Questions about the Electronic Cigarette Association

[LaceyUnderall]

I know personally, I contacted a few labs awhile back and was told that they weren't going to test anything to do with electronic cigarettes. They might have a change of tune now.

The other thing to be concerned about is the resume the particular lab carries.

If you can find a lab that you believe is extremely reputable (ie they haven't had any issues regarding the status of their studies) and is cost effective, I would be thrilled to have your assistance.

EDIT: I do know some price tags (were outrageous) based on others who have gotten quotes but they were way out of my budget.

 

[Vista Chris]

Funding is currently going to:

1. Lobbying and contact building in Congress
2. Pursuing Media Leads
3. Implementing Manufacturing Processes

Testing could be upwards of the 6 figure range and based on the current funding, this could be a long way off.

I have a quote for an complete and full mimic of the FDA test for less then 30k.

Where are you coming up with 6 figures from?

Thing is I don't have 30k. Does the ECA?

 

[LaceyUnderall]

I have a quote for an complete and full mimic of the FDA test for less then 30k.

Where are you coming up with 6 figures from?

Thing is I don't have 30k. Does the ECA?

Nope.

With this complete mimic of the FDA test are they willing to include the actual numbers in which were found? ie: you will note that the FDA test says detected and not detected but doesn't give the actual stats.

Also, does this test include all of the samples that weren't included in the testing?

 

[tannerk]

Could this be because they have read what I said and are now thinking to themselves "Hey we did screw the pooch on this one." Or is it that they are afraid to respond to my accusations of the ECA actually being a fraud. Like I said ban me if you want because of my discrediting the ECA I really don't care. But I will continue to point out their failures and will continue my crusade to ensure that they do not steal any more money from ANYONE. The ECA is a joke.

"But I will continue to point out their failures and will continue my crusade to ensure that they do not steal any more money from ANYONE" ???

"The ECA is a joke" ???

We are all frustrated with FDA's spin and flood of misinformation from the news, but fighting amongst ourselves IS NOT A SOLUTION!

Last time I checked, ECA did not steal money from anyone. All donations are voluntary. And if you don't think "your" money is well spend (with ECA), here is a solution - do not donate. But go off on a tangent with your unsubstantiated claims is unwarranted.

Now, you want to help, then make suggestions, volunteer you time or do anything else you "THINK" ECA should be doing.

So why don't you take my frendly advice - Do "continue your crusade to ensure that" your time is better spend promoting our cause, instead of fighting with the only entity (good or bad) supporting our movement.


Tanner.
--

 

[nveid]

ECA does not have 30k? Wow, sounds like you guys need to take a serious lesson in the ability to raise money & fundraising(go talk to your local girlscout/cubscout group ). If you guys can't come up with 30k from an estimate esmoker rate of somewhere near 100k you guys are seriously going about it all wrong. You guys need to act, and act fast cause that is a trivial amount of money. Take a serious look at how much your asking for organization to contribute to the ECA to become a member, and look at my consumer membership thread. Let me put it in perspective if there is somewhere near 100k esmokers and 1% join the ECA there should be enough funds. And if you can't get more suppliers and vendors to sign on with the program, than obviously you need to rethink your membership fees for them to sign on as well.

The industry may be hurting too much to pay fees of that sort, though if the fees are made a more inviting price than more people can sign on. If you can't get enough organization & companies to pay the high fees than it isn't about how high and how much you can get places to pay, its about how many you can get to sign on. If an organization can't afford to pay the high fees, great for them, though I'm guessing from the membership page not many can afford it.

Now listen just like you guys need to get your results out there from njoy soon, you guys need to seriously rethink these issues soon. FDA is closing in, and they are are closing in fast. You can't sit back and let the FDA roll over the ecig industry which seems to be what you guys are letting them do. To me, and probably to where other people are sitting as well, you guys are doing a TERRIBLE job. You guys could improve things, apparently maybe you guys have no experience at an organization like this which is why its failing, or perhaps like others suggested you guys are a scam operation just taking money from what few companies yall have managed to pay the high fees and letting the ecig industry fall in all reality. The latter I like to think not, though I'm sure some would fall towards that way of thinking.

 

[Surf Monkey]

This divisiveness isn't helping anyone.

