Ridiculous bashing at suppliers.

[Kate]

I try to show respect and understanding to suppliers but some just take the piss. Spam, deceit, bad product, bad communication, lack of aftersales care and so on. Those individual suppliers deserve to be talked about honestly in public in order to warn potential customers away.

Good suppliers likewise deserve to be talked about ... in a supportive way to recommend them to others.

One or two dramatic customers aren't going to show up as a trend and that's what really stands out - numbers and duration.

The important thing is honesty. If someone makes false statements about a trader then the trader should report that to an admin. If statements are true then what else can you expect?

 

[Rookie]

Name the Vendor and save the rest of us the grief and wasted money

 

[kylewinther]

I could not agree more! Weed out the con men!

 

[ZambucaLu]

Is there a specific place for retailer reviews? Maybe there should be... I know I've been trying a few of them here and there (so far Ive spent over $500 in my starter kit, replacement parts and juice)but could really use some guidance as Ive only been vaping for about 3 months. I feel like Ive had both positive AND negative experiences and maybe they could help the next person. I know I could benefit from hearing of others' experiences in a dedicated space..

I actually asked SJ for something like this but haven't gotten an answer yet. I mean, we have a product review board....why not a supplier review forum....for the good and the bad? This way, a newb (or anyone) can look at that and see who gets good reports and who they might want to buy from.

Right now they can go to each supplier forum individually....but that's a lot of reading. Otherwise, the posts are scattered all over the place, making it really hard to find. This way, they'd all be in one area.

I'd really like to see something like that too!

Lu

 

[ZambucaLu]

(Mod hat off)

Here's my general rule of thumb. Don't post anything on the internet that you wouldn't post across the front page of a newspaper. Why? Because anything can be copied from here (as we recently saw with our articles in some online magazine).....and really, if you post something that can't be proved and causes a vendor to lose customers/income....you can face a lot of problems legally.

Proof is the key. If someone didn't send you something they were supposed to so you accuse them of being a liar....and that results in a loss of their livelihood because other customers now blackball them, you are going to be in trouble. Sure, maybe you can prove they didn't send you something they promised....but what constitutes being a liar? One lie? Wouldn't most of us be guilty of that? So are we all liars? Can you prove he's lied to others? How many times does someone have to lie to be considered a liar? Same with calling a vendor a thief. You better be able to prove that he intended to steal something from you before you go spreading that around.

So I ask....would you spread something like that across the front page of a newspaper? Because in all honesty, the web reaches a lot more people than any newspaper.....don't forget it's worldwide. And when you start making accusations, they better be true. It's a lot different saying someone lied to you than calling someone a liar like this is what he does all the time.

Think before you post!

Lu (Mod hat back on)

 

[esmok-e]

(Mod hat off)

Here's my general rule of thumb. Don't post anything on the internet that you wouldn't post across the front page of a newspaper. Why? Because anything can be copied from here (as we recently saw with our articles in some online magazine).....and really, if you post something that can't be proved and causes a vendor to lose customers/income....you can face a lot of problems legally.

Proof is the key. If someone didn't send you something they were supposed to so you accuse them of being a liar....and that results in a loss of their livelihood because other customers now blackball them, you are going to be in trouble. Sure, maybe you can prove they didn't send you something they promised....but what constitutes being a liar? One lie? Wouldn't most of us be guilty of that? So are we all liars? Can you prove he's lied to others? How many times does someone have to lie to be considered a liar? Same with calling a vendor a thief. You better be able to prove that he intended to steal something from you before you go spreading that around.

So I ask....would you spread something like that across the front page of a newspaper? Because in all honesty, the web reaches a lot more people than any newspaper.....don't forget it's worldwide. And when you start making accusations, they better be true. It's a lot different saying someone lied to you than calling someone a liar like this is what he does all the time.

Think before you post!

Lu (Mod hat back on)

Touchdown!

 

[Kate]

Even if a trader is caught red handed scamming on the forum the chances are that they will be protected from justice. Consumers should expect to be deceived and have no right to reply apparently.

 

[ross350]

forums are for sharing information, it should be something every company lives by.
Every company should expect to receive bad reports if they are not offering value or service on par with their prices.
Take TW for instance,
I ordered from them and I bought their platinum whistle (DSE901),
it's great and I think I will use it for many months to come,
I also ordered some blank carts, but the carts I received were not for the 901.
so they are completely useless to me.
I emailed them, they said they would send the correct ones, and I was almost happy.
well, I wasn't angry but their response was slow but yeh.

A day or so later I emailed again wondering if perhaps I could get some more juice of another flavor/strength. They said they had no stock of the one I wanted but their site said they had plenty..
so, I replied in a tone that best suite my mood and level of service I had received, stating their web site was either not up to date or that they were not being honest with me.
I used the word "Hogwash" in one part and left a message that implied the company was not being run all that well.

