Scared of batteries exploding

[Mooch]

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Sorry about the duplicate posts. Something very weird going on today with my www access.


Edited - Merged them

 

[Mooch]

What is the clean room for and why before the cells are sealed, they sit in overs which the humility is kept super low? And remember they ran the factory during Chinese New Year and had things running just for the making of the video. And all of the cells being made were recycled and ended up in nobody's mod. It says this in the video.

Controlled environments are required to reduce the failure rates. It prevents entrapment of moisture and particulate contamination. This is why the major manufacturers have such low failure rates and don’t need to watch their cells for two months to see which catch fire.

It doesn’t matter when those cells in the video were made. They are manufactured in an uncontrolled environment....an astoundingly bad idea for battery manufacturing consistency. Hence the need to watch them for two months to catch the ones which ignite.

Absolutely! There are some really great videos and x-ray videos of lithium cells going into thermal runaway. And how they got x-rays video with color coded temperatures inside, I don't know. But the center is almost always the hottest. Unless the outer plates got crushed or something.



Sure! I am well aware of this and you can calibrate them to be dead on. But even without calibration they are still very close. So even if my IR says the outside of the cell is 105.3°F and it is really 107.8°F, isn't going to make me nervous at all.



Of course. But even knowing just the outside temperatures and I've seen outside battery temperatures of 120°F to 130°F and none of them ever went into thermal runaway yet. I remember reading somewhere that the standard for lithium batteries is that they must hold back something like 450PSI before the seals blow. Geez! Why so high? 450PSI could shoot the cell off like a rocket.

Runaway happens at over 130°C all the way up to 270°C, depending on the chemistry and operating environment for the cell. Almost every day I bring a cell up to, and sometimes wY over, 100°C. Occasionally this trips the internal PTC or CID protection due to the internal temps being so much hotter but no where near thermal runaway. That typically takes a short circuit.

Internal temperatures can easily be over 50°C hotter than the external temperature at high discharge rates. I had a cell fail today when discharged at its claimed 40A rating and its external temperature only hit 57°C when it failed.

My IR gun tests on bare cells showed up to a 20°C difference in readings between the IR gun and a thermocouple, with the gun reading low. Different wraps had different degrees of effectiveness depending on their thickness and emissivity. A thin coat of matte black paint on the bare cell creates the surface these IR guns are calibrated for, about 95% emissivity.

 

[BillW50]

Oh man I was just going to bed. Oh well.

LiPo’s are a completely different story. Their chemistry is different than the round cells we use. They have a lower thermal runaway threshold temperature and their reaction temperatures are a lot higher.

Well lipo's are somewhat different and they are used a lot with many DNA mods and a few others. And yes the chemistry is a little different and the packaging is a lot different (they live in a poly bag vs. a tin can). And the internal resistance is almost lower, thus lower battery sag with higher current. Although almost never as convenient as cylinder cells. Besides the above, they are pretty similar.

If you feel that a company, Aspire, that needs to store their cells for two months to catch their bad cells is one you want to support then you should definitely do it! Just understand that none of the major manufacturers need to do that because of their superior quality control.

That kind of storage is very inexpensive and is nothing any other company would even consider doing unless necessary because of lack of control of the variables in manufacturing.

No, I don't know if Aspire's method has a big payoff or not yet. I only use Aspire 26650 cells myself (they seem almost as good as anything else out there) and I generally stick to Samsung 25R and Sony VTC5 for 18650s. But maybe I should try some Aspire 18650s too. I'm sure their wraps are fine, but I doubt the performance will match what I am using now.

I’ll support the companies that don’t need to do that. The ones that have decades of reliable, safe battery manufacturing experience under the belt, used by hundreds of major manufacturers for internal cells by the millions, and who have astoundingly low failure rates for round cells...which have nothing to do with pouch LiPo’s.

But I know we feel differently about all this and I respect that.

I don't know Mooch. I am pretty open minded and while I don't know enough to know if Aspire has this stuff figured out better than myself or not (they have more money than I do at least). But most battery manufactures are stuck doing things one way and that is it. And I don't see this is being good either. As there is no scientific proof that theirs is the best.

There are other lithium types that I think would be better and safer for vapers. One is the LiFe type. I am sure you know this but others reading this may not. And instead of having a battery life of 200 to 600 cycles, LiFe can have up to 8000 cycles. And they are far more safer than IMR batteries which most of us use today. I know the DNA200 can use them (their voltage is like 0.5v lower than IMR), but I can't think of any other mods that can use them offhand.

 

[Mooch]

Oh man I was just going to bed. Oh well.



