SD copy

[Lisaf01]

Yes kelem, copy is wrong. But its more important now because we talk about a man that has not the money and not the power that big companies have, so we all must protect him, thats all.
Someday we will all be employers to big companies because if someone tries to make something good, they will eat him alive. Is this the life you want for your children and for you?

There isn't a lot that Trog or anyone else can do about this unfortunately. People who have designed their own battery cases both internally and externally and patented both these and the brand name and identifying marks can possibly do something to stop the copiers. Other than this, there isn't a lot people can do.
Expecting anyone in business to have the morals that you so clearly do have, Imeo, is at best, naive, and at worst, just asking for people to S**t on you.

We can say we won't buy it or support the copiers, but there will be plenty of people out there who will happily buy it.

 

[NightShadow]

I have great respect for the thought and work done by pioneers in the modding field.

I know that modders and the followers of specific mods have a genuine emotional response to those mods.

I respect others opinions, and the right to have one that is opposite to mine.

I think the original ecigs were made in china.

I am not trying to offend anyone here.

Having made the above statements/disclaimers I submit the following for consideration:

I will not bother to get into any specific countries patent or copyright laws, as this is FAR to complicated and I r not even a lawyer.

Hasn't everyone who made tweaks or improvements to this type of product allready "borrowed" from the original design idea allready, and doesn't almost everyones design use at least ONE part made in china still?

(At least I have not heard about the Imeo-cart or Imeo-mouthpiece yet, correct me if I am wrong )

((Imeo-AFS tho YES! Happy-claps of goodness!))

If I take a flashlight and cut it up to make a mod, do I then "own" that flashlights body style for use in all mods on the planet, or should the flashlight manufacurer post here that I stole thier design instead of just being happy that I bought thier product and possibly got others to do the same to make thier own?

If I see something, and say hmm, thats cool, but I would like it better "Like this" and change it to suit my desires/needs am I doing anything different than most allready are?

Basicly what I am geting at is I feel with the exception of the original creator of the first ecig nobody who is changing them to suit thier needs/desires should be claiming someone stole thier idea, as it wasnt my idea or anyones here to begin with. (the e-cig itself)

I think that Trog's design for the SD was great and unless I am mistaken he has been credited for being instrumental in the field of the battery mods. (I couldn't find a mod that sold more than 1-2 older than the SD anyhow)

Having said that, I am not a fan of the placement of the sd's button, and would far prefer a device with the button placed where this "copy" has it located. If I were to buy such a product, and trog offered one at a similar price/value point I would prefer to buy it from him as it was his design concept to begin with, but if he does not, then I have no other option but to look elsewhere don't I?

Aren't there other companies taking what ammounts to a stock product made in china, making one or possibly more very small tweaks to it, slapping thier logo on them, and backing them with thier own warranties allready? Is this good/bad? I think it is up to the buyer here to decide what is best for them.

I do agree that setting out to make an "exact" replica of something, and then sell it either as the original product or with a rebranded name is a low and shamefull thing to do.

I do not see where that is the case in this instance however, as it is a flashlight body with many changes to the rest of the design, and not an exact copy.

**Form Follows Function**

In closing please consider that most e-cigs have the same basic function, similar parts and are designed to hold similar batteries to a greater or lesser degree depending on the size.

Meaning if you make a device to hold battery X, it is probably going to end up resembling others products designed to hold battery X, unless you add an MP3 player to it ofcourse!

 

[imeothanasis]

I think the original ecigs were made in china.

I am not trying to offend anyone here.

Having made the above statements/disclaimers I submit the following for consideration:

I will not bother to get into any specific countries patent or copyright laws, as this is FAR to complicated and I r not even a lawyer.

Hasn't everyone who made tweaks or improvements to this type of product allready "borrowed" from the original design idea allready, and doesn't almost everyones design use at least ONE part made in china still?

Night, please one moment.

Original concept is in china yes I agree! But modders didnt copy anything, they put the samr parts in their mods and they changed the tube and they gave many options to it. That means that they didnt copy the chinese, they made their own cig, totally diferent at least external. If chinese make a battery holder that is not identical ezxpternally , then ok they are modders, but if they make the same externally they are copiers because people look the external look. I will say an example. If a man makes a identical externally ferrari, many people will buy it. If someone makes an identically internal ferarri only a few people will buy it.
China knows this, thats the reason they make a mod that externally look like SD.

