Questions for @Mooch

[sawlight]

maybe we can try to have a place just for questions for @Mooch so things aren't all over the forum and they are easier to find. As well as possibly being easier for him to keep track of and answer.
I have a couple out the gate.

I still have people argue with me that batteries have no internal resistance, only the mod and the coil have resistance. But in the last two videos you hit on it numerous time? Any way to break this down so a layman could understand it?

I, when trying to express the inherent dangers of these batteries to new members, often explain it as they have the potential of 1/4 stick of dynamite in the wrong conditions.
In your latest video you were much more concerned about venting than thermal runaway. Have I been over exaggerating the potential dangers?
Thank you again for all you do!

 

[Mooch]

maybe we can try to have a place just for questions for @Mooch so things aren't all over the forum and they are easier to find. As well as possibly being easier for him to keep track of and answer.
I have a couple out the gate.

I still have people argue with me that batteries have no internal resistance, only the mod and the coil have resistance. But in the last two videos you hit on it numerous time? Any way to break this down so a layman could understand it?

I, when trying to express the inherent dangers of these batteries to new members, often explain it as they have the potential of 1/4 stick of dynamite in the wrong conditions.
In your latest video you were much more concerned about venting than thermal runaway. Have I been over exaggerating the potential dangers?
Thank you again for all you do!

What is battery internal resistance? | E-Cigarette Forum

Venting is much more likely than runaway even though the latter is a much more serious event. It all depends on what makes something more dangerous, it's probability of occurring or its severity?

 

[sawlight]

I guess all of the above!
Like @Baditude had a silver bullet vent in his pocket because the fire button got held down, but that was a low ohm atty. With these low, super low builds, how bad could that be, say .2ohms?
What would be worse case scenario? With all the news stories of battery accidents, how bad could it really, honestly, be?

Edit, thanks for the link! Now that I know where to find it, I'll use it!

 

[sawlight]

Ok, how's this, worse case scenario using a vaping mod? Does that narrow it down enough?

 

[Mooch]

Worst case is a short-circuit leading to thermal runaway.

If that happens then at best you'll have a battery spewing out tons of toxic smoke and scalding liquid but a pop off side pNel of the mod will release any additional pressure buildup. The cell could still burst though.

At worst you will have a bursting battery with a fireball trapped inside a mod that can't pop off a side panel, e.g., a tube mod, and the pressure builds until the mod explodes....with a fireball, scalding liquid, and shrapnel.

 

[r77r7r]

Worst case is a short-circuit leading to thermal runaway.

If that happens then at best you'll have a battery spewing out tons of toxic smoke and scalding liquid but a pop off side pNel of the mod will release any additional pressure buildup. The cell could still burst though.

At worst you will have a bursting battery with a fireball trapped inside a mod that can't pop off a side panel, e.g., a tube mod, and the pressure builds until the mod explodes....with a fireball, scalding liquid, and shrapnel.

Wow, and these are considered to be safer chemistry. How much worse is a Li-on? I recall viewing vids of these shorting out with much less drama.?

 

[DaveP]

It makes sense that a battery has a certain resistance to current flow. All circuits do. We all tend to think about resistance as a load variable that presents a reluctance to allow current to flow from one pole of a load to the other, whether it's DC resistance, AC reactance, or an inductive reactance load.

I tend to think of battery resistance like wading through water. The faster you move, the more you feel the water holding you back. So, it makes sense that current flow in an electrolyte would result in a higher resistance to flow as current draw increases. Heat from the higher rate of electron movement is a result.

 

[Baditude]

I guess all of the above!
Like @Baditude had a silver bullet vent in his pocket because the fire button got held down, but that was a low ohm atty. honestly, be?

Actually, I've never had an incident with my Silver Bullets. Their recessed side fire button make them extremely unlikely to accidentally fire in a pocket. In addition, they have a hot spring which act like a fuse. The fire button also pops off to allow gas from a venting battery to escape. I consider the Silver Bullet to be among the safer mechanical mods. Unfortunately, they have been discontinued.

The mechanical mod that had a battery explode in was the AltSmoke BB, a 14500 battery mod. I was using a Trustfire ICR 14500 battery because that was what the mod manufacturer recommended, and I didn't know any better at the time being a brand new vaper. This BB has a protruding fire button, so it accidentally fired in a pants pocket hanging in my locker at work. The BB had a fire button which popped out when the battery went thermal, but didn't prevent my pants pocket from catching on fire.

BB on the left, Silver Bullet on the right, cartotanks on both. Note the protruding horn fire button on the BB, and the recessed button on the Silver Bullet. Exploded 14500 Trustfire ICR battery taken with an old flip phone.

 

[KenD]

Actually, I've never had an incident with my Silver Bullets. Their recessed side fire button make them extremely unlikely to accidentally fire in a pocket. In addition, they have a hot spring which act like a fuse. The fire button also pops off to allow gas from a venting battery to escape. I consider the Silver Bullet to be among the safer mechanical mods. Unfortunately, they have been discontinued.

The mechanical mod that had a battery explode in was the AltSmoke BB, a 14500 battery mod. I was using a Trustfire ICR 14500 battery because that was what the mod manufacturer recommended, and I didn't know any better at the time being a brand new vaper. This BB has a protruding fire button, so it accidentally fired in a pants pocket hanging in my locker at work. The BB had a fire button which popped out when the battery went thermal, but didn't prevent my pants pocket from catching on fire.

