Entirely different situations. 3 Wheel ATVs were inherently unstable and prone to flipping when used as directed by skilled riders. That's a big difference. 3 wheeler's, as well as Pintos and Corvairs were faulty designs. That's what brought their downfall, not accidents caused by putting nitroglycerine in their gas tanks or operating them while drunk.
Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods
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Entirely different situations. 3 Wheel ATVs were inherently unstable and prone to flipping when used as directed by skilled riders. That's a big difference. 3 wheeler's, as well as Pintos and Corvairs were faulty designs. That's what brought their downfall, not accidents caused by putting nitroglycerine in their gas tanks or operating them while drunk.
You cannot know what pvs were involved. Rolly has adopted the untenable view that it CANNOT be the user's fault. It CANNOT be the battery's fault either. If a pv explodes, it is a "bad design" and the fault of the pv's designer. He has emphasized that principle several times. Therefore, if he tells you what PVs were involved, he is indicting the manufacturer or designer as being "bad engineers" and labeling the PV as a "bad design". Not an enviable corner to have painted himself into, I must say.
I know my old Jaguar was a constant source of Electrical trouble due to its Factory wiring...
but I still loved that sexy XJ6 all the same
HaHa...No offense to Roly, but I had both an MG and a Triumph Spitfire back in the day. Loved both of them, but ever since then, l can't help but grab for my salt shaker when a Brit starts talking about wiring. It's never exactly been their forte, IME.
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Maybe that's the intention, or even the genesis, of applying the "it's always the design's fault" doctrine.
If it's always the fault of the design, you are relieved of any need to identify the cause of a failure. Just blame the design for failure to meet the idiot-proof test. Then, the question of how many are really cases of "I dint do nuttin wrong, just go Boom" is rendered irrelevant.
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Does anyone remember where the Rocket mod (I hate that term) was posted? The one that zoomed through a door knocked over a refrigerator and set three rooms on fire?
I'd like to re-read that one.
and set three rooms on fire?I'd like to re-read that one.
OK, that must not be the one. Rocket action with a hot second cell explosion may not be the same as a cell in thermal runaway.
Several tests performed by various government agencies have shown what a heated cell can do. Either heated by fire, or in a sealed container with other hot cells. It's the second, and third exploding cell that has the most force. All of the energy expended in a fraction of a second. If a venting cell doesn't create a very large vent (by blowing an end cap off) to drop pressure and allow the escape of heat and the second cell goes the pressure pulse just might create little slivers of 'shrapnel'. Two types of explosions. One is the pressure building up in a sealed mod. The second is rapid disintegration of an exploding hot cell.
I still think a venting cell, generating a lot of heat and gas, needs to vent out of the mod. It seems that things get violent is there are no (or really small) vents allowing the mod to blow from internal pressure. Have there been any tests to show that a cell can be heated to the self ignition/explosion point in a few seconds?
and buGG, That GG got the user really excited. Maybe he never played with model rockets. A rocket indoors would have bounced around and chased everyone out of the room
Maybe don't vape stacked batteries around friends and family. If you do, have an escape plan.
Several tests performed by various government agencies have shown what a heated cell can do. Either heated by fire, or in a sealed container with other hot cells. It's the second, and third exploding cell that has the most force. All of the energy expended in a fraction of a second. If a venting cell doesn't create a very large vent (by blowing an end cap off) to drop pressure and allow the escape of heat and the second cell goes the pressure pulse just might create little slivers of 'shrapnel'. Two types of explosions. One is the pressure building up in a sealed mod. The second is rapid disintegration of an exploding hot cell.
I still think a venting cell, generating a lot of heat and gas, needs to vent out of the mod. It seems that things get violent is there are no (or really small) vents allowing the mod to blow from internal pressure. Have there been any tests to show that a cell can be heated to the self ignition/explosion point in a few seconds?
and buGG, That GG got the user really excited. Maybe he never played with model rockets. A rocket indoors would have bounced around and chased everyone out of the room
Maybe don't vape stacked batteries around friends and family. If you do, have an escape plan.
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it sounds like the 3 small vents on this GG were enough to keep this mod from exploding. im not 100% sold on the slits in the tube. in a stainless steel mod the slits might not be a bad idea (except for burning the heck out of ones hand). in an aluminum tube the slits could weaken the tube to the point of fragmenting when the battery goes boom. i think the slots in the bottom cap someone (sorry i dont remember who right now) posted images of are a better idea. im not an engineer. im not going to win any spelling bees. heck i didnt even stay at a holiday inn last night, but common sense goes a long way.until we have some actual destructive scientific testing, common sense, and edjucated guess work are really all we have to work with. IMHO.
One thing for sure. Stacked cells provide several additional opportunities for failure.
Cell to cell shorts caused by jackknifed cells, sliding magnets, confusion about protected vs unprotected.
