Scared of batteries exploding

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BillW50

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The Long De Li New Energy Company, Ltd made those batteries, in some sort of financial relationship with Aspire, using standard 18650 cells. There’s nothing different about their construction or chemistry to make them any safer than any 18650 with a similar chemistry...of which there are dozens.
Construction and chemistry, yes I agree there. But did you ever seen that video? I only had seen it when Busardo released it so hopefully my memory is still right. Sure they take a sample or two from a batch and crush them to make sure they can handle X amount of force before they fail and other tests.

But what is done with all of them are tests during charge and discharges. Probably no different any other battery company. But according to the video and I don't know if it is true or not, if there is enough moisture in the battery before they are sealed can make them volatile and a danger to bursting into flames during actual use. And Aspire bakes them for two or was it three months to weed out any cells with moisture problems. I guess the ones that fail will burst.

Busardo walked into that oven and filmed it and I don't recall exactly what temperature they said it was. So it isn't high enough that a human can't stand or anything for short periods. But Mooch, are you saying this is also standard practice of other Li-Ion battery manufactures?
 
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BillW50

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There is nothing in a regulated device that would prevent you from using a low amp (cdr) battery and cranking up the wattage over what the battery can safely handle.
Really? A regulated mod will shut down if the battery sag drops too far. And if it is close will report the battery is too weak. A low amp battery has lots of things against it. High internal resistance which also causes high battery sag for one at higher amperage.

I hear a lot of other people say that any regulated mod won't fire with batteries that can't handle it. I never argue with these people because I really can't think of an example where this isn't true. Although I still hold out that I still don't know everything and there might be a case or two which that isn't true. But generally speaking, I really can't disagree with it.
 
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Ablonz

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I think it's very unwise to demand more than the CDR from any battery. I don't even think it's a good idea to reach the CDR. First there's the risk of accidental continuous discharge - a button held down on a mech or an autofiring regulated mod. Then there's the fact that the CDR's only valid with a young battery in good condition, and we have no practical way of testing that. The knowledgeable users I'm familiar with all start with the CDR and then, instead of exceeding it, add a decent safety margin and make very sure they stay under it.
I am one of those people that make my build with overhead on CDR example: .3 ohm build (14 amp continuous on a 20 amp battery).
 

BrotherBob

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Hello!
Thanks everyone for the info, feels good to know that i can vape up to 120W without being worried, im pretty sure the batteries are "real". I bought them from a swedish vendor and they are very strict with fake products. Again Thanks. Feel free to keep telling tips on this thread since im new to the "build ur own" vape world!
Welcome and glad you joined.
The information below, along with the preceding replies, may shed some light on your concern.
New FDA Study on Battery-Related Injuries from Vaping - Vaping360
 

Mooch

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    Construction and chemistry, yes I agree there. But did you ever seen that video? I only had seen it when Busardo released it so hopefully my memory is still right. Sure they take a sample or two from a batch and crush them to make sure they can handle X amount of force before they fail and other tests.

    But what is done with all of them are tests during charge and discharges. Probably no different any other battery company. But according to the video and I don't know if it is true or not, if there is enough moisture in the battery before they are sealed can make them volatile and a danger to bursting into flames during actual use. And Aspire bakes them for two or was it three months to weed out any cells with moisture problems. I guess the ones that fail will burst.

    Busardo walked into that oven and filmed it and I don't recall exactly what temperature they said it was. So it isn't high enough that a human can't stand or anything for short periods. But Mooch, are you saying this is also standard practice of other Li-Ion battery manufactures?

    Yes.

    That wasn’t an oven, just a temp-controlled room. Batteries are hermetically sealed when the organic solvent electrolyte is added at the end of the manufacturing cycle. There is no drying out.

    If there is good enough quality control in manufacture then there is no need to monitor a cell for two months. Long De Li’s manufacturing is open to moisture and contaminants. This is something you would never, ever see at Samsung, Sony, LG, etc. They used filtered, environmentally controlled facilities as contaminants are deadly for a battery.

