Questions About 18650 Batteries

[jtphenom]

Hi folks,

So I just ordered a VAMO (YAAAAYY), a charger, and a couple of the IMR 18650 batteries. Now I don't understand much about electronics, especially how batteries work. But from what I do understand, unprotected means that they can be undercharged, overcharged, and generally used in such a way as to make them much more dangerous than your average Duracell.

So what do I need to do to make absolutely sure that I don't have my VAMO, the battery, and/or the charger I put it in blow up or something?

FYI, I bought my VAMO from exhalevapors.com. The batteries I bought are made by Joye. Do they generally make good batteries? The charger was way overpriced: about $20 where it's sold elsewhere for about $10. :-/

Finally, where is the best place to buy high-quality 18650s?

Thanks!!
James T.

 

[Kanj.nguyen]

Amazon, Panasonic

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

A "protected" Li-Ion has a small electronic circuit integrated into the cell packaging. It protects against common dangers, such as overcharge, overdischarge, short-circuit (overcurrent), and temperature. These cells are safer to use, both individually and in batteries. They are less likely to ignite and cause personal or property damage, a phenomenon known as "venting with flame." Unprotected cells do not have this protection circuit, so they can have more capacity and current capability than protected cells.
Best to buy from a reputable vendor cuz lottsa knockoffs out there.
Some more detailed info:
http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/battery protection UK.html

 

[millwright.mike]

I too just started using 18650's that I got with my provari and have been watching them like a hawk while charging due to all of the horror stories I've read online.

 

[jtphenom]

I don't understand why the things I've read say you have to use unprotected batteries in the device if they are so dangerous... ??

I also thought that the chargers they make for these batteries have some sort of feature where they detect that a battery is fully charged and then stop charging the battery... ??

 

[wmacy1028]

Only use protected IMR Batteries, if the device calls for "unprotected" dont use it. Even if there is only a 1% chance it could possibly on the right day blow up in your face.. why take that chance. Honestly i dont know if that actually could happen, however.. like a trained monkey.. i will just listen to others and only use protected.

 

[pdxrex]

Get 2 18350's. I get 30% better battery life out of 2 18350 800mAh's as opposed to 1 18650 2250mAh battery on my VAMO.

 

[jtphenom]

Get 2 18350's. I get 30% better battery life out of 2 18350 800mAh's as opposed to 1 18650 2250mAh battery on my VAMO.

I don't believe that is pertinent to this discussion, friend. We're talking about safety. The VAMO calls for IMR batteries, whether they are 18650s or 18350s.

 

[Lisa66]

jtphenom, this link may help explain: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/129569-rechargeable-batteries.html

Also, pretty much anything you might want to know about any kind of battery can be found here: Battery Information Table of Contents, Basic to Advanced

 

[Rafier]

If you want to know more about batteries check here: Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University

As a RC hobby person, the protection can be built into the battery or the charger. The chargers are much more expensive than the inexpensive board they put on the battery.

 

[Lisa66]

I too just started using 18650's that I got with my provari and have been watching them like a hawk while charging due to all of the horror stories I've read online.

With the Provari the unit itself provides monitoring of overcharge, overheating, etc. so a protected battery is not needed and Provape doesn't recommend it. You're fine.

Edit: the unit will shut down under those conditions.

 

[Baditude]

There seems to be some confusion here.

As Vapoor stated above, "protected" Li-Ion batteries have an added circuitry, not unlike a fuse, to help guard against a short. However, this protection is not as effective as the built-in electronic circuitry in the modern variable voltage/variable wattage devices. I've had a protected battery vent in a mod when the fire switch was unknowingly compressed in a pants pocket. This was my user error. This example just shows that you should always use common sense and practice battery safety. Read up on batteries, these pack a punch and are not to be regarded lightly.

If your device doesn't have a power on/power off switch, either remove the battery or disconnect the juice delivery device if you are going to put it in a pocket, or any situation where the fire button could accidentally be turned on.

IMR, or high drain batteries are also known as "safer chemistry" batteries. Their makeup does not require the additional protection that the Li-Ions do. These are much safer batteries than the Li-Ions, and they are the ones generally recommended for use in the VV/VW devices because they are designed for the boost circuitry that they use. There is no such thing as a protected IMR battery, unless you are including the protective circuitry of the VV/VW device it is powering.

