Rip Off?

[Mr.Darcy]

ok,this has to be brought up...im getting a bit tired of this community,which is made up of very decent people,being continually ripped off by just about every retailer of these devices...and in particular the supposed "premium" brands.its just not on.

we should all be complaining vigorously on this forum about how we are being taken advantage of by almost all of these companies,with their rip off prices...maybe theyll begin to listen.

we seem to be expected to shell out as much as $100-$200 for the basic kit which,lets face it,are pretty simple,unsophisticated things,and are bound to cost peanuts to manufacture in China...and then pay through the nose for carts and liquid,and spares to keep them functional.

now,i dont mind companies making a profit,im not naive,i understand how business works.i know everyone has to have their cut at every stage,and i know there are overheads...but as a consumer,i also know when im being royally screwed.

why are they so expensive?its hard to say really...
paradoxically,it may be because of the very unreliability that annoys us so much...
it seems that we are footing the bill in our purchase price for the replacement parts,and the service and shipping this entails..from us to the retailer-from the retailer to the manufacturer,then back...
and also for the manufacturers inability to provide us with anything but parts which,in their current state,are really nothing but grossly overpriced disposable items...so overpriced that many of us must try to develop cleaning techniques in an effort to revive or prolong the life of atomisers which really have reached the end of their useful life,but were too expensive for us to just bin and replace with the required regularity...

and im sorry,but simply replacing one dodgy part for another which may break just as quickly as the first,and having to wait for that part and so on..that simply isnt good enough in my book..so the so called "great customer service" of premium retailers just isnt enough.

in essence then-are we being made to pay for the manufacturers lack of innovation,and unsophisticated production?

either that,or its just sheer greed,and lack of empathy for the end user.

now,is it the manufacturers who are overcharging the retailers who are in turn overcharging us....or is it more the retailers milking us for as much as they can,while they can,because they can?

ok,we are early adopters,vaping has been around a relatively short time,no part or device will last forever...i know that only too well..but i dont think any of us would mind paying a premium for a relaible device,a better more advanced design,and which made vaping easy to manage...but all we ever get is breaking parts and hassle and frustration,and the same basic flawed design...from the cheapest generic to the kissbox...and the few disposables which have been developed are also flawed and much too expensive to be a viable option...i hope this changes soon.

thats why,for the time being at least,i just use good generics..because the more expensive brands simply arent worth that much more of my hard earned cash,for what amounts to marginally better performance..and some havnt even got that!
i'll save any larger future expenditures for something with significant advancements in design and performance...something which might actually be worth it.

i know some people think we are paying so much currently because we are funding development of these devices...well as i said,im not sure if its the retailer or manufacturer who really drives the end price up,but i suspect the retailer is making a bloody huge profit.the retail prices are exorbitant,and i havnt seen much truly groundbreaking innovation or development since earlier devices so far anyway...it seems to be minor tweaks more than anything.
i know of no other consumer group which would put up with what we have to put up with...its crazy!

so despite what anyone says about the premium brands,they may be good when they are working...but just read this forum,and youll see just as many quality problems with them as with the generics...and to be honest,i havnt seen anything reviewed or anything ive tried (including my own kissbox classic and yentl experiences,and my flatmates sedansa divas),which were significantly that much better in quality,performance,longevity of parts or vapour production to a good DSE901 or RN4072...certainly not enough to justify the hike in price.

the manufacturers of these devices need to get their thinking caps on,and fast.
i really hope future generation ecigs make real leaps in terms of design,price and performance,and will evolve...they need to if they are ever going to become mainstream...if they arent banned first,of course...i wouldnt mind paying a little extra if it went to the manufacturers betterment of ecigs,but not to this extortionate extent...

we're all desperate to find a safer alternative to cigarettes,and we're all addicts...therefore we're very easy prey...and dont they know it!

im quite sure some of you wont agree with me..thats cool...im just stating my own opinion about the current state of play....

 

[leaford]

OK, I guess I'm well known to be of the opposing viewpoint, so I can't exactly stand silent. But I don't really want to get into it again. So I'll try to keep it brief.

One, I do not see how you think saving a few bucks on the starter kit, then buying replacement parts for a year is cheaper. At best, you're spreading the cost out, personally I think in a year you'll spend more. And that's with a GOOD generic.

So far, I've only had one bad experience with a premium brand. Most of mine have worked very well, but with a few parts failures, which were immediatly replaced. Most of my generics/cheap brands, OTOH, have been failures, with only two, Meltrix and Pillbox, working well. If the bad generics offered a guarantee at all, the onus was on me to ship back the bad part first. To me, that right there is worth the $30 more I paid for my Njoy than for a Pillbox or Smokester 4072.

