I'm more of a tube guy or maybe a nice tesseract. Nice off-ramp sign. You must be from SoCal.
Questions about Clone Quality and Ethics - Help a vet ;-)
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All of those are options. Without data, however, we don't know. My personal story is that had all mech mods been $200, then I probably would have dismissed mech mods, and bought an mvp. Now that I have two clones, I might (huge might!) buy an original one of these days.
How many people who started off with clones move on to an original? How many people who own an original go on to buy clones instead of another original? How many people who now own an original decided on a mech mod because the product itself was popular: someone recommended it to them, or they read about it here, etc.?
I don't think the clone/original markets are two completely separate things; it's all a guess without data, however.
How many people who started off with clones move on to an original? How many people who own an original go on to buy clones instead of another original? How many people who now own an original decided on a mech mod because the product itself was popular: someone recommended it to them, or they read about it here, etc.?
I don't think the clone/original markets are two completely separate things; it's all a guess without data, however.
I say that the publicly available data, available units from retailers or modders, suggests that modders aren't suffering a bit. THEY ARE ALMOST ALWAYS OUT OF STOCK EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK which means that the ones that are made and put in to retail channels are all being sold.
I would also argue that clones not only create a demand for originals, but that clones are, in large part, responsible for supporting the larger vaping market space. Without clones, many people wouldn't be vaping because lesser methods are simply not satisfying enough to many people, and it's likely those people would still be burning leaves instead because originals are either out of their budget or made of inobtanium (or both).
If I still had to rely on digi-cigs, I would be smoking cigarettes instead of vaping. It was the availability of egos and then MODs which helped me to completely quit smoking because they were able to give me an experience I was looking for. Surely there are many people in the same boat, and most of those people buy clones. Those same people also support the exploding juice market (I know I use WAY more juice than someone who solely uses an ego battery and a Protank mini), battery market, and are responsible for the surge in B&M stores which provide good jobs . . .
I buy both, though I have never purchased a clone of an original that I own, nor have I purchased an original of a clone that I own. That said, I would likely purchase an original Tree of Life if I could get one. Except that I can't. I guess it's a good thing that the clone is virtually identical to the original in every way (I have examined both the clone and the original down to the very last piece), except that the clone includes an 18650 tube, and the with the original an 18650 tube is a supplementary purchase AFTER the initial $190 for the original package which only includes 18350 and 18500 tubes.
I was wondering about that, as I was looking into tube format copper mods. There's a mod called "Anatolian," which appeals to me as I grew up in Istanbul.
idk if I'll buy it, but without clones, I wouldn't have gotten into the product enough to discover the Nemesis, much less the Anatolian.
I recently ordered a SWEET looking copper original MOD.
The Akuma by GP Customs.
And you're absolutely right. Had I not got in to clones, I would never even know about the most popular originals, much less small runs by people in distant lands.
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Yup, Bakersfield CA. The pic is a Photoshopped pic of my daughter and I at Disneyland, transplanted to Zzyzx Road. I try to take a picture of the sign every time I go to Vegas.
OEM's, Chinese clone manufactures, and e-cig dealers are not publicly traded companies who disclose financials and sales. There is no imperial data to be had.
Instead we have to use common sense.
OEM's are playing more and more games with limited editions, exclusives, minimum advertised prices, and making customers jump through hoops to even get ahold of one of their pieces. Also, prices are only getting higher and higher. If they were hurting from the clones, they would be in a race to the bottom in terms of pricing.
Clone manufactures are in a race to be the first to the market with a clone of a model, in a few instances even beating the original to market! If the original mod was not popular they wouldn't be in such a fever pitch to do that. In some cases the clone manufactures even improve on the original design, most notably adding glass to the Squape, fixing the locking switches on the Hades and Caravela's, better finish on the copper Stingray that does not flake off as easily, etc...
Right now, everyone involved is fat, full, and happy. The OEM's can't make enough to keep up with the demand, the clone manufactures are even having issues with that too in a lot of cases. Best of all, we as consumers have options beyond trying to source a grail, that even if located, requires a king's ransom.
This is the golden era of our hobby, enjoy it. It will all be downhill from here.