Look, we're all frustrated by the way this is all playing out. We all want a strong advocate for our position. I have no doubt in my mind that ECA is making a good faith effort to support the cause. We may have issues with their specific strategies, but to say they're "doing a TERRIBLE job" is absolutely counter productive. Spend that energy writing to your congressmen and senators, your state representatives and governor.

Personally, I look forward to the ECA's new initiatives. It's not too late to make an impact.

 

[nveid]

Alright.. They're not doing a terrible job, I'm just pointing out that they could be doing better. I look forward to seeing the initiatives they may have coming out. I believe alot of us are writing our congressman, I know I have. Though I am a firm believer the ECA could be doing a better job fund raising money for OUR cause. I stand strongly behind them believing they should be a strong advocate of the Esmoking public, so I am I guess trying to prod them to do better.

 

[twoshadetod]

I almost wonder if a group of non vendors and just users would have more impact and be viewed as less biased in their approaches?

I know it would result a much higher membership base.

 

[nveid]

Possibly.. Perhaps we could work on starting up another group for these purposes? Maybe thats the problem, thats the purpose of the ECA, is for vendors and trade reasons. Maybe a seperate group which is of end users would be the answer.

 

[twoshadetod]

If it happens it shouldn't happen just to spite the ECA but it could be a solution for end users that would love to be part of something and have meaningful things to contribute that are either unwilling or unable to join ECA.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Have you two checked out Right To Vape - Index This was set up for that very purpose, unfortunately, has made very little traction.

IMHO (and this is not ECA opinion, this is my opinion) - Many consumers simply have not felt the "crunch" yet and until that happens, they may simply believe that all is happy and they will always have their PV's. Which they will in one way or another... but price, availability, even legality of importing on one's own may come into question. There is a lot of talk... some action. Lots of action by certain individuals... but not by all.

There is also decisive talk that becomes overwhelming and side tracks everyone. I am not saying that decisive talk isn't good in some cases, but as you will find that this decisive talk isn't just about the ECA, but about individuals against others within the vaping community. Some of the threads on some of the forums seriously make one wonder what the hell everyone is doing and why anyone is complaining that nothing appears to be getting done. It literally rivals high school hallways. We have lost some seriously important members of the vaping community over the last three months across several different forums.

It's hard because even though I am a supplier, many consumers tend to forget that the suppliers are consumers too. Many of us were consumers first. Many also tend to forget that we are American citizens who are being wronged by our country (and were wronged by our country as smokers) and many tend to forget that we are small American buisnesses being pushed out of the free market by two large monopolies. We have an obscene amount to loose, from our freedoms to our livelihood.

I am all for anything anyone wants to do. I participate at RTV, help the ECA, participate here, Vapers Forum... so whatever we can do to work together is great! We all have the same cause, and it certainly makes it easier for me! I support the ECA because the ECA is what we have that has stepped forward and is attempting to come to the common goal. I support the ECA because I am a supplier and I want to ensure that my industry is around so I can continue to do business in a legal fashion. Support my customers and pay my taxes.

I would support any consumer group that actively got their stuff together. First step: Becoming a legal entity in order to accept donations. Then, a way to accept donations.

Please... come join the conversations at RTV. Many of the conversations have simply died and need to be restarted and anyone who has knowledge in starting an organization or has the gumption to get stuff off of the forum and into the real world, has my support 100%. (As a supplier, I can only participate to a certain level to keep the purity of the consumer group in tact)

EDIT: I would also like to add that a very proactive consumer has been Spikey. If you haven't been in contact with her, she is one who has lots of great ideas and has actually gotten them offline into the real world. www.vapersforum.com is her set up and definitely worth a chat with her if you have not done so.

 

[lvlninety9]

"But I will continue to point out their failures and will continue my crusade to ensure that they do not steal any more money from ANYONE" ???

"The ECA is a joke" ???

We are all frustrated with FDA's spin and flood of misinformation from the news, but fighting amongst ourselves IS NOT A SOLUTION!

Last time I checked, ECA did not steal money from anyone. All donations are voluntary. And if you don't think "your" money is well spend (with ECA), here is a solution - do not donate. But go off on a tangent with your unsubstantiated claims is unwarranted.