If I take a flashlight and cut it up to make a mod, do I then "own" that flashlights body style for use in all mods on the planet, or should the flashlight manufacurer post here that I stole thier design instead of just being happy that I bought thier product and possibly got others to do the same to make thier own?

If you take a flash light and make it e-cig, them you dont ow flashlights not their shape, but you own the e-cig and its shape. Do you think I own the car or the piston in it? Of course I own the whole thing, not the piston. Trog didnt stole the shape of flashlight, he USED the shape to make something else totally different than a flashlight. So if I use a piston to make a car, the car dont own me because I used a piston? Of course its mine!

If I see something, and say hmm, thats cool, but I would like it better "Like this" and change it to suit my desires/needs am I doing anything different than most allready are?

Yes, you can change them to your needs, but dont make the same, its wrong and unethical and illegal.

Having said that, I am not a fan of the placement of the sd's button, and would far prefer a device with the button placed where this "copy" has it located. If I were to buy such a product, and trog offered one at a similar price/value point I would prefer to buy it from him as it was his design concept to begin with, but if he does not, then I have no other option but to look elsewhere don't I?

you cant look elsewere because the "elsewere" must not exist at all. We cant help copiers and thiefs by buying their products or encourage them to do it.

Aren't there other companies taking what ammounts to a stock product made in china, making one or possibly more very small tweaks to it, slapping thier logo on them, and backing them with thier own warranties allready? Is this good/bad? I think it is up to the buyer here to decide what is best for them.

This is good if they give their technology to China and if they look the making procedure. If not, yes its very bad. But you talk about the same company that wants to give cheap options to their customers, not for a company that steals the product from someone else!

I do agree that setting out to make an "exact" replica of something, and then sell it either as the original product or with a rebranded name is a low and shamefull thing to do.

we agree! its an exact replica this thing

I do not see where that is the case in this instance however, as it is a flashlight body with many changes to the rest of the design, and not an exact copy.

Its an exact external copy!! Only a few people look the internal. I gave the ferrari example before.

Meaning if you make a device to hold battery X, it is probably going to end up resembling others products designed to hold battery X, unless you add an MP3 player to it ofcourse!

you mean that if someone makes an SD and add a mp3 player on it is a good man? He "knows" what he is going because he could make a diferent shape at all. But he do the same for some reason. The reason is that he is a thief and he knows it!!

 

[Stormynights]

This is just an old lady's opinion but the Chinese were the first to make the ecigarette. We have had several people come along that improved on the original ideas. I do think it is wrong to make a direct copy of someones work and undercut them. Usually when this happens it is just a cheap copy that is inferior. It isn't right when a person researches and works hard to get an original design and another person comes along and just copies that design. That is just stealing. This is the reason we have copyright laws. Unfortunately it isn't easy getting a copyright. It cost a lot of money and takes a lot of time. That still doesn't stop the theft of the design. It is a shame that some people don't have ethics.
It is only the better things that get copied and people know the difference between the copy and the original. Ask anyone that has a fake if they would prefer an original and I don't think anyone would say that they like the fake better. The only way to not be copied is to make a cheap product. N one will copy that. I do believe there will be a lot of GG copies someday but I will own an original.

 

[Lisaf01]

There isn't a lot that Trog or anyone else can do about this unfortunately. People who have designed their own battery cases both internally and externally and patented both these and the brand name and identifying marks can possibly do something to stop the copiers. Other than this, there isn't a lot people can do.
Expecting anyone in business to have the morals that you so clearly do have, Imeo, is at best, naive, and at worst, just asking for people to S**t on you.

We can say we won't buy it or support the copiers, but there will be plenty of people out there who will happily buy it.

I forgot to reiterate that I personally, do not condone this kind of flagrant copying of Trog's (or anyone elses) device and I will not be buying one and would discourage anyone else from buying one. The only way to stop this kind of thing is to vote with our wallets.

If a man makes a identical externally ferrari, many people will buy it. If someone makes an identically internal ferarri only a few people will buy it.
China knows this, thats the reason they make a mod that externally look like SD.

Yes, this is EXACTLY why they have done it. To cash in on the blood, sweat and tears already expended by someone else (in this case, Trog).

If you take a flash light and make it e-cig, them you dont ow flashlights not their shape, but you own the e-cig and its shape. Do you think I own the car or the piston in it? Of course I own the whole thing, not the piston. Trog didnt stole the shape of flashlight, he USED the shape to make something else totally different than a flashlight. So if I use a piston to make a car, the car dont own me because I used a piston? Of course its mine!

