

Read the Clear Stream information on the FA site. They started removing the 'inhalation risk chemicals' back in 2010 or before, and totally reformulated the to create an E-Cigarette Line that is free of them. Some flavors in the Kitchen Magic line still contain them, but those are clearly identified in the description.


On the TFA site (Flavorist's Corner) one can learn how to detect the 'inhalation risk' chemicals by taste and by smell (many people can taste & smell them without doing the comparisons that TFA recommends); some people experience various levels of respiratory irritation when vaping them.

One cannot taste or smell these chemicals in FA's E-Cigarette line - and those of us that experience varying levels of irritation with the flavors containing them, do not experience that irritation with the FA line.

Question for you:

On your site, Mushroomvapes.com Store - Mushroomvapes.com it appears you are selling many juices that typically contain varying levels of chemicals that are known inhalation risks.

--Do you know whether or not these chemicals are in the flavors used in your juices?
--If yes, do you know what percentages or how many ppb are in the final juices?
--If yes, do you disclose this information to your buyers so they have the opportunity to make an informed choice?
--If no, why not?

 

[we2rcool]

"Popcorn Lung", or Bronchiolitis obliterans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, that would be the 'end result'...but all manner of inflammation, cell/tissue damage and respiratory distress are encountered along the way to 'popcorn lung' - along with any health issues that may be worsened by compromised breathing (particularly heart & circulatory compromise).

Diacetyl crosses the blood brain barrier and is associated with neurological toxicity & Alzheimers The butter flavorant, diacetyl, exacerbates... [Chem Res Toxicol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

Here's a layman's explanation of the study above (just googled/found it - not familiar with the site - but am familiar with enough medical terminology to verify that it's a decent explanation):

Researchers have uncovered a potential link between diacetyl, the flavoring ingredient that produces the buttery flavor of microwave popcorn, and Alzheimer’s disease. Diacetyl already has been associated with potentially fatal lung disease.

Occupational exposure to diacetyl among workers in microwave popcorn and food-flavoring factories has been linked with respiratory problems and debilitating lung disease. This new study found evidence that diacetyl could intensify the damaging effects of an abnormal brain protein linked to Alzheimer’s disease.

Robert Vince and colleagues Swati More and Ashish Vartak realized that diacetyl has an architecture similar to a substance that makes beta-amyloid proteins clump together in the brain, with clumping being a hallmark of Alzheimer’s disease. The studied whether diacetyl increased the level of beta-amyloid clumping and found that it did.

At real-world occupational exposure levels, diacetyl also enhanced beta-amyloid’s toxic effects on nerve cells growing in the laboratory. Other lab experiments showed that diacetyl easily penetrated the so-called “blood-brain barrier,” which keeps many harmful substances from entering the brain. DA also stopped a protective protein called glyoxalase I from safeguarding nerve cells.

“In light of the chronic exposure of industry workers to diacetyl, this study raises the troubling possibility of long-term neurological toxicity mediated by diacetyl,” explained the researchers.

In recent years, OSHA has recognized the potential hazards of occupational diacetyl exposure and has expressed intent to introduce a diacetyl standard. In 2009, Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis said, “I am alarmed that workers exposed to food flavorings containing diacetyl may continue to be at risk of developing a potentially fatal lung disease … These deaths are preventable, and it is imperative that the Labor Department move quickly to address exposure to food flavorings containing diacetyl.”

The study appears in the ACS journal Chemical Research in Toxicology. The authors acknowledge funding from the Center for Drug Design (CDD) research endowment funds at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.

 

[we2rcool]

AAAAAH, OK. Crap. I like those flavors though!!! Phooey!!!

There are a BUNCH of TFA flavors that are marked as containing these chemicals that are still being sold by DIY sites. Should they be advised?

I guess it comes down to: it's such a small percentage of flavoring, that it may not be very harmful, if at all, but WE DON'T KNOW THAT FOR A FACT... yet. Ugh.

And we can safely assume those same flavors (that TFA has identified & labeled) produced by other manufacturer's ALSO contain them.

What we know for a fact is that the NIOSH recommendations for worker safety (for nose inhalation in open air, not direct lung inhaltion by vaping) is 8-25ppb. A flavoring that has <.5% used at 3-5% in a juice contains many times that recommendation.

 

[we2rcool]

A question I've been pondering today...

Why would they replace diacetyl, because of its inhalation risks, with chemicals that have the same risk? Wouldn't they have tested actetoin, etc., to see if they contribute to the same complications?

Because almost all manufacturered 'flavors' are technically manufactured & approved for food use - so everything is "FDA approved". That they're raking in 'collective millions' from vapers (when they don't claim them to be safe for vaping), is not something they consider to be their problem...apparently.

Like Linda at TFA says here Perfumer's Apprentice (using Vanilla Custard as an example): Our vanilla custard is a good example. Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl)

So basically, to create these natural flavors with chemicals, certain chemicals are required. It's our guess that since "diacetyl proper" is the big-bad-media-villain, many manufacturer's took it out and reformulated with acetoin, acetyl propionyl, or both.

 

[PaulaProc]

I'm afraid and I don't know how to approach the person that is scaring me. She is a new vaper of less than 3 weeks. She is now making nicotine juices and selling them. I questioned her some but she says she knows what she's doing. I highly doubt she does but, I could be wrong. I've known her for a long time on facebook. We have an up and down history of banging heads together. I want to believe she is now into the juice making for the 'good' and not for the money, but...

I told her I won't question her on her facebook posts anymore. Now, do I look the other way or what?

I tossed in the the dairy, creamy flavors of diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl, and she basically laughed at my concern.
Her comment,
~~~
"LOL, i just told you ive been working in a chemical comany and ship it, watch them make it for 15 yrs

chemicals you cannot even pronounce..

thats for your concern, Im good.

you know so much and can produce a better juice, do it, why not"
~~

I also feel, she will be targeting vapers who are clueless, like so many are.

Am I just skeptical, paranoid or should I share my concern with others?