    Those crush tests are standard for any cell from Samsung, Sony, etc. check out UN38.3, EN/IEC62133, and the other international safety standards. This is standard testing and all the big manufacturer batteries pass the same tests...without aging to find defective cells. :)
     

    Mr. Relentless

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    There is nothing in a regulated device that would prevent you from using a low amp (cdr) battery and cranking up the wattage over what the battery can safely handle.
    There is nothing in a regulated device that would prevent you from using a low amp (cdr) battery and cranking up the wattage over what the battery can safely handle.
    Wouldn't over temp protection prevent batteries from over heating.
     

    BillW50

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    If there is good enough quality control in manufacture then there is no need to monitor a cell for two months. Long De Li’s manufacturing is open to moisture and contaminants. This is something you would never, ever see at Samsung, Sony, LG, etc. They used filtered, environmentally controlled facilities as contaminants are deadly for a battery.

    I have found no evidence for this no need at all. As there was a lawsuit against an eBay seller a few months ago who sold one Florida customer Efest batteries. And one battery exploded and the user suffered 48k in medical bills. The attorney claimed Efest buys their batteries from Sony and Panasonic and just rewraps them. So what went wrong there?

    Just today Mattykinss only had two recharges on their LGs and looked to what happened! They are thinking of never vaping again!

    r/electronic_cigarette - This was a close one. My Voopoo Drag exploded in my hand

    So I see a huge need for temperature testing each cell that is going to be used for vaping. As so far Sony or Panasonic, and LG all have failed. I am still waiting for reports for an exploding Aspire cells, but I haven't found any reports yet in the last four years. So just maybe, they are doing something right that others are missing.
     
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    BillW50

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    If there is good enough quality control in manufacture then there is no need to monitor a cell for two months. Long De Li’s manufacturing is open to moisture and contaminants. This is something you would never, ever see at Samsung, Sony, LG, etc. They used filtered, environmentally controlled facilities as contaminants are deadly for a battery.

    You didn't even watch Busardo's video did you? There are no open moisture and contaminants where the cells are manufactured in that Yongdeli Battery Factory plant.

     
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    BillW50

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    Overtemp protection only protects the regulator circuit. It has no idea what the battery temperature is.

    Yes, but the battery gets cooled by air inside the mod. And the board cools down by the same air inside of the mod. And I can tell you from four years of vaping, if either the board or the battery gets hotter, so does the other. Sure it probably won't reach the same temperatures, but both does heat up if one gets warmer.

    I've done this dozens of times. When I chain vape sometimes the mod gets warm. And I'm thinking something has to be really hot inside to raise the outside of the mod by about 10°F. Of course I'm concerned and pop out the cells and check the temperatures with one of my IR temperature probes. And the cells are usually only 100°F to like 105°F. So that isn't normally anything to worry about. And the board is almost always nearly as warm too.
     

    chellie

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    Hello!
    Thanks everyone for the info, feels good to know that i can vape up to 120W without being worried, im pretty sure the batteries are "real". I bought them from a swedish vendor and they are very strict with fake products. Again Thanks. Feel free to keep telling tips on this thread since im new to the "build ur own" vape world!
    You do have to be very careful with batteries. I checked on here, too, before I purchased mine and I know some of the technical details can be overwhelming.