I am not constantly exchanging parts, but when one does go bad, I don't have to worry, and shouldn't have to buy replacements for my premiums for a year. And if I have problems, or they do not honor their guarantee, you'll all hear about it. So far the only people who havent honored their guarantee immediatly is e-cig.com, the ultimate disposable vendor.

Two, while my generic 901 and 4072 work damn well, my Njoy and Sedansa outperform them in vapor production and ease of draw, and my KISSbox and Diva have better battery lives than the 4072. Whether those differences are worth the higher price is up to you, but they are real differences. If the premiums didn't perform any better, if the generics were just as good, I might be on your side.

Three, some of those premium brands have put a lot of effort into their own R&D, or have purchased from manufacturers who have. Either way, that pushes their costs higher than a generic reseller. Again, whether you feel theri efforts or their results are worth it is up to you, but its unfair to imply they all have the same low costs.

Four, appearance counts. Smokester's just coming out with the first generic that's anything but plain white. Premium brands just plain offer more choices.

Lastly, the only good generic seller in the US is Meltrix, and his aren't all that much cheaper either. Easy for you to preach, but with shipping, those generics from the UK aren't much cheaper than the premiums, and replacement parts certainly arent. So, it's not as good an option over here.

That said, I think there's room in the marketplace for both approaches. I've bought a couple generics, and am buying more, with spare parts. I'm interested in the Loong Totem and Greencig 300. Mel has a great idea packaging extra atomizers with his starters. AND, I know for sure if I were ever to go into the business I wouldn't want all the guarantee hassles, and would only sell a disposable model.

 

[karenwest1961]

They don't want us, Mr. Darcy. They want those who have not heard of the e-cig before that WILL shell out the money and are ignorant to the woes that we've all endured already. We're not their customers anymore. There's a whole big world of suckers out there. And if their units fail, and/or they have questions that go unanswered, they may not be as diligent as us and speak up. They'll put them away and pick up the cigs again...and chalk it up as another failure at an attempt to "quit smoking."

If I hadn't wanted to know everything I could and asked Rachel and googled the subject, my Njoy may have been boxed up and put away...and I'd be puffing on a Benson and Hedges menthol light. Why? Because like most people, I'd be too busy to get to the post office and send it back...or call the company before the warranty was up. I have read many articles in Entrepreneur Magazine where many companies bank on people doing that.

Fortunately for us, we have made some friends here who have tried many e-cigs and sell the the ones who perform the best in their opinion..therefore they do their best to take care of us. These are the sellers who deserve our money. And our references.

I have referred many people to Meltrex and Jane. Most from the UK are referring THEIR friends to pillbox. In Canada, it's Shawn from epuffer. That's going to say a lot for the future of this product.

And leaford, I disagree with you about the prices. I have found the independent sellers reasonable with price and shipping. And the speed of the delivery is much better than the bigger names.

Are any of the big companies hearing me on this?

 

[trog100]

i agree entirety mr darcy.. but it seems some people really do feel the need to buy an expensive "name" brand and cannot except the fact that they are being ripped off..

u get what u pay for seems to be the popular creed.. such folks just really cannot accept the fact that cheap can be just as good as expensive.. if it dosnt carry the designer label it isnt worth buying..

your cause is good and worthy.. but it will fall on mostly deaf ears.. i dont mind such companies ripping these people off.. most of them deserve it.. i do mind being thought of and described as some kind of low life cheapskate only buying cheap when i try and point out the "rip-off" factor currently at work..

and sadly this forum apart from a few in the know.. is happily promoting the designer label rip-off merchants..

the likes of me and u are simply seen as cheapskates that are too stupid to know that quality has to be paid for in rip-off prices and cannot be bought on the cheap..

what else enables enables the rip-off merchants to exist in the first place.. peoples desire to have the best.. paying the highest price is the way people who know no better do this.. what else can they do.. a salemans dream.. the more it costs the more people want it.. sad but true..

trog

 

[leaford]

i agree entirety mr darcy.. but it seems some people really do feel the need to buy an expensive "name" brand and cannot except the fact that they are being ripped off..

u get what u pay for seems to be the popular creed.. such folks just really cannot accept the fact that cheap can be just as good as expensive.. if it dosnt carry the designer label it isnt worth buying..

your cause is good and worthy.. but it will fall on mostly deaf ears.. i dont mind such companies ripping these people off.. most of them deserve it.. i do mind being thought of and described as some kind of low life cheapskate only buying cheap when i try and point out the "rip-off" factor currently at work..

and sadly this forum apart from a few in the know.. is happily promoting the designer label rip-off merchants..

the likes of me and u are simply seen as cheapskates that are too stupid to know that quality has to be paid for in rip-off prices and cannot be bought on the cheap..

what else enables enables the rip-off merchants to exist in the first place.. peoples desire to have the best.. paying the highest price is the way people who know no better do this.. what else can they do.. a salemans dream.. the more it costs the more people want it.. sad but true..

trog

Not one word in there supporting the idea that your $60 generics are an objectively better value than the $100-$200 premium brands.