One cell going thermal heating the second cell until it fails.
Drawing ridiculous currents from itsy bitsy cells, regardless of C rating.
Protected Li-ion, and IMR cells stacked in an unregulated mod gives
2X3.7 volts. So many users go for the 3 volt cells.
Protected cells are too long to stack in many mods.
Trendy gimmick words like Sweet Spot, Low Resistance, High Voltage, even Watts,
drives many to try stacked battery mods. They must be better. Ask anyone that owns one. Do you really think vaping 20 watts from a pair of little cells is much different than a short?
How long does it take for the second cell to go in a single cell mod?
Cell to cell shorts caused by jackknifed cells, sliding magnets, confusion about protected vs unprotected.
One cell going thermal heating the second cell until it fails.
Drawing ridiculous currents from itsy bitsy cells, regardless of C rating.
Protected Li-ion, and IMR cells stacked in an unregulated mod gives
2X3.7 volts. So many users go for the 3 volt cells.
Protected cells are too long to stack in many mods.
Trendy gimmick words like Sweet Spot, Low Resistance, High Voltage, even Watts,
drives many to try stacked battery mods. They must be better. Ask anyone that owns one. Do you really think vaping 20 watts from a pair of little cells is much different than a short?
How long does it take for the second cell to go in a single cell mod?
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I bow to your expertise Sailorman. You might not want the info, I DO. So we can agree to disagree on this point. I also believe that a certain level of certification would be nice for something with so much power that you are holding inches away from your face.
There was much interesting discussion on this on VT Talk last night - and it's not the end of the story.
VTTalk gets you there.
VTTalk gets you there.
Sometimes when I type from a phone I do not focus well enough nor re-read my text.
Upon re-reading a prior post I wrote via that method, I can now see my tone-on-paper was not how I intended it to be.
I fully and completely agree "something" should be done.
I started vaping about a year ago and even in that short a time, the industry has changed.
Many people who have been very happy with items like simple eGo , KGO etc are now, perhaps the batteries in those units have died -
and rather than buying another eGo or KGO,
now seek something new and different;
hence greater chance of harm given how different some of these units are.
I would urge any vendor reading this : either on your website or printed out with an order,
give us INSTRUCTIONS !!!
I mean no offense to any vendor but there are rather nice Profit Margins in this industry, please take the time and effort to generate CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS -
almost without exception, the vendors I have dealt with are outstanding.
But sometimes you can lose the forest for the trees, and they are not aware how many "new" people there are incoming buying products they truly have no clue how to SAFELY use.
eGo and KGO people are now buying LavaTubes, different batteries, chargers, box mods, etc. Perhaps using different ohm attys, sometimes incorrectly.
No longer are your customers people who could tell two different types of 18350 batteries in the dark (based on nipple or not) : lol; I am pondering inserting an obvious joke here but shall take the high road)
Vendors: Assume you are talking to a reasonably smart person who has never ever used anything like what you just sold them.
EDUCATE YOUR CUSTOMERS
thank you
Upon re-reading a prior post I wrote via that method, I can now see my tone-on-paper was not how I intended it to be.
I fully and completely agree "something" should be done.
I started vaping about a year ago and even in that short a time, the industry has changed.
Many people who have been very happy with items like simple eGo , KGO etc are now, perhaps the batteries in those units have died -
and rather than buying another eGo or KGO,
now seek something new and different;
hence greater chance of harm given how different some of these units are.
I would urge any vendor reading this : either on your website or printed out with an order,
give us INSTRUCTIONS !!!
I mean no offense to any vendor but there are rather nice Profit Margins in this industry, please take the time and effort to generate CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS -
almost without exception, the vendors I have dealt with are outstanding.
But sometimes you can lose the forest for the trees, and they are not aware how many "new" people there are incoming buying products they truly have no clue how to SAFELY use.
eGo and KGO people are now buying LavaTubes, different batteries, chargers, box mods, etc. Perhaps using different ohm attys, sometimes incorrectly.
No longer are your customers people who could tell two different types of 18350 batteries in the dark (based on nipple or not) : lol; I am pondering inserting an obvious joke here but shall take the high road)
Vendors: Assume you are talking to a reasonably smart person who has never ever used anything like what you just sold them.
EDUCATE YOUR CUSTOMERS
thank you
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ECF : a simple simple start to help:
Give every certified ECF Vendor two weeks to generate (on their website) easy to understand instructions for every product they sell.
Educate me how to properly and safely charge a battery.
Educate me how to store them in very hot or very cold weather.
Educate me what batteries are safe for this device.
Educate me that you are making a Legally Binding statement your batteries and chargers are NOT counterfeit.
Educate me why this $20 charger is SAFER than the brand X charger I already have.
If you don't sell the proper battery for the device you sell, perhaps suggest Trusted vendors who do.