BB on the left, Silver Bullet on the right, cartotanks on both. Note the protruding horn fire button on the BB, and the recessed button on the Silver Bullet. Exploded 14500 Trustfire ICR battery taken with an old flip phone.

I don't disagree with you per se, and I never had a Silver Bullet, but I think it's essential mech mods have locks, side fire button or not.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Baditude]

I don't disagree with you per se, and I never had a Silver Bullet, but I think it's essential mech mods have locks, side fire button or not.

As we are both safety advocates, I agree with you.

However, I've had and used two Silver Bullets over the last 5 years, and I have always carried them in a pants pocket without any fear of an accidental button press. The button is not exactly easy to compress, and since it is recessed into the body of the mod, and is designed to pop out with any internal air pressure, I'm confident its a safe mod to transport in a pocket or purse.

It's a moot point since both the BB and Silver Bullet are out of production.

 

[Mooch]

Wow, and these are considered to be safer chemistry. How much worse is a Li-on? I recall viewing vids of these shorting out with much less drama.?

LiPo's are one of the types, i.e., chemistries, of Li-Ion we use. It is the most volatile.
Other chemistries we use, often mistakenly called IMR and INR, are "safer" than the chemistry used in LiPo's.

I have a bit more info in an article in my blog.

 

[sawlight]

Actually, I've never had an incident with my Silver Bullets. Their recessed side fire button make them extremely unlikely to accidentally fire in a pocket. In addition, they have a hot spring which act like a fuse. The fire button also pops off to allow gas from a venting battery to escape. I consider the Silver Bullet to be among the safer mechanical mods. Unfortunately, they have been discontinued.

The mechanical mod that had a battery explode in was the AltSmoke BB, a 14500 battery mod. I was using a Trustfire ICR 14500 battery because that was what the mod manufacturer recommended, and I didn't know any better at the time being a brand new vaper. This BB has a protruding fire button, so it accidentally fired in a pants pocket hanging in my locker at work. The BB had a fire button which popped out when the battery went thermal, but didn't prevent my pants pocket from catching on fire.

BB on the left, Silver Bullet on the right, cartotanks on both. Note the protruding horn fire button on the BB, and the recessed button on the Silver Bullet. Exploded 14500 Trustfire ICR battery taken with an old flip phone.

I'm sorry I got that wrong! I knew you'd had an incident just got the wrong mod!

 

[DaveP]

I ran across this blog the other day. It seems to be sound in theory and a great explanation of what's going on in both mech mods and regulated mods. It's a lot of theory and practice in one place. I'd like to see Mooch's comments on its content.

Regulated 18650 Mods and Battery Life/Power Consumption

 

[KenD]

I've wondered about all these 200+ watt dual-battery mods. Obviously running them at full wattage exceeds the cdr of even the best batteries, and I've been very vocal in my opinion that that's a bad idea, but do you think it's possible to do without too much danger? That is to say, am I being overly cautious and do I go too far in criticizing reviewers who don't point this out? Say for example the new Smok 220w mod, which would run each battery at 38 amps or so (assuming a 3.2v cutoff and 90% efficiency).

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[medleypat]

A friend gave me a button top battery that was installed in the wrong mod and put a ripple in the top almost smashing it flat. Is it safe to use? It is a brown lg.

 

[Mooch]

I ran across this blog the other day. It seems to be sound in theory and a great explanation of what's going on in both mech mods and regulated mods. It's a lot of theory and practice in one place. I'd like to see Mooch's comments on its content.

Regulated 18650 Mods and Battery Life/Power Consumption

Seems right.

 

[Mooch]

I've wondered about all these 200+ watt dual-battery mods. Obviously running them at full wattage exceeds the cdr of even the best batteries, and I've been very vocal in my opinion that that's a bad idea, but do you think it's possible to do without too much danger? That is to say, am I being overly cautious and do I go too far in criticizing reviewers who don't point this out? Say for example the new Smok 220w mod, which would run each battery at 38 amps or so (assuming a 3.2v cutoff and 90% efficiency).

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

CDR is a cycle life and performance rating, not a safety rating. You'll never overheat a battery when vaping if you don't exceed the CDR though (unless the battery is short-circuited) so it can be an effective limit for new vapers.

You can exceed the CDR of just about any battery when vaping and not be in danger even if the mod malfunctions or the button is accidentally pressed. Depending on how far you go that can certainly reduce overall battery life though.

 

[KenD]

CDR is a cycle life and performance rating, not a safety rating. You'll never overheat a battery when vaping if you don't exceed the CDR though (unless the battery is short-circuited) so it can be an effective limit for new vapers.

You can exceed the CDR of just about any battery when vaping and not be in danger even if the mod malfunctions or the button is accidentally pressed. Depending on how far you go that can certainly reduce overall battery life though.

Oh how I hate being shown that I'm wrong. Now to find away to claim that that's what I meant all along

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[Nermal]

Oh how I hate being shown that I'm wrong. Now to find away to claim that that's what I meant all along

I have lots of moments like that.

 

[KenD]

I have lots of moments like that.

I have a couple of friends with impressive skills in avoiding responsibility and separating self-image from reality. I'll take some lessons from those experts.

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