Well lipo's are somewhat different and they are used a lot with many DNA mods and a few others. And yes the chemistry is a little different and the packaging is a lot different (they live in a poly bag vs. a tin can). And the internal resistance is almost lower, thus lower battery sag with higher current. Although almost never as convenient as cylinder cells. Besides the above, they are pretty similar.



No, I don't know if Aspire's method has a big payoff or not yet. I only use Aspire 26650 cells myself (they seem almost as good as anything else out there) and I generally stick to Samsung 25R and Sony VTC5 for 18650s. But maybe I should try some Aspire 18650s too. I'm sure their wraps are fine, but I doubt the performance will match what I am using now.



I don't know Mooch. I am pretty open minded and while I don't know enough to know if Aspire has this stuff figured out better than myself or not (they have more money than I do at least). But most battery manufactures are stuck doing things one way and that is it. And I don't see this is being good either. As there is no scientific proof that theirs is the best.

There are other lithium types that I think would be better and safer for vapers. One is the LiFe type. I am sure you know this but others reading this may not. And instead of having a battery life of 200 to 600 cycles, LiFe can have up to 8000 cycles. And they are far more safer than IMR batteries which most of us use today. I know the DNA200 can use them (their voltage is like 0.5v lower than IMR), but I can't think of any other mods that can use them offhand.

Agreed...LFP (the acronym I know them by) chemistry has the highest thermal runaway threshold temperature and the lowest temperature of reaction once in runaway, i.e., the reaction is less violent.

Their low nominal voltage (unusable for non-DNA regulated mods) and low energy density (low capacity for their size) are the trade off though. But for series mechs they are a great option. I recently tested a fantastic performing Enercig 26650 LFP cell.

 

[Edward Denison]

Hello!
So i have read online that there is people who gotten their faced blown off by vape batteries and this is thanks to the amp limit in the batteries (correct?) Well im scared and i want to know if my setup is good and i should not worry

Mod: Voopoo Drag 157W
RTA: VandyVape Kensei
Coils: Clapton coil 0.85ohm (im doing dual so 0.42ohm) (Wattage mode)
Batteries 2x: LG HG2

When i press fire button it says 4,6 volts and i dont really understand what it means. Im vaping at 50W on this build and get good taste and vapor is medium hot. still worried about it. Should be safe right?
Thanks

One newbie to another, this is what happens when the mod fails. None of what we are doing is 100% safe. All I can say at this point is don't buy cheap gear.

 

[Coyote628]

Hello!
So i have read online that there is people who gotten their faced blown off by vape batteries and this is thanks to the amp limit in the batteries (correct?) Well im scared and i want to know if my setup is good and i should not worry

Mod: Voopoo Drag 157W
RTA: VandyVape Kensei
Coils: Clapton coil 0.85ohm (im doing dual so 0.42ohm) (Wattage mode)
Batteries 2x: LG HG2

When i press fire button it says 4,6 volts and i dont really understand what it means. Im vaping at 50W on this build and get good taste and vapor is medium hot. still worried about it. Should be safe right?
Thanks

I use the voopoo drag too. Ive got a limitless plus rdta with dual coils i made from 26ga kanthal, twisted. The resistance is .37ohms and i vape this at 80-100watts, depending on how fast i want to drain off my batteries. 100watts wont let the batteries go all day but it does make an awesome flavor and cloud. I also use a wotofo bravo rta when i want something a little different. The set up youve described should be fine. Just make sure your batteries are good quality. The drag is regulated and shouldnt let batteries fail catastrophically. Its a really great mod and i love mine. If it ever stops working, i think that i would get another one. I feel the same way about this rdta im using. If it ever fails, id replace it with the same. So, dont worry, enjoy and vape on!!

 

[medleypat]

Yeah I know and I have just the six 26650 Aspire batteries and their specs are really right on. I am really tempted to try their 18650s to see if they are as good as their specs.

Yes if Mooch sides on the side of caution, I see that and that is probably what I would do in his shoes. But continuous only tells you what is ok if you use it continuously. That number is super safe as vapers could push it further.

But what is important to vapers? Continuous or realistic vaping specs?

I think you need to do a little more research because you keep talking about real vapers won't run them that hard but I know some vapers that do run them till the cut off kicks in plus just read on new members thread abot putting in pocket without turning it off and it fired. plus have had a mod mess up and autofire and 10 second cutoff didn't come on hate to think what would have happened if I wasn't close to it and got the battery out. So mooch's recommendation are what everyone should go by because if the protection circuit on your mod could fail

 

[Mooch]

Yeah I know and I have just the six 26650 Aspire batteries and their specs are really right on. I am really tempted to try their 18650s to see if they are as good as their specs.