I think the basic problem here is because everyone has a different opinion of what a "mod" is and what constitutes copyright and/or design theft in an example like this where another product was essentially "converted" rather designed from the ground-up.

Yes, you can change them to your needs, but dont make the same, its wrong and unethical and illegal.

Yes, this example is clearly a complete copy of Trog's work and as such is pretty disgusting (but at the same time I am not surprised to see it).

you cant look elsewere because the "elsewere" must not exist at all. We cant help copiers and thiefs by buying their products or encourage them to do it.

Agreed, we won't support it, but there will always be someone who will. This is human nature, and yes, it's not right or fair.

This is just an old lady's opinion

Your opinion is just as valid and worthwhile as anyone elses!! Anyone who says different should come to argue with me, Stormy!

but the Chinese were the first to make the ecigarette. We have had several people come along that improved on the original ideas. I do think it is wrong to make a direct copy of someones work and undercut them. Usually when this happens it is just a cheap copy that is inferior. It isn't right when a person researches and works hard to get an original design and another person comes along and just copies that design. That is just stealing. This is the reason we have copyright laws. Unfortunately it isn't easy getting a copyright. It cost a lot of money and takes a lot of time. That still doesn't stop the theft of the design. It is a shame that some people don't have ethics.
It is only the better things that get copied and people know the difference between the copy and the original. Ask anyone that has a fake if they would prefer an original and I don't think anyone would say that they like the fake better. The only way to not be copied is to make a cheap product. N one will copy that. I do believe there will be a lot of GG copies someday but I will own an original.

You speak a lot of sense Stormy and this is all any of us can try to do.
Realise what's right and wrong and uphold our own beliefs.

 

[Stormynights]

I just can't see anyone buying a copy when they can have the original for a few dollars more.

 

[imeothanasis]

I just can't see anyone buying a copy when they can have the original for a few dollars more.

I want to see the waranty and the aftersales too stormy. If you think of these two things, then the copy is moooooore expensive. We have to look the wood and not the tree.

 

[Stormynights]

I want to see the waranty and the aftersales too stormy. If you think of these two things, then the copy is moooooore expensive. We have to look the wood and not the tree.

That is so true. Look at the prices of an old Rolex. Quality is always the most important issue. You can find Rolex copies at yard sales but never an original.

 

[NightShadow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by imeothanasis
you cant look elsewere because the "elsewere" must not exist at all. We cant help copiers and thiefs by buying their products or encourage them to do it.


I meant that as I do not like a button on bottom I would not buy the SD. So as I need another device I must buy a different one than the sd, one that has the button where I like a button to be. Not this one, but one like the Protoge I just ordered.

I understand that you feel that since trog was the first to use this model of flashlight for his mods, that nobody else should use this model of flashlight for thier mods. On this point we will need to agree to disagree I am afraid. A flashlight is a common item, an atomizer is a common item, a laser pointer is a common item, etc.

You discussed the Ferarri, and Ferrari Replica's. In the USA, both are legal products. The people that buy them know if they are buying a Real Ferarri, or a Replica, especially when they go to pay for them


Quote:
Originally Posted by imeothanasis
we agree! its an exact replica this thing

While I agree that this uses the same flashlight body as the SD, the button has been moved/added/changed so I cant call it an "exact" replica. iIt appears to otherwise look the same to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imeothanasis
you mean that if someone makes an SD and add a mp3 player on it is a good man? He "knows" what he is going because he could make a diferent shape at all. But he do the same for some reason. The reason is that he is a thief and he knows it!!


Sorry, my MP3 player comment was an attempt at a humourus reference to the proposed Janty Cameo design that is a PV with an MP3 player built in which I felt was something I would not like


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisaf01
I think the basic problem here is because everyone has a different opinion of what a "mod" is and what constitutes copyright and/or design theft in an example like this where another product was essentially "converted" rather designed from the ground-up.




Exactly!
If trog had not used a flashlight housing, I would be in complete agreement here. He is using pre existing parts and converting them. I percieve a large difference in the 2, while others may not. Basicly everyone is using carts and atomizers they did not create, they also did not create the battery.


Someone designed the basic T-shirt we all wear. If I go to the store I can buy one from many different manufacturers. Nobody call them thieves unless they sew a fake label on them, likely because we have no clue who first invented the shirt, while in this case we know trog came up with the SD.