Juice Vendors:
Require any ECF Vendor selling juice to legally list the source of their NIC.
The reply of "that is a secret we do not share" is no longer acceptable.
I'm not asking for the recipe, I just want you to PROVE TO ME exactly where your NIC came from.
***
I can appreciate the "what is a safe PV device" topic is not one that will resolve soon
HOWEVER
there is no reason at all in my view ECF could not require any ECF Vendor to do within 2 weeks the following:
1) list source of NIC in the juice sold
2) provide clear understandable instructions for items sold (assume a first time buyer who has never used anything before).
3) certify to ECF your purchase order of batteries and chargers showing legit and not counterfeit.
4) Vendor to supply end customer with piece of paper of Authentic Items (we warrant what you bought from us is not counterfeit).
Comments? Am i nuts or is the above fully do-able, fair and sane to ask a vendor for. Who, let's face it, we are trusting human lives to. How many people selling items online are buying who knows what from alibaba.com or ebay or who knows where and presenting it as genuine.
I love my Joye 306 atty and i've had a few vendors sell what they claim was joye306 attys, they tasted like crap; and when I asked for proof they were genuine Joye and I'll eat the $; but if you can't prove it, either refund my money or I"m killing the charge on my credit card - it shocked me 6 months ago how many online vendors buy crap and try to sell it as legit. And this was also my fault, I tried to save a few bucks, buy from vendors NOT on ecf and the above happened. I've only had one horrible experience with an ECF vendor, all the rest have been 110%
Time for wine and some jazz, good nite
Give every certified ECF Vendor two weeks to generate (on their website) easy to understand instructions for every product they sell.
Educate me how to properly and safely charge a battery.
Educate me how to store them in very hot or very cold weather.
Educate me what batteries are safe for this device.
Educate me that you are making a Legally Binding statement your batteries and chargers are NOT counterfeit.
Educate me why this $20 charger is SAFER than the brand X charger I already have.
If you don't sell the proper battery for the device you sell, perhaps suggest Trusted vendors who do.
Juice Vendors:
Require any ECF Vendor selling juice to legally list the source of their NIC.
The reply of "that is a secret we do not share" is no longer acceptable.
I'm not asking for the recipe, I just want you to PROVE TO ME exactly where your NIC came from.
***
I can appreciate the "what is a safe PV device" topic is not one that will resolve soon
HOWEVER
there is no reason at all in my view ECF could not require any ECF Vendor to do within 2 weeks the following:
1) list source of NIC in the juice sold
2) provide clear understandable instructions for items sold (assume a first time buyer who has never used anything before).
3) certify to ECF your purchase order of batteries and chargers showing legit and not counterfeit.
4) Vendor to supply end customer with piece of paper of Authentic Items (we warrant what you bought from us is not counterfeit).
Comments? Am i nuts or is the above fully do-able, fair and sane to ask a vendor for. Who, let's face it, we are trusting human lives to. How many people selling items online are buying who knows what from alibaba.com or ebay or who knows where and presenting it as genuine.
I love my Joye 306 atty and i've had a few vendors sell what they claim was joye306 attys, they tasted like crap; and when I asked for proof they were genuine Joye and I'll eat the $; but if you can't prove it, either refund my money or I"m killing the charge on my credit card - it shocked me 6 months ago how many online vendors buy crap and try to sell it as legit. And this was also my fault, I tried to save a few bucks, buy from vendors NOT on ecf and the above happened. I've only had one horrible experience with an ECF vendor, all the rest have been 110%
Time for wine and some jazz, good nite
What you are asking for is entirely reasonable but is more along the lines of what a consumer association does.
It would liaise with the trade association to address these issues and gradually try to enable change of this sort. Unfortunately, that is what happens in an industry that is much more mature than ours (meaning further down the line). The only reason ECF is doing anything about the mod issue is because the situation calls for drastic measures, with it being used as a reason to ban ecigs.
Maybe you can see the sorts of problems that trying to force any improvement causes. Only a trade or consumer association can really make any headway there.
It takes a great deal of strength for a consumer association to go up against the trade to try and get changes of the sort you mention. CASAA might be strong enough to do that now, but they have their hands full fighting bans. They are stretched to the limit there, with their board members putting in thousands of hours of unpaid work, driving all day to meetings, taking days off work, and their careers and families suffering as a result.
In some cases it appears that people don't appreciate what they do, and even want to add to their load. I've just had to ban someone like that, unfortunately. After putting in the same hours per week as my paid work time, fighting hard for community rights, you can get a little annoyed with people who don't have a clue about any of the background and want to add to your workload
It would liaise with the trade association to address these issues and gradually try to enable change of this sort. Unfortunately, that is what happens in an industry that is much more mature than ours (meaning further down the line). The only reason ECF is doing anything about the mod issue is because the situation calls for drastic measures, with it being used as a reason to ban ecigs.