I receive a reply telling me I am a Bully and that my money had been refunded, also they effectively told me I could never order from them again.

their actions in this matter could be compared to a few Italian soccer stars like the ones that fall to the ground writhing in pain to get their opponent team a card when no contact actually happened.

I let a company know(in private) how I felt about their service and they punished me.

after searching around I have found prices that make TW price list look like their currency converter is broken.

and I can't put the extra money down to premium service, so I don't know what other conclusion to arrive at.
they were hopeless and everyone deserves to know about it.
they deleted my posts on there but the emails exchange can be found in the (Totally wicked is slow) thread.
thanks for reading

 

[ZambucaLu]

Even if a trader is caught red handed scamming on the forum the chances are that they will be protected from justice. Consumers should expect to be deceived and have no right to reply apparently.

It's really not like that Kate. A scammer (or "conman") is generally someone who tries to deceive people to make money....on a regular basis. I remember seeing companies that sold just your basic penstyle for $150 and thinking "what a ripoff!". Now someone who buys a product for $25 and sells it for $150, well, I can safely say that I think that is unethical. Can I publicly call them scammers? Well I could if I could prove it; otherwise, I can be held legally responsible.

See, people don't really know the laws about this. I deal more in criminal law...not so much civil or corporate but I can tell you now that all law is based on proof (or evidence). You can't win a case without it (and even with it, sometimes you can't win!).

Now if someone merely uses poor judgment and advertises a product that he ends up selling without giving others that indication, well, there could be opinions about such a person but to outright call such people scammers, or con artists, or liars or thieves.....particularly if it causes what they refer to as a "loss of livelihood"...could cause serious problems to the accuser.

And it's not true that we have no right to reply or vent our feelings or "warn" others against those we feel are poor vendors....peope do it here all the time.

It's the wording that matters....and the bottom line is if you accuse someone without proof or call them names which are unfounded and cause them to lose business....then you need to think twice about what you're writing.

Now how about someone adds this to their online magazine "Hey look, I just saw this, xyz is a conman...saw it on ECF. I'd never buy from him!" And that word gets around? The written word will then be damming....to the author of such an accusation. So I for one am glad SJ is taking steps to get a handle on this.

Now if someone wants to say "I got 5 products from xyz and none of them work. I think their products are crap"....that's fine...because that was their experience with it and we all have an opinion on the products we buy, good or bad. But to say they are rip offs and sell bad products....particularly if you have 100 other buyers who are happy with them and could disprove that....then you're just asking for trouble.

Lu

 

[Kate]

When you say there has to be proof ... what do you mean? What if proof is deleted, covered up or otherwise not expected or recognised?

How many times does a con have to be carried out to be called a con or for what duration? Does two months count? A week? Four months? A year?

If I want to put myself on the line and associate myself with an accusation I'll make sure I think the accusation is true. Are you obliged to verify all facts on the internet?

 

[ApOsTle51]

A scammer (or "conman") is generally someone who tries to deceive people to make money....on a regular basis.

Lu

certainly more than one scammer on this forum going by the above quote , evidence is there for all to see.

 

[Kate]

If someone uses a position of trust to manipulate the public for financial gain should we keep quiet about it in case they don't make money from the scheme?

Who should be protected, victims or abusers?

When someone believes they have proof should they have an opportunity to present it?

 

[ZambucaLu]

When you say there has to be proof ... what do you mean? What if proof is deleted, covered up or otherwise not expected or recognised?

How many times does a con have to be carried out to be called a con or for what duration? Does two months count? A week? Four months? A year?

If I want to put myself on the line and associate myself with an accusation I'll make sure I think the accusation is true. Are you obliged to verify all facts on the internet?

If you want to make an accusation, somewhere, someone can call you on the proof...whether it be online or in a court of law. I mean, if you want to call someone a scammer and say you have proof, but not divulge it here, that person you are referring to has a right to pursue that information through legal means.

But personally, when I see someone say that, I tend to pay it no mind only because anybody can say that, but without proof I can see, I can't make an informed decision about that person (or company) either way.

Lu

 

[ZambucaLu]

certainly more than one scammer on this forum going by the above quote , evidence is there for all to see.

And if people can see that this person is being deceitful (which I'm not sure if you're referring to anyone in particular or not)....then they have the right to call them out on that...providing there is the evidence you are referring to.

Lu

 

[Kate]

... when I see someone say that, I tend to pay it no mind only because anybody can say that ...

Some people aren't allowed to say what they believe to be true nor are they given opportunity to prove a contested statement.