Now, you want to help, then make suggestions, volunteer you time or do anything else you "THINK" ECA should be doing.

So why don't you take my frendly advice - Do "continue your crusade to ensure that" your time is better spend promoting our cause, instead of fighting with the only entity (good or bad) supporting our movement.


Tanner.
--

Are you blind? My claims are unwarranted? I'm sorry but did you READ the statement put out by the ECA after the FDA statement? The fact that they completely sidestepped the issue brought up by the FDA should be considered criminal. The FDA states falsehoods and the ECA fails to point it out? There are articles on blogs and minor news sites that did a thousand times better picking apart the FDA report then the ECA. That's all I have to say about that because I'm getting tired of repeating myself on that subject.

And for 2, yes they are ripping off the suppliers. They ask for donations and yes it is voluntary but a certain level of effort and resources are expecting to help move things forward. That's what the ECA is supposed to stand for and is supposed to be doing and by not doing this they are in essence ripping off those who donate to them expecting things to be done. With that massive failure of a rebuttal statement and the many failed news stories and tv appearances. I've seen about 95% of them and not once did they say anything more then well everyone else is wrong. I guess there are some of you out there who approve of this kind of garbage and are willing to shell out 2 or 300 a month for it. If I were a supplier who joined them or a donating party I would seriously be questioning what exactly my money has been doing and would feel extremely ripped off. My claims are not unsubstantiated and there has been a lot of negativity towards the ECA and this is just one more block for the stack.

As for the fighting amongst each other I agree with you with the exception of the ECA. They are supposed to be fighting for us and so far I have seen no fight. All I see is that they are spending all the money on lobbying and what not. And even then I still don't see it because the majority out there are still against us. If you honestly go and look through this post, if the ECA had produced a reasonable statement to countermand the one put out by the FDA I wouldn't be saying these things here. And yes I have stated that the ECA is ripping off people in other threads.

Oh and also, I have spent some time trying to make suggestions and such only to have it fall on deaf ears. I have also volunteered to donate any time or effort needed by any group or individual that is trying to further our cause and for free even. So don't tell me that I'm just trying to fight with the ECA. I have given suggestions I have done a lot. I've even gone so far as to look into testing of my own free will with my own money. The funny part about me doing all of this is that I'm not asking for donations or any of that. This is coming out of my own pocket.

And to be honest I could have come out with a better statement then the ECA did. But no one is going to listen to me. The ECA should have done it to begin with instead of giving us the garbage that they did. Donate your money and expect certain things to happen only to be slapped in the face by a statement saying oh the FDA is wrong because we say so. What a joke.

 

[TheIllustratedMan]

This forum does create a strange situation where consumers and suppliers are interacting on a daily basis and fighting toward a common goal. I really hope that once this is all sorted out, we don't get a nasty "Ha ha we used you to stay in business!" surprise, but anything's possible.
I for one think that we should band together as a community. Can you image sharing a forum with the CEO of Phillip Morris and being able to say, whenever you wanted, "Hey Phil," (no matter who it is, I always think of him as Phil), "Hey Phil, wanna tone it down on the tar next batch? My lung just collapsed and they're having a hard time prying the sides away from each other!"
And then Phil shoots back "Oh crap, sorry buddy, I'm working on it. You get 5% off your next order, just use coupon code COLLAPSEDLUNG (all caps)."
I've been called gullible, a dreamer, an idealist, a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal... but I think that if we can band together now we could actually start a new kind of industry where consumer input is valued and innovative competition is encouraged. Just look at the modders who tinker and play to make some crazy new device, and end up as a well-respected company selling it and improving it. Look at the people who are inspired by what those guys are doing and striving to make it bigger, better, faster, stronger. If this could become a "legitimate" industry, keep the same dynamic that it seems to have now, and become insanely profitable, it could be a model for the next generation of the corporate world.

Or, you know, it could all collapse in a fiery heap with people stealing each other's crap, over-protective secrecy, back-stabbing and stonewalling and libel and slander and lawsuits and patent infringement and firebombs and CEO assassinations and eight thousand dollar price tags.

I'm rambling this morning.