Maybe you can see the sorts of problems that trying to force any improvement causes. Only a trade or consumer association can really make any headway there.
It takes a great deal of strength for a consumer association to go up against the trade to try and get changes of the sort you mention. CASAA might be strong enough to do that now, but they have their hands full fighting bans. They are stretched to the limit there, with their board members putting in thousands of hours of unpaid work, driving all day to meetings, taking days off work, and their careers and families suffering as a result.
In some cases it appears that people don't appreciate what they do, and even want to add to their load. I've just had to ban someone like that, unfortunately. After putting in the same hours per week as my paid work time, fighting hard for community rights, you can get a little annoyed with people who don't have a clue about any of the background and want to add to your workload
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As I've worked through my design while trying to adhere to the EMSS guidelines fairly closely (cutting slots down the side of the tube is just not going to happen for a number of reasons including cost, logistics, aesthetics and the added danger of increasing the risk of battery casing damage), I've begun to have concerns about contamination of the battery by foreign debris, foreign objects and weather. By fully opening up the battery tube, you're exposing the electrical connections to a whole host of potential contaminants.
Of course there are ways to get around that. I'm looking into internal covers that block the vent holes/slots to prevent contamination yet are weak enough that they would be immediately destroyed in the event of a battery failure or potentially plugs that would have a low blowout resistance (not press fit metal, but rather a more aesthetically pleasing material installed with weak glue or some type of rubber/silicone plug).
On the other hand...I'm not sure if EMSS would even apply to my device under normal circumstances. It's a Genisis style hybrid and there is no reason to go above standard voltage. Even if someone does try it, it's excessively difficult to wrap a coil with enough resistance that it would not pop instantly. Still, I'm designing it with safety features in mind in the event that someone decides to completely ignore every warning given.
Of course there are ways to get around that. I'm looking into internal covers that block the vent holes/slots to prevent contamination yet are weak enough that they would be immediately destroyed in the event of a battery failure or potentially plugs that would have a low blowout resistance (not press fit metal, but rather a more aesthetically pleasing material installed with weak glue or some type of rubber/silicone plug).
On the other hand...I'm not sure if EMSS would even apply to my device under normal circumstances. It's a Genisis style hybrid and there is no reason to go above standard voltage. Even if someone does try it, it's excessively difficult to wrap a coil with enough resistance that it would not pop instantly. Still, I'm designing it with safety features in mind in the event that someone decides to completely ignore every warning given.
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The mod design sounds interesting. We need new ideas.
Perhaps there may be different types of carbon fiber, with different properties? The types I know of do conduct, although their resistance is (I seem to remember) about 20 times that of aluminum.
This is why there have been numerous deaths of fishermen whose carbon fiber rods touched an overhead powerline, and why planes have experienced structural (skin) failures after lightning strikes, because the substitution of CF panels in the skin for metal parts in places caused heat generation in a lightning hit due to a difference in resistance and power flow across the skin that caused it to rupture.
Jack-knifed cells - possible with button top 16340s in an 18mm tube, but difficult and unlikely
Sliding magnets - Same possibility exactly single or stacked batts. Magnetic Spacers aren't a good idea for either.
Cell going thermal and taking out the other - Thermal runaways happen due to short circuits. One batt or two, a short is a short. You'll actually be better off with the smaller amount of energy density in a pair of 16340s than a single 18650.
Current draw regardless of C rating - If it's designed to do it, it is. If it is not, it's not. Lumping totally different chemistry batts together with that sort of statement just doesn't work. While I can agree that overcurrent can cause catastrophic failure, I can not agree that you will be able to achieve an overcurrent state (disregarding short circuits) with all batteries using currently available attys or cartos. That's false.
3.0v cells to avoid reaching 7.4v - I do agree, but not all 3.0v batts are created equal either.
Protected cells too long for some mods - I can agree with that also, but I don't think it necessarily leads to the use of unsafe batteries in unprotected mods. This is one of those things where better education efforts are effective. At least people who frequent this and other forums are often (nearly always) advised to use IMR for that purpose and (nearly always) advised to use high quality IMR (AW or MNKE to be specific - AW almost always recommended on ECF and MNKE often recommended on another popular e-cig forum).
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I'll have to do some testing there. I do believe it should be of a high enough resistance to be considered non-conductive in a PV application. The voltages you described are orders of magnitude higher than that of the batteries we use. Just to check, I grabbed my meter and tested resistance of the CF tube I plan to use. When touched on the outside coating (resin), the meter would not even recognize there was any current flowing even with the leads very close together. When touched to the cut end however, it did register a very low amount of resistance of about .7ohms (was fluctuating too much and too quickly to be very accurate). I know the graphite itself is conductive, but I believe resin laminated carbon fiber has a high enough resistance to be considered non-conductive for our application.
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