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This is exactly right. Economics is pretty simple when you don't try and complicate it. Supply and demand for a product dictates price. Originals are still priced at a premium despite the onslaught of clones, and there doesn't seem to be any signs that originals are dropping their prices, which means that the demand for those products is still strong. Add in to the equation the supply for originals is low, and you have a spot in the market where you can keep prices right where they are because your business model isn't being hurt.
Agreed. You can get whatever hardware you can find. Once the government gets their greedy hands on the industry and the exclusivity to decide what is okay for us to use under the color of law, you can kiss the kind of buffet we have goodbye.
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I am one that only buys originals..other than my Russian 91%, which I think forced Kayfun to improve, and has excellent quality.
However, I don't try to force my opinion on anyone one way or the other, but I do like to see people that buy clones at least admit what they are doing...buying a counterfeit.
In reality, for most in the west, the price of an original clone can be rather easily managed.
Especially when you take into account how much you spent smoking.
Throw in the fact that this hobby is one of the few that most can afford the top end equipment, well, why not buy originals?
There is something to be said for holding and using something that is hard to find, good quality, and beautiful as well.....and you have avoided any possible moral implications
However, I don't try to force my opinion on anyone one way or the other, but I do like to see people that buy clones at least admit what they are doing...buying a counterfeit.
In reality, for most in the west, the price of an original clone can be rather easily managed.
Especially when you take into account how much you spent smoking.
Throw in the fact that this hobby is one of the few that most can afford the top end equipment, well, why not buy originals?
There is something to be said for holding and using something that is hard to find, good quality, and beautiful as well.....and you have avoided any possible moral implications
I am one that only buys originals..other than my Russian 91%, which I think forced Kayfun to improve, and has excellent quality.
However, I don't try to force my opinion on anyone one way or the other, but I do like to see people that buy clones at least admit what they are doing...buying a counterfeit.
In reality, for most in the west, the price of an original clone can be rather easily managed.
Especially when you take into account how much you spent smoking.
Throw in the fact that this hobby is one of the few that most can afford the top end equipment, well, why not buy originals?
There is something to be said for holding and using something that is hard to find, good quality, and beautiful as well.....and you have avoided any possible moral implications
There is a difference between a clone and a counterfeit. A counterfeit is being sold as the original.
And there is also something to be said about holding nothing because it's hard to find or out of the budget. And as I, and many others, see it, there are no moral implications to buying clones so long as they aren't being passed off as originals.
Tubb, you have express you lack of that particular moral stance many times.
I said nothing about yours....why bring up my morals?
And many seem to agree with me, as the prices of originals are holding up well.
If the mod that is being copied has somewhere on it the label of "clone" or "reproduction" that is fine. Just like a reproduction of a painting.
However, most don't. Some even copy serial numbers...and that is counterfeiting. The act of openly selling them doesn't change that.
You aren't even interested in debate, you just want to push your point of view, so...enjoy your vape, and peace
I said nothing about yours....why bring up my morals?
And many seem to agree with me, as the prices of originals are holding up well.
If the mod that is being copied has somewhere on it the label of "clone" or "reproduction" that is fine. Just like a reproduction of a painting.
However, most don't. Some even copy serial numbers...and that is counterfeiting. The act of openly selling them doesn't change that.
You aren't even interested in debate, you just want to push your point of view, so...enjoy your vape, and peace
There's no empirical data either. Imperial data must be data from Great Britain. I'm sorry, I know that's a cheap shot, but I just couldn't help myself.
Tubb, you have express you lack of that particular moral stance many times.
I said nothing about yours....why bring up my morals?
And many seem to agree with me, as the prices of originals are holding up well.
If the mod that is being copied has somewhere on it the label of "clone" or "reproduction" that is fine. Just like a reproduction of a painting.
However, most don't. Some even copy serial numbers...and that is counterfeiting. The act of openly selling them doesn't change that.
You aren't even interested in debate, you just want to push your point of view, so...enjoy your vape, and peace
I didn't bring up your morals. You brought up mine when you wrote "There is something to be said for holding and using something that is hard to find, good quality, and beautiful as well.....and you have avoided any possible moral implications."