    In addition to knowing battery limitations - I only purchase from the recommended suppliers listed here at ECF and I follow some very basic tips that I learned

    -- do not charge in the mod -- use an external charger
    -- never leave charging batteries unattended --- ever and remove them once they are charged and put in mod or in a plastic case.
    -- wait an hour after batteries have charged before using them
    -- if the battery is dented, do not use and appropriately dispose of it
    -- inspect the battery wrap regularly. If it is torn rewrap it (easy) or appropriately dispose of it
    -- never keep batteries loose --keep them in mod or in plastic cases (the only other place they should be is in the charger).
    -- once the battery starts to not charge as well - it is time to purchase new batteries.
    -- use caution in extreme heat or cold situations
    -- if the battery, while it is in the mod, gets hot (not warm --hot) use extreme caution -- either turn it off if possible or remove the batteries (s) and then appropriately dispose of. (Or if that happens and if you are like me which is extremely paranoid bring it outside away from heat and anything flammable and very gingerly remove the batteries, put them in plastic cases and appropriately dispose of)

    Lots of people know their stuff here. The 2 users that offer excellent info are battery mooch (the guru) and badattitude who patiently explains everything, provides really easy charts to follow and it is in very easy-to-understand language. I have saved the charts and use them when I make purchases.

    I save a ton of money (over smoking analogs) in the long run by vaping and building my own coils. The one thing I will never ever skimp on is batteries and I purchase them on a regular basis.
     

    Mooch

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    I have found no evidence for this no need at all. As there was a lawsuit against an eBay seller a few months ago who sold one Florida customer Efest batteries. And one battery exploded and the user suffered 48k in medical bills. The attorney claimed Efest buys their batteries from Sony and Panasonic and just rewraps them. So what went wrong there?

    Just today Mattykinss only had two recharges on their LGs and looked to what happened! They are thinking of never vaping again!

    r/electronic_cigarette - This was a close one. My Voopoo Drag exploded in my hand

    So I see a huge need for temperature testing each cell that is going to be used for vaping. As so far Sony or Panasonic, and LG all have failed. I am still waiting for reports for an exploding Aspire cells, but I haven't found any reports yet in the last four years. So just maybe, they are doing something right that others are missing.

    Batteries don’t just explode on their own. Why is it happening so often to vapers and not to the rest of the world this often? Because we misuse and mishandle them. Not because we’re careless or uncaring about things, because of the design of these batteries and devices.

    Millions and millions of rounds cells are made and used every year with only a few scattered reports of problems. Most of those problems end up being caused by external issues too.

    The batteries we use are not meant for use outside of a protected battery pack and have risks because of that. Sliding them in an out of mods and chargers, using these inexpensive external chargers, terrible USB charger quality, etc. These all increase the risk of trouble.

    Because these cells were designed only for use inside a battery pack they are quite susceptible to their wraps and top ring insulators being damaged. This risk is made all the worse by poor mod and charger design.

    Temperature testing every battery wouldn’t find internal faults. Other tests can be done and usually are before every battery leaves the factory. You need the testing in order to grade the cells. Lower grade cells are not dangerous cells. A lower grade LG HG2could easily have been sold as an A Grade 15A 2800mAh cell instead. Lower grade cells just have lower performance.

    Aspire cells get used MUCH less often than other cells. That will significantly reduce the number of any reports you might find.
     
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    Mooch

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    You didn't even watch Busardo's video did you? There are no open moisture and contaminants where the cells are manufactured in that Yongdeli Battery Factory plant.



    Please watch that video again. That is not an environmentally controlled room. Good grief, there are windows in the coating room!

    Atmospheric moisture and contaminants were there in abundance.
     
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    Mooch

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    Yes, but the battery gets cooled by air inside the mod. And the board cools down by the same air inside of the mod. And I can tell you from four years of vaping, if either the board or the battery gets hotter, so does the other. Sure it probably won't reach the same temperatures, but both does heat up if one gets warmer.

    I've done this dozens of times. When I chain vape sometimes the mod gets warm. And I'm thinking something has to be really hot inside to raise the outside of the mod by about 10°F. Of course I'm concerned and pop out the cells and check the temperatures with one of my IR temperature probes. And the cells are usually only 100°F to like 105°F. So that isn't normally anything to worry about. And the board is almost always nearly as warm too.