I can go to the cloth store and buy cloth, then sew my own T-Shirt. If I sew my own and it has 2 sleeves like the ones in the stores, am I stealing thier design or must I sew mine with just one sleeve or no sleeves in order to not be labled a thief? Oh wait, if I sew one with no sleeves then its stealing the halter top..sorry I guess we will all need to go topless!


If I paint a circle on a canvas, do I then own the shape of O and nobody else can then paint with it?

Does trog hold a patent or copyright on his original design from a legal standpoint? I seriously have no idea. If he does he could persure a costly legal battle. Would it be worth it to him to do so even if he would win, I seriously doubt it at this point.


Will I buy this mod, NO!


Will I support this mod? NO.


Do I admit its is a blatant "tweak or redesign" of the SD, YES. I do not call it a "replica" however. replica - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary


Would I prefer a SD made by trog with the button where this one has it, YES.


Am I ok with trying to get people to not support this mod, sure.


Why did I start posting here in the first place if I am mostly in agreement?

I am a stickler for details. I also wanted to clearly define some terms being tossed about. I am sorry this ended up being way more verbose than I intended.

And sorry for impropper quotes, new to this system and struggling with more than one quote here.

 

[vapn]

I thought I read somewhere that Totally Wicked made a deal to started producing these to meet the demands of the Screwdriver in the US. Trog could not make enough of them. I don't really know if Trog has sold the rights to them or what but I did hear that Totally Wicked and TECC was going to be selling the production model of the SD soon. I guess this might just be the model they were talking about. Don't quote me on this but that is what I heard. Don't really remember where but I do remember some talk of this deal about a month ago. TW and TECC both have the SD available on their sites but they are always Out of Stock and I'm sure they get hundreds of inquires a day for them.

I would hope that Trog would be duly compensated for them selling THE SD. I actually had a SD and was happy with it but was not really a fan of the button placement and the ease of it firing in my pocket. But it was cool and small and a well built PV for SURE. It wasn't until after I got it I found that it was actually a flashlight mod. But no big deal. What ever works.

But yea I did hear that this was some kind of deal for TW and TECC to keep up with the markets demands for the SD. I don't think it was done to rip him off. I really hope he was in fact paid well for them producing HIS mod. He was one of the first ones to start the mod craze and he should be recognized for it. Just as imeo should be recognized for his amazing work on building the first truly mechanical PV. I know I will stand behind the GG line now that I hold one in my hand and know the craftsmanship and pure hard work that goes into each and every one. Actually before I had this one it was pure speculation of the actual quality of the GG (and SD for that matter.) It is not until you actually hold one and use it that you gain a respect for the quality. Just as with any other e-cig I have purchased I was purely taking the word of someone else.

 

[imeothanasis]

Night, I disagree to most of your post but its too late to answer to your (again) big post. Time here is 2.36 am. Tomorow I will be in a better shape

 

[vapn]

Get to sleep and rest so you can make more GGs ... lol...

 

[NightShadow]

Night, I disagree to most of your post but its too late to answer to your (again) big post. Time here is 2.36 am. Tomorow I will be in a better shape

As I said, we will probably need to to agree to disagree, but by all means fire way once you have the time

Wow, a Short post from ME!

 

[Obie]

I thought I read somewhere that Totally Wicked made a deal to started producing these to meet the demands of the Screwdriver in the US. Trog could not make enough of them. I don't really know if Trog has sold the rights to them or what but I did hear that Totally Wicked and TECC was going to be selling the production model of the SD soon. I guess this might just be the model they were talking about. Don't quote me on this but that is what I heard. Don't really remember where but I do remember some talk of this deal about a month ago. TW and TECC both have the SD available on their sites but they are always Out of Stock and I'm sure they get hundreds of inquires a day for them.

I would hope that Trog would be duly compensated for them selling THE SD. I actually had a SD and was happy with it but was not really a fan of the button placement and the ease of it firing in my pocket. But it was cool and small and a well built PV for SURE. It wasn't until after I got it I found that it was actually a flashlight mod. But no big deal. What ever works.