And even then I didn't bring up your sense of morality other than to state that not everyone agrees with what you, and many others, see as the only moral stance that is ethical.
And I don't have a "lack of that particular moral sense." I reject it, and with plenty of intellectual backing.
"Intellectual property" is something I've thought quite a lot about in many contexts. It isn't that I "lack" a particular moral sensibility, I simply have a different moral sensibility about what intellectual property is and should be.
So long as they aren't being passed off as originals, clone manufacturers are not counterfeiting. A Stingray clone that comes is in Infinite/Hcigar/ToBeCo can't be described as a counterfeit no matter how close to the original it may be. Clone manufacturers are competing against other clone manufacturers, not original modders. Clone manufacturers depend on original modders. Their entire business model is predicated on making a cheaper copy. If they were to put original modders out of business, their business model would fail quickly.
Either way, this is a pissing match I don't particularly care to get in to again, so Imma quit now.
There's no empirical data either. Imperial data must be data from Great Britain. I'm sorry, I know that's a cheap shot, but I just couldn't help myself.
Imperial data is from The Empire. Senator Palpatine introduced it in lieu of empirical data.
That said, the best data we have to go by is existing stock of original MODs at the places that sell them and look at the models that have clones made. Are they perpetually in stock and/or on sale? Or are they virtually dry of supply?
To the OP:
As for quality of clones, I can't personally say.
BUT
I can personally say that many of the posters talking about how great clones are, are on other threads talking about how they fixed problems such as crunchy buttons.
I can also personally say that I've yet to have a problem out of my originals. There are originals with problems, however. Just research carefully.
And good luck whichever way you decide
As for quality of clones, I can't personally say.
BUT
I can personally say that many of the posters talking about how great clones are, are on other threads talking about how they fixed problems such as crunchy buttons.
I can also personally say that I've yet to have a problem out of my originals. There are originals with problems, however. Just research carefully.
And good luck whichever way you decide
To the OP:
As for quality of clones, I can't personally say.
BUT
I can personally say that many of the posters talking about how great clones are, are on other threads talking about how they fixed problems such as crunchy buttons.
I can also personally say that I've yet to have a problem out of my originals. There are originals with problems, however. Just research carefully.
And good luck whichever way you decide
Many (i'd say 70%) of the crunchy button complaints having been coming in from stingray clones, the original suffers from the same condition/issue.
It's acceptable (and easily fixed) on a $30 clone, its not acceptable on a $200 original.
Yep.
Some clones have problems. Others are very good quality (at least as good as the original), and others are seemingly better. I have one clone with a button that is what I call "finicky" (the Black Copper Stingray by Infinite). I have 4 others which are awesome (Hcigar 69, Hcigar Brass Stingray, Tree of Life by Infinite, and Hcigar Caravela), one of them being identical to the original so far as I can tell (The Tree of Life by Infinite - though the Caravela is close too, except that they didn't see fit to provide various extra connction pins like in the original).
It's all about doing research or taking a risk on a new clone (as I did with the Black Copper Stingray).
And as Chelonian stated, buying an original is no guarantee that it is without problems. I've read various reports of people lamenting their Nemesis button, while many immediately seek to upgrade the spring to magnets.
That said, the one original I have on hand (Atimizoo Roller) works great (I also have a Sigelei 20W, but that's like saying I have an original Coolfire 1). I expect that the Akuma by GP Custom will be as well once I receive it tomorrow, as well as the EPM MOD from Australia that I just ordered 5 minutes ago directly from the modder (and spent a small fortune on).
One could argue that when a clone has the same issues as the original it has cloned, that the copy is pretty damn good.
Personally I'd like to see cloners FIX those problems rather than copy them, but that would take more work and engineering than I imagine most clone manufacturers are willing or capable of doing. One exception I can think of is the revised version of the Caravela by Infinite. Their first clone provided the same pins that the original came with, but it's a pretty bad solution. Who wants to carry around multiple pins in order to make sure that different batteries fit? But when Infinite revised their clone, they simply replaced the multiple pins with a telescopic copper connection that is a much more elegant and practical. I'd like to see other clone manufacturers do the same thing.
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