    The convection current inside a mod have an inconsequential effect on battery temperature. There is also almost zero transfer of air in/out of the mod. Of course, some heat does get transferred, mostly by conduction and radiation, but the battery temperature can be MUCH higher than the board temperature, or the other way around, due to the extremely low thermal coupling between the two.

    IR guns can be problematic when used with metallic items due to their low emissivity. You need to take the field of view of the IR gun into account too.

    Of course, the temperatures of a board and battery will start to merge over time but set up a thermocouple of other probe that can measure both as you vape and monitor the temperatures as you do so. A crappy battery can get to a much higher temperature. The inside of a battery cane easily be over 50°C hotter than the outside too when being discharged hard.
     

    BillW50

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    Batteries don’t just explode on their own. Why is it happening so often to vapers and not to the rest of the world this often? Because we misuse and mishandle them. Not because we’re careless or uncaring about things, because of the design of these batteries and devices.

    Millions and millions of rounds cells are made and used every year with only a few scattered reports of problems. Most of those problems end up being caused by external issues too.

    Look, there is a video I saw on youtube a few years back and I am sure it is probably still there. This shop charged up a RC lipo and when charge was completed, they disconnected it from the RC charger and just sat it on the counter. Nobody was near it or anything and I guess the security camera recorded all of this. But about 30 minutes later the lipo just suddenly burst into flames. How could that happen? My guess is somehow chemically, the lipo went into thermal runaway.

    Another thing, shipping lithium batteries has many restrictions. The big fear is they are suddenly going to burst into flames. But why should they worry if what you say is true? They are usually well packaged, stored at storage charge and as long as a forklift driver or something doesn't run a fork into the box of cells, it should be alright, no? Apparently not, as they can still suddenly burst into flames anyway.

    The batteries we use are not meant for use outside of a protected battery pack and have risks because of that. Sliding them in an out of mods and chargers, using these inexpensive external chargers, terrible USB charger quality, etc. These all increase the risk of trouble.

    Because these cells were designed only for use inside a battery pack they are quite susceptible to their wraps and top ring insulators being damaged. This risk is made all the worse by poor mod and charger design.

    Yeah I hear you say this all of the time and it is true of many manufactures. Even though there are flashlights and things like computer mice that uses lower amperage lithium cylinder type cells too (i.e. 18650 and other sizes). Some of those batteries have button tops. I don't actually see button top batteries of actually being used in battery packs (you could but why?). Sadly button top cells used for vaping are rare in the vaping community.

    And what about Aspire? They are co-owners of Yongdeli Battery Factory and have total say in how their cells are manufactured. And the reason why they bought part of the Yongdeli Battery Factory is because they didn't trust other battery manufactures to provide safe vaping cells. Aspire could have teamed up with Sony, Samsung, LG, or anybody. But Aspire didn't trust them to make them safe. It's all in Busardo's video.

    And where does Aspire think their cells are going to be used? They believe the majority are going to be used for vaping of course. Unlike other manufactures who say don't use for vaping, Aspire says it is ok to use for vaping. That is a big difference. Aspire also expects the user to swap cells a lot and uses some really tough wraps. Something you need for heavy swapping.

    Temperature testing every battery wouldn’t find internal faults. Other tests can be done and usually are before every battery leaves the factory. You need the testing in order to grade the cells. Lower grade cells are not dangerous cells. A lower grade LG HG2could easily have been sold as an A Grade 15A 2800mAh cell instead. Lower grade cells just have lower performance.

    Temperature testing will find some internal faults. First higher temperatures causes cells to expand. But cylinder cells like 18650 can't expand as they are tightly wrapped. But the pressure is still there. And if two plates are a little too close which might go unnoticed until a vaper starts to chain vape, or caught during temperature testing. So I think temperature testing is just another step to make these bombs safer.

    Yes I am well aware of grading manufactured products. Heck, there is a rumor that since Walmart insists in paying less for Energizer batteries, Energizer sells them their lower grade batteries (you can't tell by the packaging). I think I read that in Consumer Reports or somewhere.