 

[wv2win]

Lacy, I am sure it is difficult and costly to come up with a strong, reasoned and scientific rebutal to the FDA. I hope you are working with Dr. Siegal and Bill Godshall in this effort and hope you find a way to get our position to the larger media outlets just as the FDA did.

I really believe that if we could ever get John Stossil of ABC's Give Me a Break/20-20 to look at both sides of this issue, he would come down squarely in the corner of personal vaporizers. He really seems to believe strongly in common sense and not one sided ideology.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

WV - I assure you the ECA is doing everything they possibly can to do just as you have noted. Thank you for your support!

I will add John Stossil to the list of persons in the media to contact who might actually give us a fair shake.

If anyone else has suggestions of fair media types, by all means let me know. I cannot guarantee anything but as usual, I will forward on.

 

[HopingToQuit]

Ken & John KFI radio 790 LA would be a good start!

WV - I assure you the ECA is doing everything they possibly can to do just as you have noted. Thank you for your support!

I will add John Stossil to the list of persons in the media to contact who might actually give us a fair shake.

If anyone else has suggestions of fair media types, by all means let me know. I cannot guarantee anything but as usual, I will forward on.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Ken & John KFI radio 790 LA would be a good start!

Noted. Thank you!

 

[JimStanmore]

(Newbie here thinking about becoming a US supplier.) I notice that the ECA does not say that it will develop any kind of data about e-cigs:

"These funds, along with any donations received, will be used for these purposes:

1) Engaging Policy Impact Communications (www policyimpact com) to lobby Congress on behalf of the ECA.

2) Engaging Policy Impact Communications to perform the administrative duties necessary to keep the ECA in good standing with the IRS and other government agencies.

3) Engaging a media relations firm to battle misinformation being presented by e-cigarette opponents and to expand the reach of electronic cigarettes so all smokers have the freedom to choose an alternative.

4) Implement standards to ensure e-cigarette suppliers and distributors meet certain requirements.

5) Implement standards to ensure the manufacturing of the products meet certain requirements"

That means the earlier suggestion about a sister association with those goals may be appropriate. I am also wondering if the following sources have been approached:

1) Graduate students needing thesis topics
2) Labs owned by smokers-turned-vapers
3) The people with money and a sense of social responsibility, i.e. Bill Gates, Oprah

My mind has already started to work on "talking papers" that use data from existing studies and would be freely available on-line and elsewhere. I heartily agree with our not looking like the agressors: Americans love rooting for the underdog. I also agree that we need to put the facts out there. As a school teacher I can tell you that the minute I start hearing ,"but he said..." I start tuning out and the discussion is over.

Just a thought, can't "we" arrange for a study and get interested parties to contribute as they wish? As soon as the money hits the mark, the study starts? Sort of like the Diggs thing on one of the forums front page last week.

 

[JimStanmore]

Hmmm, I just read the articles at e-cig org; science is stepping up. I notice the FDA is soliciting for health problems caused by e-cigarettes. What would happen if some of us submitted health improvements instead? (Still can't do web sites yet...):

"The FDA has told anyone with any adverse effects to report them by:
* Regular Mail: use postage-paid FDA form 3500 available at: www fda gov/Safety/MedWatch/HowToReport/DownloadForms/defaul htm and mail to MedWatch, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20852-9787
* Fax: (800) FDA-0178
* Phone: (800) FDA-1088"

 

[lvlninety9]

Hmmm, I just read the articles at e-cig org; science is stepping up. I notice the FDA is soliciting for health problems caused by e-cigarettes. What would happen if some of us submitted health improvements instead? (Still can't do web sites yet...):

"The FDA has told anyone with any adverse effects to report them by:
* Regular Mail: use postage-paid FDA form 3500 available at: www fda gov/Safety/MedWatch/HowToReport/DownloadForms/defaul htm and mail to MedWatch, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20852-9787
* Fax: (800) FDA-0178
* Phone: (800) FDA-1088"

They mentioned doing this in another thread, but doing that could give the FDA the ability to throw a spin on it. Instead of stating that there were actual problems, they could in fact say that they have received X amount of letters that were sent in to their department that is handling all matters concerning adverse effects from e-cigarettes. It is a far stretch, but it's how they could spin it. Technically they don't have to reveal any information contained in those letters as that department was meant to determine ill effects.