Just a bunch of insults aimed at anyone who supports the opposing view. And a bunch of unfounded speculation as to our reasoning.

I have never called you a cheapskate.

I have a few other things I'd like to call you, though. But there are ladies present.

EDIT: I apologize to Trog and everyone for my tantrum. I was overly sensitive, and hypocritical, considering I teased him, too on another thread. I again apologize.

From another thread:

basically it seems the more i tolerate your personal insults the more u will push.. so can we have a little less piss taking please and a little more respect for your elders and your betters.. he he he

trog

OK, I will apologize for McWrongo. I meant it in a light hearted teasing way, but immediatly turned around a few threads later and got upset at your indirect comments. That's just plain wrong, hypocritical, and oversensitive of me. I apologize 100%.

 

[NerdyCinderella]

Mr.Darcy!​

Okay Darcy and trog, do you think a good way to begin to deal with this problem is establishing a Major Topic or two such as:
"The Most Cost Effective Ecigs"
"The Most Cost Effective Cartridges/Eliquids"​

 

[NerdyCinderella]

Hey Leaford, I think you're just a rich man!

 

[trog100]

leaford do u look to pick arguments with me.. please try and give it up its getting boring..

we have different and opposing world views.. just learn to live with it.. my post never mentioned u why act as if it did.. sadly the generic designer label type i describe does exist.. and yes i do not have much respect for the breed.. but then again the breed dosnt have much respect for me.. pretty much like u dont.. i wonder why...???

trog

 

[NerdyCinderella]

Hey guys don't derail the conversation!
​

Take it outside or create a Thread of your own, i.e., "Trog versus Leaford's World Views"

 

[sanneke]

Not one word in there supporting the idea that your $60 generics are an objectively better value than the $100-$200 premium brands.

Just a bunch of insults aimed at anyone who supports the opposing view. And a bunch of unfounded speculation as to our reasoning.

I have never called you a cheapskate.

I have a few other things I'd like to call you, though. But there are ladies present.

It would be nice if everyone can have an opinion here, and it would be also nice if it does not get personable.

Name calling........
Ladies or no ladies here, it's not necessary.

Trog was not talking to you, it was in general.

 

[leaford]

Did I "pick a fight" with Mr. Darcy? No, because he didn't insult those who disagree with him. He stated his reasoningg and invited debate. I stated mine, and invited a response.

That's called civil discourse.

You and I do have different viewpoints. So do Mr. Darcy and I. That's not why you piss me off. Cracks like your last sentance are. You imply an insult, then when called, you say, I didn't mention you, why are you getting upset? Do you really think that's so clever? That's schoolyard.

This forum and this marketplace are big enough for different views. I am willing to discuss them without slinging insults. Tell you what, I won't say that anyone who prefers generics is cheap (which I never have done anyway), if you don't say that those who buy brands are too stupid to know they're being ripped off.

EDIT: I apologize to Trog and everyone for my tantrum. I was overly sensitive, and hypocritical, considering I teased him, too on another thread. I again apologize.

From another thread:

basically it seems the more i tolerate your personal insults the more u will push.. so can we have a little less piss taking please and a little more respect for your elders and your betters.. he he he

trog

OK, I will apologize for McWrongo. I meant it in a light hearted teasing way, but immediatly turned around a few threads later and got upset at your indirect comments. That's just plain wrong, hypocritical, and oversensitive of me. I apologize 100%.

 

[leaford]

Hey guys don't derail the conversation!​

Take it outside or create a Thread of your own, i.e., "Trog versus Leaford's World Views"

I'm sorry, but I am calling out of line remarks as I see them. If he wants to discuss the merits of the issue, as Darcy, Karen and I started to, great. If he wants to sling insulting generalizations, I will protest.

It would be nice if everyone can have an opinion here, and it would be also nice if it does not get personable.

Name calling........
Ladies or no ladies here, it's not necessary.

Trog was not talking to you, it was in general.

Yes, it would be nice, which is what I tried to do.

And, he said it in general, but that implies the particulars. If I said all cats are stupid, wouldn't that include YOUR cat, even if I didn't name it?