    Aspire cells get used MUCH less often than other cells. That will significantly reduce the number of any reports you might find.

    True, but all I need is one or two examples to make me rethink that maybe Aspire isn't on to something. But so far, I got nothing.
     
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    BillW50

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    Please watch that video again. That is not an environmentally controlled room. Good grief, there are windows in the coating room!

    Atmospheric moisture and contaminants were there in abundance.

    What is the clean room for and why before the cells are sealed, they sit in overs which the humility is kept super low? And remember they ran the factory during Chinese New Year and had things running just for the making of the video. And all of the cells being made were recycled and ended up in nobody's mod. It says this in the video.
     
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    BillW50

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    The convection current inside a mod have an inconsequential effect on battery temperature. There is also almost zero transfer of air in/out of the mod. Of course, some heat does get transferred, mostly by conduction and radiation, but the battery temperature can be MUCH higher than the board temperature, or the other way around, due to the extremely low thermal coupling between the two.

    Absolutely! There are some really great videos and x-ray videos of lithium cells going into thermal runaway. And how they got x-rays video with color coded temperatures inside, I don't know. But the center is almost always the hottest. Unless the outer plates got crushed or something.

    IR guns can be problematic when used with metallic items due to their low emissivity. You need to take the field of view of the IR gun into account too.

    Sure! I am well aware of this and you can calibrate them to be dead on. But even without calibration they are still very close. So even if my IR says the outside of the cell is 105.3°F and it is really 107.8°F, isn't going to make me nervous at all.

    Of course, the temperatures of a board and battery will start to merge over time but set up a thermocouple of other probe that can measure both as you vape and monitor the temperatures as you do so. A crappy battery can get to a much higher temperature. The inside of a battery cane easily be over 50°C hotter than the outside too when being discharged hard.

    Of course. But even knowing just the outside temperatures and I've seen outside battery temperatures of 120°F to 130°F and none of them ever went into thermal runaway yet. I remember reading somewhere that the standard for lithium batteries is that they must hold back something like 450PSI before the seals blow. Geez! Why so high? 450PSI could shoot the cell off like a rocket.
     
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    Mooch

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    Look, there is a video I saw on youtube a few years back and I am sure it is probably still there. This shop charged up a RC lipo and when charge was completed, they disconnected it from the RC charger and just sat it on the counter. Nobody was near it or anything and I guess the security camera recorded all of this. But about 30 minutes later the lipo just suddenly burst into flames. How could that happen? My guess is somehow chemically, the lipo went into thermal runaway.

    Another thing, shipping lithium batteries has many restrictions. The big fear is they are suddenly going to burst into flames. But why should they worry if what you say is true? They are usually well packaged, stored at storage charge and as long as a forklift driver or something doesn't run a fork into the box of cells, it should be alright, no? Apparently not, as they can still suddenly burst into flames anyway.



    Yeah I hear you say this all of the time and it is true of many manufactures. Even though there are flashlights and things like computer mice that uses lower amperage lithium cylinder type cells too (i.e. 18650 and other sizes). Some of those batteries have button tops. I don't actually see button top batteries of actually being used in battery packs (you could but why?). Sadly button top cells used for vaping are rare in the vaping community.

    And what about Aspire? They are co-owners of Yongdeli Battery Factory and have total say in how their cells are manufactured. And the reason why they bought part of the Yongdeli Battery Factory is because they didn't trust other battery manufactures to provide safe vaping cells. Aspire could have teamed up with Sony, Samsung, LG, or anybody. But Aspire didn't trust them to make them safe. It's all in Busardo's video.

    And where does Aspire think their cells are going to be used? They believe the majority are going to be used for vaping of course. Unlike other manufactures who say don't use for vaping, Aspire says it is ok to use for vaping. That is a big difference. Aspire also expects the user to swap cells a lot and uses some really tough wraps. Something you need for heavy swapping.