But yea I did hear that this was some kind of deal for TW and TECC to keep up with the markets demands for the SD. I don't think it was done to rip him off. I really hope he was in fact paid well for them producing HIS mod. He was one of the first ones to start the mod craze and he should be recognized for it. Just as imeo should be recognized for his amazing work on building the first truly mechanical PV. I know I will stand behind the GG line now that I hold one in my hand and know the craftsmanship and pure hard work that goes into each and every one. Actually before I had this one it was pure speculation of the actual quality of the GG (and SD for that matter.) It is not until you actually hold one and use it that you gain a respect for the quality. Just as with any other e-cig I have purchased I was purely taking the word of someone else.

The "Original" SD is supplied to TW & TECC by Trog

 

[imeothanasis]

Night, if you took protege because it has button on side, then its ok but dont buy the SD copy, because its a copy, you see it by yourself

Yes, no one should use this type of flashlight, thats for sure. There are plenty of shapes. If you use this, you are a copier!

I really dont know if replica ferrari is legal there but here it isnt. But if it is a replica, then people that makes replicas, they have to pay an amount of money to ferrari for this. I dont think anyone will do it for Trog too.

Night, a button dont change the "exactly replica" thing. We cant hide behind our finger! Ok its not exactly but its a replica and thats is a fact.

If someones copies GG (its not a flashlight), it has my own shape (I made it) then you are ok with it? I mean that you agree that no one must copy me? Then all e-cigs after GG are GG copies? (some of them are).

about T SHIRT, your example is not good because t shirts are made for people with 2 hands Night, so all these will be the same. e-cigs are for people again but design can be diferent, much diferent, totally diferent. T shirt cant be diferent because human body is the same for all people.

If you shape an o to canvas? This e.g. is worse than the first one Night!!!

If trog holds a patent in his hands, that means that those things can be patented. They can for sure, I patent mine. So if they can be patented, that means that he has legal rights as you said. That also meands that if he hasnt patent it, SD is his too, even if he hasnt a patent. So SD shape is trog's and no one must steal it.

If you dont support this mod then you are the best man in the world. If the result is what we both want, then we agree diasagreeing and not agree to disagree as you said.

 

[NightShadow]

If someones copies GG (its not a flashlight), it has my own shape (I made it) then you are ok with it? I mean that you agree that no one must copy me? Then all e-cigs after GG are GG copies? (some of them are).

As you hand crafted your GG from "scratch" instead of cutting up a flashlight that is available on the shelf I would not like to see your GG copied at all, so yes we agree on that.

I disagree that just because someone beat others to the punch and used a common item first in thier mod that it is then thiers alone for all time.

Some examples of this would be:

Robert's detonator also uses a flashlight body, just not the same one as he wanted bigger batteries.

Any of the various laser mods.

All the BOX mods, the box comes from radio shack!

It is my view that all should be able to use commonly available parts, or else anyone that uses an atomizer or a cart in thier design is "stealing" others designs.

Others may go further than this, and say a pipe is comonly used to create the battery body, so does this mean that the first person to use a pipe for thiers then has the sole right to use a pipe and others then must use something different?

You may not agree with all of my prior examples, or even think they are good ones . They were simply meant to convey the spirit of my view here.

I realize that you are trying to draw a line in the sand to protect intelectual / design property and I get the idea you consider pv's to be like a work of art. There is nothing with this, and I respect your views towards it. I just may not totally agree in all cases.

I simply feel that something made from common parts while very nice and functional may not classify as art work.

I do feel that pv's like the GG for example fall under the work of art category as they were hand crafted and not constructed from a pre-existing item like a flashlight, laser pointer, or off the shelf plastic box.

 

[Abe]

USD41.2 from Sailebao? Sounds expensive.

 

[vinylmason]

I have to agree with Night that the sd is just a .......ized flashlight,trog did nothing other than stick an atomizer fitting on it,he did not create anything he just had a good idea.If I would have seen the sailbao before I bought the $15 dollar flashlight,renamed the sd for $152 I probably would have bought it.

 

[Sevenchan]

I think the principle underlying Imeo's argument is that we should support artisans, not big corporations. I am in total agreement with that, regardless of how one defines originality down. I would rather pay a few dollars more for a product handmade by an artisan than one that rolled off an assembly line staffed by underpaid and exploited contract labor. That, to me, is an ethical use of my money. It's funny to hear people (not in this thread, but in general) whining because they don't want to pay a few dollars more for quality, and running after "bargains," and then going "huh?" when their jobs are outsourced to China

 

[vinylmason]

Yes I agree I would rather buy something handmade,thats why I bought the GG and the AR,the sd was my first mod I didnt know any better,do you think Romisen has no assembly line after all they did make the flashlight not trog.