You can use IMR batteries in both VV/VW devices and mechanical fixed voltage devices. They are generally regarded as a safer choice than the protected Li-Ion batteries. I now use AW IMR batteries in both my VV PV's and mechanical PV's.

 

[jtphenom]

Baditude, thank you for that post. There has, indeed, been some confusion, and it's partly my fault. The VAMO calls for IMR (which I knew was unprotected, but also knew it had "safer chemistry"). And with the VAMO, as you probably know, you don't charge the battery inside the device, but instead take it out and put it in the charger.

My main concern was about charging. Batitude, with IMRs, do you think it's safe to charge them overnight? I don't know if, or how to tell if, the charger I got, automatically stops charging when the battery if fully charged. I also don't know enough about IMR batteries to know if it even matters.

 

[Jimmyhat]

just get some AW IMR batteries from rtdvapor.com they have the best prices that I have seen. You can use protected or unprotected. I use unprotected AW IMR's and have not had any issues. If you want the protected get them rtd has them too but I would stick with AW's

 

[DaveP]

Protection is an added component added to lithium ion batteries inside the sleeve that covers them. The Li-ion cell contains no protection unless the protection circuit (looks like a lozenge) is added. It's added because Li-ion batteries have a tendency to go into something called "thermal runaway" when they are overstressed or subjected to a dead short. The protection circuit is like a dime sized fuse shape like a Tums tablet.

IMR batteries use a chemistry called LiMn (lithium manganese). LiMn batteries are deep cycle batteries that can provide high current for short periods without going into thermal runaway. IMR batteries have been tested to direct short resulting in high temps up to 500 degrees without pressurizing or venting. They don't require protection circuits for that reason. IMR is safer.

Dual battery mods are generally the ones that have resulted in venting, flaming, and explosion. Single battery mods are much safer. If you install two batteries in a mod and one is charged at a lower level than the other, the two will attempt to drain current from the higher charged battery to the lower charged battery, similar to two unevenly filled tanks of water connected by a hose. This happens are a high rate and Li-ion batteries don't like and can't withstand rapid charge rates. Heat is produced and failure usually occurs. Using a dual battery mod is playing with fire. One day you might install a charged battery with a dead battery by mistake. When you press the button, the two try to equalize and venting and hissing starts. I wouldn't do it. You are depending on the protection circuit to stop it once it starts. That might not happen.

If you use a mechanical mod, make sure it employs a sacrificial spring in the battery cap. The spring will sag on high heat from high current load or a short and cause the battery to move away from the contacts in the mod. It's a good way to provide extra protection if the internal protection circuitry doesn't work quickly enough. That said, smart mods are good at detecting shorts and high current. The spring is extra backup protection. You can never have enough fault protection.

I agree that Battery University is the best place to read up.
http://batteryuniversity.com/

 

[KeithB]

There seems to be a little confusion her regarding protected vs unprotected batteries here. As a rule IMR (LiMn) batteries are not protected because they are a safer chemistry and shouldn't "vent with flames". These are the batteries that are recommended for the VAMO. ICR (LiCO) can be found in both protected and unprotected and should never be used for vaping in their unproctected version. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule with some mods that have their own protection circuitry but it's best to avoid unprotected LiCO s entirely.

Get a multimeter to test your batteries when they come of the charger and you'll know if they're overcharged or not. A good charger is recommended as well; Xtar and Pila are well spoken of. I use an Ultrafire WF-188 which I've been led to believe is about as far down on the budget ladder that you should go and still be reasonably safe.

A mod like the VAMO should cut off before the voltage drops too low. A multimeter can help confirm this as well.

No one ever recommends charging batteries overnight or unattended. I've been doing it for about a year with no problems but I'm not going to recommend it either. You can get a charging bag for a little peace of mind if you like.