    Temperature testing will find some internal faults. First higher temperatures causes cells to expand. But cylinder cells like 18650 can't expand as they are tightly wrapped. But the pressure is still there. And if two plates are a little too close which might go unnoticed until a vaper starts to chain vape, or caught during temperature testing. So I think temperature testing is just another step to make these bombs safer.

    Yes I am well aware of grading manufactured products. Heck, there is a rumor that since Walmart insists in paying less for Energizer batteries, Energizer sells them their lower grade batteries (you can't tell by the packaging). I think I read that in Consumer Reports or somewhere.



    True, but all I need is one or two examples to make me rethink that maybe Aspire isn't on to something. But so far, I got nothing.
    Look, there is a video I saw on youtube a few years back and I am sure it is probably still there. This shop charged up a RC lipo and when charge was completed, they disconnected it from the RC charger and just sat it on the counter. Nobody was near it or anything and I guess the security camera recorded all of this. But about 30 minutes later the lipo just suddenly burst into flames. How could that happen? My guess is somehow chemically, the lipo went into thermal runaway.

    Another thing, shipping lithium batteries has many restrictions. The big fear is they are suddenly going to burst into flames. But why should they worry if what you say is true? They are usually well packaged, stored at storage charge and as long as a forklift driver or something doesn't run a fork into the box of cells, it should be alright, no? Apparently not, as they can still suddenly burst into flames anyway.



    Yeah I hear you say this all of the time and it is true of many manufactures. Even though there are flashlights and things like computer mice that uses lower amperage lithium cylinder type cells too (i.e. 18650 and other sizes). Some of those batteries have button tops. I don't actually see button top batteries of actually being used in battery packs (you could but why?). Sadly button top cells used for vaping are rare in the vaping community.

    And what about Aspire? They are co-owners of Yongdeli Battery Factory and have total say in how their cells are manufactured. And the reason why they bought part of the Yongdeli Battery Factory is because they didn't trust other battery manufactures to provide safe vaping cells. Aspire could have teamed up with Sony, Samsung, LG, or anybody. But Aspire didn't trust them to make them safe. It's all in Busardo's video.

    And where does Aspire think their cells are going to be used? They believe the majority are going to be used for vaping of course. Unlike other manufactures who say don't use for vaping, Aspire says it is ok to use for vaping. That is a big difference. Aspire also expects the user to swap cells a lot and uses some really tough wraps. Something you need for heavy swapping.



    Temperature testing will find some internal faults. First higher temperatures causes cells to expand. But cylinder cells like 18650 can't expand as they are tightly wrapped. But the pressure is still there. And if two plates are a little too close which might go unnoticed until a vaper starts to chain vape, or caught during temperature testing. So I think temperature testing is just another step to make these bombs safer.

    Yes I am well aware of grading manufactured products. Heck, there is a rumor that since Walmart insists in paying less for Energizer batteries, Energizer sells them their lower grade batteries (you can't tell by the packaging). I think I read that in Consumer Reports or somewhere.



    True, but all I need is one or two examples to make me rethink that maybe Aspire isn't on to something. But so far, I got nothing.

    LiPo’s are a completely different story. Their chemistry is different than the round cells we use. They have a lower thermal runaway threshold temperature and their reaction temperatures are a lot higher.

    If you feel that a company, Aspire, that needs to store their cells for two months to catch their bad cells is one you want to support then you should definitely do it! Just understand that none of the major manufacturers need to do that because of their superior quality control.

    That kind of storage is very inexpensive and is nothing any other company would even consider doing unless necessary because of lack of control of the variables in manufacturing.

    I’ll support the companies that don’t need to do that. The ones that have decades of reliable, safe battery manufacturing experience under the belt, used by hundreds of major manufacturers for internal cells by the millions, and who have astoundingly low failure rates for round cells...which have nothing to do with pouch LiPo’s.

    But I know we feel differently about all this and I respect that.
     
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