Yes if Mooch sides on the side of caution, I see that and that is probably what I would do in his shoes. But continuous only tells you what is ok if you use it continuously. That number is super safe as vapers could push it further.

But what is important to vapers? Continuous or realistic vaping specs?

The continuous current rating is about as realistic as it gets and is used by every vaper.
What numbers do you look at when you see a new battery? Yup, the continuous discharge rating (CDR) along with its capacity.

The CDR not only gives you a quick way to sort out cells of interest it also gives you a good idea how hard you can use it before performance really starts to drop. A 30A cell operating at 30A pulsed loses up to 18W of power inside the cell itself...a huge loss. Starting below the CDR not only decreases the risks when we use these cells but it also helps to reduce the voltage sag that shortens vaping time and the heating that reduces cell life.

What about handling an accidental mech button press or regulated mod auto fire situation? Yup, we use the CDR for that. Not going beyond it can help keep a cell from venting (not runaway) if there is a problem.

So while you can survive going past the CDR, often way past it depending on how you vape, it can’t be considered safe and efficient just because most of us would survive it. That would be like saying going 150mph to work every day in your car was safe, efficient, and low risk just because you hadn’t crashed yet. The risks are still there. And your engine is taking a hell of a beating.

Same thing with batteries. We can vape at any level we want, of course, but the CDR is a critical safety, performance, and cell life number that is invaluable to vapers. Especially since there are no valid “pulse” ratings that can help us in any way.

What are the “realistic” vaping specs you use? I genuinely want to know.

 

[medleypat]

I have found no evidence for this no need at all. As there was a lawsuit against an eBay seller a few months ago who sold one Florida customer Efest batteries. And one battery exploded and the user suffered 48k in medical bills. The attorney claimed Efest buys their batteries from Sony and Panasonic and just rewraps them. So what went wrong there?

Just today Mattykinss only had two recharges on their LGs and looked to what happened! They are thinking of never vaping again!

r/electronic_cigarette - This was a close one. My Voopoo Drag exploded in my hand

So I see a huge need for temperature testing each cell that is going to be used for vaping. As so far Sony or Panasonic, and LG all have failed. I am still waiting for reports for an exploding Aspire cells, but I haven't found any reports yet in the last four years. So just maybe, they are doing something right that others are missing.

First off efest buys from anyone who will sell them batteries might even have been an aspire battery and second don't know enough about what happened to say if it was a battery problem or a mod problem an if you read the comments there was alot of different opinions on what caused it so if you are using that for an example might want to find one where the cause is known

 

[BillW50]

I think you need to do a little more research because you keep talking about real vapers won't run them that hard but I know some vapers that do run them till the cut off kicks in plus just read on new members thread abot putting in pocket without turning it off and it fired. plus have had a mod mess up and autofire and 10 second cutoff didn't come on hate to think what would have happened if I wasn't close to it and got the battery out. So mooch's recommendation are what everyone should go by because if the protection circuit on your mod could fail

I have done tons of research buddy! Real vapers don't run their batteries continuously. Our devices are not even designed to run continuously. Sure you can take a mech mod and run it continuously if you want to, but that would be nuts. Especially if you are anywhere near the max continuous rating. Not what is marked on the wrapper, but the real continuous rating.

Sure some regulated mods can continuously cycle between firing and not. I have three Aegis with firmware 1.0 that will fire for 10 seconds, off for one second, fire for 10, etc. If the fire button is left pressed. So I have to treat them carefully like you would do with a mech mod. Firmware v1.24 finally fixed it supposedly. But then TC doesn't work correctly with later firmware versions above v1.0.

 

[BillW50]

First off efest buys from anyone who will sell them batteries might even have been an aspire battery and second don't know enough about what happened to say if it was a battery problem or a mod problem an if you read the comments there was alot of different opinions on what caused it so if you are using that for an example might want to find one where the cause is known

Yeah I too thought Efest buys cells from just about anybody. But the attorney says differently. I suppose you can sue him if you know he was wrong. Yeah I know there wasn't enough information in that article. But I guess it doesn't matter because the law said the seller sold defective cells and needs to pay over 2 million dollars. But that is how our failed legal system works.

 

[Mooch]

I have done tons of research buddy! Real vapers don't run their batteries continuously. Our devices are not even designed to run continuously. Sure you can take a mech mod and run it continuously if you want to, but that would be nuts. Especially if you are anywhere near the max continuous rating. Not what is marked on the wrapper, but the real continuous rating.