I'll also recommend a plastic battery box for toting around your spare batteries. You don't want to carry them around loose in your pocket where they might short out on keys or change.

jtphenom
Also, pretty much anything you might want to know about any kind of battery can be found here: Battery Information Table of Contents, Basic to Advanced

Excellent advice. Sure, I had to read it several times over the course of a week to fully digest it but I feel it should be required reading for anyone using lithium batteries.

My latest battery purchase was from RTDvapor but I've also ordered from SuperT as well. I had no problems with either vendor. I usually go with who has what I want in stock.

 

[tj99959]

With Li Ion you need protection. The best protection when charging is a LiPo bag.
Amazon.com: Dynamite Li-Po Charge Protection Bag, Small DYN1400: Toys & Games
This is what can happen, and it can burn your house down if not contained.
Lithium Ion Battery Explosion - YouTube

Li Mn (IMR) can also vent, but not with the volatility of Li Ion.

Even with IMR batteries, if the PV doesn't provide short protection ... I do!
ElectronicStix.Com · ShortStop fuse by Holocron Labs

 

[Baditude]

The last couple posts after mine all provided accurate information and advice.

If you use one of the higher quality chargers, such as the Pila or top of the line Xtar chargers, they are more advanced and are said to cut/ reduce their charge to the battery after full charge to a "trickle". These higher quality charges utilize a more complex charging algorhythm that allows faster charging times and allegedly are also safer, so worth the few extra bucks you'll pay over the less expensive chargers.

It can be normal for a battery to feel "warm" coming fresh off of a charger, but never "hot". It is strongly recommended to test the voltage of batteries with a multimeter or voltmeter to insure batteries are within normal ranges. A fully charged battery should be around 4.1-4.2v. A discharged battery should be no less than 3.2 volts.
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If you are going to be carrying a spare battery with you, do not put it in a pants pocket or purse with loose change or other metal devices; keep it in one of these protective plastic battery cases. Not necessary, but not a bad idea either, are the safe charging bags for charging your batteries in (peace of mind is a good thing).

http://www.rtdvapor.com/online-store/accessories/battery-cases
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Below is the 14500 Trustfire "protected" battery that went into thermal runaway in a mechanical BB. Notice that the ends have blown out and that the plastic casing was melted from the extreme heat.



As I said in the previous post, I prefer to use the safer chemistry batteries. I currently use genuine AW brand IMR batteries in both my mechanical and VV PV's. I would strongly recommend NOT using the "no name" or brandless batteries in any personal vaporizer due to questionable quality. I recommend using genuine brand name batteries from trusted vendors such as RTD and Super T. I have read of knockoff's of popular brand name batteries, hense buying from trusted vendors if suggested.

 

[DaveP]

Yes, all batteries can fail and shouldn't be left unattended while charging. All it takes for a meltdown is a charger with a bad component or a defective battery. IMR (LiMn) is safer but still should be monitored and stored in a plastic box designed for batteries.

There's been more than a few instances where batteries were dropped into a purse or glove box and came in contact with metal objects that presented a short to both terminals. Smoke and sometimes fire and noxious fumes are the result. You want to be around when and if that happens so that you can rake it out of the car or dump your purse. A charging bag is a good idea and proper storage of charged batteries is crucial.

Buy some plastic snap cases to store batteries safely.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Baditude, thank you for that post. There has, indeed, been some confusion, and it's partly my fault. The VAMO calls for IMR (which I knew was unprotected, but also knew it had "safer chemistry". And with the VAMO, as you probably know, you don't charge the battery inside the device, but instead take it out and put it in the charger.

My main concern was about charging. Batitude, with IMRs, do you think it's safe to charge them overnight? I don't know if, or how to tell if, the charger I got, automatically stops charging when the battery if fully charged. I also don't know enough about IMR batteries to know if it even matters.

I never leave my batts charging unattended. 8? months ago I had an Protected 18650 on a cheap TR-01 charger. I noticed it was taking longer to charge. Touched battery and it was very warm. Removed batt and tested and it was fully charged. Threw both the batt and charger out and bought an XTAR charger. If you wanted you could always guesstimate the charge time and hook the charger up to a timer BUT realize there are electronics within the charger that would drain the batt even if the charger was disconnected. I just upgraded to a quality cheaper and bought extra batts.