EDIT: I apologize to Trog and everyone for my tantrum. I was overly sensitive, and hypocritical, considering I teased him, too on another thread. I again apologize.

From another thread:

basically it seems the more i tolerate your personal insults the more u will push.. so can we have a little less piss taking please and a little more respect for your elders and your betters.. he he he

trog

OK, I will apologize for McWrongo. I meant it in a light hearted teasing way, but immediatly turned around a few threads later and got upset at your indirect comments. That's just plain wrong, hypocritical, and oversensitive of me. I apologize 100%.

 

[NerdyCinderella]

This is all your fault Mr.Darcy

just kidding​

 

[leaford]

And leaford, I disagree with you about the prices. I have found the independent sellers reasonable with price and shipping. And the speed of the delivery is much better than the bigger names.

Well, I am not knocking the independant sellers (and I like that better than 'generic sellers', thanks). But the difference for us isn't as great as over there. 30-35GBP ($60-70) for a generic versus 100EU ($175 or so) for an Njoy or Janty is a bigger gap than $80 for Mel's versus $100-110 for an Njoy or Smartfix. They can save $100, I can save $30.

Sedansa or Ruyan are a whole different league, though. My Sedansa impressed me, but I'm not really sure it's worth the $200 total.

Value, in the end, is subjective. But I digress...

 

[leaford]

This is all your fault Mr.Darcy

Not at all. It is a discussion we should have, and Mr. Darcy started it right.

 

[leaford]

Hey Leaford, I think you're just a rich man!

Nah, I'm just a one-man "Double Income No Kids" family.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

Leaford,im not preaching to anyone,im simply telling it like it is mate...whether you have good generic sellers in the USA or not,it doesnt change the fact that we are paying much more for the premium devices than is fair,whether in Europe or the USA.

im afraid that if we adopt the attitude that we'll pay whatevers asked without protest,then the big premium brand companies,and the USA rebranders will continue to rip their customers off and get away with it...and perhaps get even worse.

as for spares...well,it actually doesnt work out any more expensive for me personally(i know its expensive in the USA,i'll address that later in the post),and id rather be in control of my own esmoking destiny,and keep spares,rather than go through the endless posting and waiting cycle mate...its much less frustrating..i mean its ok for you or i,who have plenty of ecigs in reserve to do the whole return thing,but what about those who have only one or two ecigs?

i can gauge the frustration on this forum,and its not good enough...thats what i was driving at...of course you need some good cheap generic sellers in the USA,because you are lumbered with over expensive rebrands mostly,which clearly isnt making the consumer happy..but as long as people continue to pay the big prices,then why sell cheaper?

thats a problem,and that may be one of the reasons why you have nobody selling cheap generics at a reasonable price in the USA...and id rather have that than a year of "good customer service".

as for performance differences,well ive tried plenty cheap and expensive,the best and the worst,just like you have...and IMHO the difference in performance of a good generic and the premiums isnt worth the difference in price....not to me anyway...
as for appearance,well i smoked white fags for years,and it didnt bother me...i do like a nice looking ecig,but to me performance wins over looks every time.

i guess people have different expectations of what they get for their buck...if people are happy to continue to pay through the nose,well more power to them,its their money...i just wont be one of them...

i dont think this community should continue to pay whatever is asked from these shylocks without protest..im just registering my objection,because i believe the current prices are unfairly high,particularly for the american rebrands and worldwide premium brands.thats what i think.

like i said,if anyone doesnt agree,this is a friendly forum...lets debate it.

 

[NerdyCinderella]

Well, I am not knocking the independant sellers (and I like that better than 'generic sellers', thanks). But the difference for us isn't as great as over there. 30-35GBP ($60-70) for a generic versus 100EU ($175 or so) for an Njoy or Janty is a bigger gap than $80 for Mel's versus $100-110 for an Njoy or Smartfix. They can save $100, I can save $30.......

leaford, could you be clearer here?
I think you are saying that the savings are different for those who buy in Europe and for those who purchase in the US.
And I'm not sure about the differences betw generic and independents sellers.

 

[sanneke]

Leaford, You now can buy a kiss starter box in the usa for $ 108.00.

 

[jarvis]

So I guess people who are buying njoys and jantys are paying a 100 + dollars for a product that cost a fraction of that to produce on the grounds that they are paying for the good customer service to return the atomizer that unquestionably will burn out eventually. I guess it would be worth it at the tenth atomizer they replace (my spare atomizers are 7 dollars, unit cost 40). The bottom line is, I would gladly pay 200 dollars for a device that is permanent, but there are none on the market.