Some people are told not to rock the boat even if they believe they have proof of intent to deceive.

So not anybody can say that, only ones that suit the powers that be.

Rights vary depending on who you are here.

 

[ZambucaLu]

If someone uses a position of trust to manipulate the public for financial gain should we keep quiet about it in case they don't make money from the scheme?

Who should be protected, victims or abusers?

When someone believes they have proof should they have an opportunity to present it?

But that's the thing Kate....no, we should not be quiet about it. Again, I am saying it's all on the wording.

Presenting proof is great! Then there's not much to question. But then what? What is the point? You present the proof...people make decisions based on that proof....and they do what they will with it. Then what?

I recenlty made a purchase from a Chinese company I had never done business with....and it turned out to be a big mistake on my part. To make a long story short, it took me a month to get my order....but in the meantime, I had no idea what was going on. No answers to email...a response that it was shipped and I would receive the tracking number the next day. Never happened. And I had all my emails and that response as "proof" of my attempts to either get a viable tracking number or a refund. I finally opened a paypal dispute and got the order.

So what can I legally say about this supplier to a zillion viewers on the net? Just what I said above....and I added that I would never order from there again.

Do you see the difference in calling them a bunch of crooks or rip off artists....or liars...or thieves...or whatever....and what I said above? I'm not accusing them of anything, and I'm not stating anything I don't have proof of. And of course it is my right to not want to do business with them again based on my experience.

It often is a fine line but in the end, to only protect yourself if nothing else....present your proof, let others make their choices, then let it go. Trust me, people will see it for what it is.

Lu

 

[Kate]

In order for the community to make informed decisions we need honest information.

Honest information is sometimes not allowed here, is covered up or discredited.

People who support honest traders and discourage dishonest traders are sometimes victimised.

Proof can only be presented if allowed. I was banned without being allowed to defend against false allegations.

This isn't a haven of safety and justice Lu, this is a meeting place of the good, the bad and the ugly with permissions from a fallible judge with no safeguards.

 

[ZambucaLu]

In order for the community to make informed decisions we need honest information.

Honest information is sometimes not allowed here, is covered up or discredited.

People who support honest traders and discourage dishonest traders are sometimes victimised.

Proof can only be presented if allowed. I was banned without being allowed to defend against false allegations.

This isn't a haven of safety and justice Lu, this is a meeting place of the good, the bad and the ugly with permissions from a fallible judge with no safeguards.

And you know what Kate, maybe you're right. But I'll tell you, forums are run the way the owner wants...period. Forums are not really democracies and there is no rule that says they have to be.

I used to co-own a forum type group myself. Any rules there were set up and enforced by myself and the other owner. The first rule was to follow general group guidelines....language, flaming, etc. Oh yes, people were banned for vulgar language and swearing (and we're not talking about the occasional damn or hell....you probably know what I mean). But we basically wanted to just keep it clean.

In reality, SJ can really do anything he wants here...as long as it follows the guidelines of his server....and there is no server that says you can't ban members or delete things you find inappropriate to your forum.

People think they have "rights" on forums, but they really don't. If the owner feels in any way that something was said that could be detrimental to, or compromise the forum's being...or safety....its members....the server guidelines, etc....yep, he can get rid of it.

That is just the way forums are. And I really have to say here, SJ lets people get away with a lot of stuff I never would have as an owner...nor that I've seen other forum owners do either. I doubt anyone can argue that he really is a "nice guy" and is still learning about all this forum stuff himself.

Lu

 

[Kate]

I've no argument with you there Lu, that sounds like the truth to me.

 

[Kendra]

Do you see the difference in calling them a bunch of crooks or rip off artists....or liars...or thieves...or whatever....and what I said above? I'm not accusing them of anything, and I'm not stating anything I don't have proof of. And of course it is my right to not want to do business with them again based

Hey, thought I'd add my two cents here specifically because of the examples you're posting.

I think that calling someone a liar without explaining WHY they are a liar would be a negative thing. But, the definition of liar is a non-truthteller. So, if there is a seller who fails to tell the truth, that would make him a liar.

I'm not going to dictionary.com to find the exact definition of "thief". But, the common definition is someone who either steals from someone else or or takes property or money from someone else. Sellers who would take money from someone else while not providing the goods to that person would qualify as a thief in my book. If they sell you faulty goods, for instance, and fail to make good on exchanging them for working parts, they would also fall into the category of "thief".

I do think it's reprehensible to call someone a thief or a liar who made an honest mistake. But, someone who fails to acknowledge the mistake, publicly says he's been in touch when he has not (lie), promised he sent the items (lie), then publicly says he'll never send the items (admitted liar) or refund the money (thief) does qualify as a thief and liar in my book.