Sure some regulated mods can continuously cycle between firing and not. I have three Aegis with firmware 1.0 that will fire for 10 seconds, off for one second, fire for 10, etc. If the fire button is left pressed. So I have to treat them carefully like you would do with a mech mod. Firmware v1.24 finally fixed it supposedly. But then TC doesn't work correctly with later firmware versions above v1.0.

Umm...I realize that buddy.
But you completely missed the point of my post.

It’s not about what we do when all is running okay. If that is happening then we don’t have to worry about anything. It’s about what might happen if things go wrong. THAT is when the continuous current rating is important for every vaper.

 

[BillW50]

Umm...I realize that buddy.
But you completely missed the point of my post.

It’s not about what we do when all is running okay. If that is happening then we don’t have to worry about anything. It’s about what might happen if things go wrong. THAT is when the continuous current rating is important for every vaper.

Your post? I replied to medleypat post. Are you also medleypat?

Anyway since you mentioned it, continuous current rating is only a ballpark figure (even when we rate their true rating). Why is this? Well Professor Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie University explains that cells doesn't keep the same rating cycle after cycle. Say you tested a cell today and gave it a continuous 20A rating. Well what about 10 cycles later or a month or two later? The internal resistance can change and sometimes it could be drastic as shown in this video.

 

[Mooch]

Your post? I replied to medleypat post. Are you also medleypat?

Anyway since you mentioned it, continuous current rating is only a ballpark figure (even when we rate their true rating). Why is this? Well Professor Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie University explains that cells doesn't keep the same rating cycle after cycle. Say you tested a cell today and gave it a continuous 20A rating. Well what about 10 cycles later or a month or two later? The internal resistance can change and sometimes it could be drastic as shown in this video.

Evidently I am medleypat...when I make a mistake.
My apologies. My statement stands though.

I am very familiar with Jeff Dahn’s work.

The continuous current rating is presented as an efficiency, safety, and cycle life statement using certain criteria by the manufacturers and as a guide for determining whether a particular cell will be a good fit for a particular application....when the cell is new. It has never been offered as a fixed number for the life of a cell and no one has even hinted at that here.

I am confused as to why you have brought this up.

Both capacity and IR change over time, with capacity changes typically manifesting themselves first and being much more obvious.

I see a loss of about 2mAh per cycle for the first 50 cycles or so with typical round cells we use when cycled hard. It then starts to drop off to about 1mAh loss per cycle by the time you hit 100 cycles. IR increases can vary but are typically in the 30%-40% range after a couple hundred cycles or so. That can change a LOT though depending on the cell and how hard it is cycled.

 

[BillW50]

Same thing with batteries. We can vape at any level we want, of course, but the CDR is a critical safety, performance, and cell life number that is invaluable to vapers. Especially since there are no valid “pulse” ratings that can help us in any way.

What are the “realistic” vaping specs you use? I genuinely want to know.

Well the only brand that I know of that expects you to use with a mod is Aspire. Everyone else warns you to not use them in electronic cigarettes. I know you dislike Aspire who doesn't put their CDR/pulse ratings on the wrapper, but on a slip of paper. But you can't put everything on that slip of paper on the wrapper. It just has too much information and not enough space on the cell. And Aspire ratings are different depending on how many amps you are going to use them at anyway. Like how all cells should be rated.

And while nobody I know except Aspire has a pulse rating for vapers. And Aspire are using 10 on and 5 off. And since nobody else has nothing, I find nothing about their pulse rating that I would argue about. Until someone comes up with something better, I find Aspire pulse and CDR ratings acceptable to use for vaping.

And funny you target Aspire for not putting their rating on the wrapper, but say nothing about Samsung, Sony, and others who don't either. They don't even add apiece a paper and tell you there. No rather, you have to get their confidential datasheet instead which you are probably never going to find anyway.

 

[BillW50]

Evidently I am medleypat...when I make a mistake.
My apologies. My statement stands though.

I am very familiar with Jeff Dahn’s work.

Oh good. I like his work. Not to say I don't like yours. I like yours too.

The continuous current rating is presented as an efficiency, safety, and cycle life statement using certain criteria by the manufacturers and as a guide for determining whether a particular cell will be a good fit for a particular application....when the cell is new. It has never been offered as a fixed number for the life of a cell and no one has even hinted at that here.

I am confused as to why you have brought this up.

Ah... I brought it up because I believe most vapers don't understand this. And I believe they need to be reminded from time to time.

Both capacity and IR change over time, with capacity changes typically manifesting themselves first and being much more obvious.

I see a loss of about 2mAh per cycle for the first 50 cycles or so with typical round cells we use when cycled hard. It then starts to drop off to about 1mAh loss per cycle by the time you hit 100 cycles. IR increases can vary but are typically in the 30%-40% range after a couple hundred cycles or so. That can change a LOT though depending on the cell and how hard it is cycled.

Pretty much what I see here too. Say have you ever tested leaving a cell at full charge for say a year or two and see what real harmful effects it causes vs. storage charge?

 

[Mooch]

Well the only brand that I know of that expects you to use with a mod is Aspire. Everyone else warns you to not use them in electronic cigarettes. I know you dislike Aspire who doesn't put their CDR/pulse ratings on the wrapper, but on a slip of paper. But you can't put everything on that slip of paper on the wrapper. It just has too much information and not enough space on the cell. And Aspire ratings are different depending on how many amps you are going to use them at anyway. Like how all cells should be rated.

And while nobody I know except Aspire has a pulse rating for vapers. And Aspire are using 10 on and 5 off. And since nobody else has nothing, I find nothing about their pulse rating that I would argue about. Until someone comes up with something better, I find Aspire pulse and CDR ratings acceptable to use for vaping.

And funny you target Aspire for not putting their rating on the wrapper, but say nothing about Samsung, Sony, and others who don't either. They don't even add apiece a paper and tell you there. No rather, you have to get their confidential datasheet instead which you are probably never going to find anyway.

LOL...Samsung, Sony, etc., cells are never to be sold to end users. Only pack assemblers and equipment manufacturers. Of course there are no ratings on the cell wraps from these companies! They are selected and tested by the engineers designing the packs and integrated immediately into those packs. These cells were never meant to be purchased or used individually by end users and never need ratings on them.

Datasheets were created solely for engineers and are never meant to be seen by end users. The ridiculous claims made by many vapers and vaping related companies after misreading various cell datasheets makes that policy a very wise one.

Many, many companies directly target vapers with batteries, not just Aspire.

Aspire has LOTS of room on their cells for the CDR and their “pulse” rating. A QR code can easily direct people to additional data. The temperature data is not needed by the end user on the battery. It belongs in a datasheet.

Aspire does not have a pulse rating for their batteries. Their number is useless as the criteria used to determine the rating is undefined. That number can fundamentally change depending on whether they use temperature, cycle life, voltage sag, or a combination of these things to set the rating. A “pulse” number associated with just a pulse width and duty cycle is a usage scenario but is not a rating.

Wait...how can Aspires CDR ratings be acceptable when no one else’s are?

 

[Mooch]

Pretty much what I see here too. Say have you ever tested leaving a cell at full charge for say a year or two and see what real harmful effects it causes vs. storage charge?

It depends on the cell chemistry but, assuming it doesn’t approach about 3V, there isn’t much loss in performance after a year in my experience. There’s oxidation in some cells, or a thickening of the SEI layer reducing diffusion (increasing polarization resistance), resulting in a loss of capacity but most don’t suffer badly.

I haven’t tested for longer than that.

 

[BillW50]

Aspire has LOTS of room on their cells for the CDR and their “pulse” rating. A QR code can easily direct people to additional data. The temperature data is not needed by the end user on the battery. It belongs in a datasheet.

No they don't have room since they have different ratings depending on how many amps you plan on using them at. And they do have a QR code on them, plus the date of manufacture in plain English.

Wait...how can Aspires CDR ratings be acceptable when no one else’s are?

What did you say Aspire's 26650 CDR was again? Oh yeah... 30A CDR. I guess you didn't test them, but pulled that rating from somewhere. Yet Aspire Battery Safety Chart for their 26650 lists it as a 20A CDR cell and gives the cell's temperature at 58°C @ 20A CDR. But Aspire claims it is okay to pulse them (10s/on and 5s/off) up to 67°C @ 40A. This rating system seems perfectly acceptable to me. And it checks out during my tests.

Aspire 26650 Battery 4300mAh - $10.00 : Aspire online shopping

 

[zoiDman]

I have done tons of research buddy! Real vapers don't run their batteries continuously. Our devices are not even designed to run continuously. Sure you can take a mech mod and run it continuously if you want to, but that would be nuts. Especially if you are anywhere near the max continuous rating. Not what is marked on the wrapper, but the real continuous rating.

...

Perhaps you can Clarify this.

Because as I read it, I pushed the Fire Button on my Regulated Mod down and held it for about 7 Seconds. Then released the Fire Button.

I do the Same thing if I am holding a Mech Mod in my hand.

Why is this Not running Continuously?

And by doing what I did, does that mean I am Not a Real Vaper?