SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion

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kristin

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I would assume that CASAA would pay the cost of the transcript?

If so, let me know and I will go donate some more money to CASAA.
If the cost is coming out of your own pocket, let me know how to contribute please.

And thanks, from all of us!!
:)

CASAA voted a few weeks ago that we would buy the CD, but we don't have the funds to pay for a transcript costing a few hundred. So, if we can get enough donations, we'd be able to pay for the transcripts. Please donate at CASAA.org

Ron was originally going to attend with Elaine, but CASAA sent him off to testify in New York instead and he did a bang-up job. This is where your donations go folks - with your financial support we can achieve even more! Any amount - whether $10 or $1,000 makes a difference!

 
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Bahnzo

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Elaine, it goes without saying, but thanks for the summary.

I got the feeling from reading it that the FDA seems to face a real challenge here. The judges seemed very much unwilling to just let the FDA have it's way and almost (IMO) questioning their motives for the case. I also am very interested in what was said about their intent to ban. I find it telling that the judge asked this question.
 

DC2

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CASAA voted a few weeks ago that we would buy the CD, but we don't have the funds to pay for a transcript costing a few hundred. So, if we can get enough donations, we'd be able to pay for the transcripts. Please donate at CASAA.org

Ron was originally going to attend with Elaine, but CASAA sent him off to testify in New York instead and he did a bang-up job. This is where your donations go folks - with your financial support we can achieve even more! Any amount - whether $10 or $1,000 makes a difference!
I used to donate to ASPCA, The Humane Society, and Heifer International.
Now all of my donations go to CASAA.

Chalk up another one.
Done!!
:)
 

markmcs

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I am new to vaping, and I am very concerned about pending legislation that would force me to stop....and most likely become a full time smoker again. That said, I thank you, Elaine for going to D.C., and posting the summary for us. Kristin, I am a NYer and appreciate the video of the CIAA hearing (I watched the entire 90mins). I've never been a part of a forum before, and I'm amazed at how much help there is here, and how many people have actively taken up our cause. Thanks.
 

freakindahouse

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Elaine, sorry to throw you another request, but is there any chance that you could post about when/if the next part of this hearing will be occurring? I mean, are the judges from this panel in retirement now, to make a decision, or have they come out and said there will be no decision, or are they reconvening at some later date? It's not clear what the outcome (if any!) was/will be (I mean, specifically, of this legal process!)

Thanks, hon.

Cheers,

Katherine
 

yvilla

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Katherine, the process in an appeal such as this is that after the oral argument that just occurred, the judges will now deliberate to make their decision. One of them will be assigned to write the opinion, and the decision will be released in due course. I would expect the earliest we would see the decision is sometime in November, but no one knows for sure when that will be.
 

Vocalek

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elaine - congrats on becoming the ecig community's very first rock star!

great job.

i was wondering - when you have a moment, would you be able to post some of the harder questions the judges posed to NJOY? I would be interested in seeing what the angle was.

The NJOY lawyer did not have the floor for more than 5 or 10 minutes of the one hour hearing. He started to talk about the FDA wanting to regulate all tobacco products under FDCA as it did in the case of Brown & Williamson

The exchange between a couple of the judges and Garre (the NJOY attorney) about what products might be regulated under the Tobacco Actlasted for several minutes and I did not catch everything that was said. One of the judges seemed concerned about street drugs, and then wondered whether injectable nicotine would be covered under the Tobacco Act. NJOY's attorney stated that the court needed to limit its consideration to tobacco products, not street drugs.

When Judge Garland asked why the FDA wanted to regulate the products under FDCA, if the intent was to ban them, FDA's attorney took over the podium again. She claimed that the FDA wants to reduce the harm caused by smoking (I snorted at that), and said something about destroying the incentive to do clinical studies. I was not following her logic there. She did state that the FDA would want to ban them if they are not safe. That's when she went into her speil about working in cooperation with manufacturers and made the statement that they want to fast-track new "nicotine maintenance" products.

On thinking about this a little more, I am wondering whether, when she said "nicotine maintenance," she meant taking the existing NRTs, continuing to regulate them under FDCA, and extending the approved amount of time for use. It may be the FDA's theory that we won't need electronic cigarettes as an alternative if they offer us longer use of patches, gum, lozenges.

I recently posted on the Documents page of the CASAA site a copy of a "Citizens Petition" (which should more accurately be called a "Lobbyists Petition") to the FDA from the CTFK, ALA, AHA, and ACS (does that group sound familiar?) regarding smoking cessation products. http://www.casaa.org/files/TFK_Citizen_Petition_-_FDA-2010-P-0454.pdf

Because the health risks of continued tobacco use are so serious, this new approach should provide an opportunity and an incentive for the development and approval of more effective smoking cessation products and beneficial revisions to current labeling requirements.

The Petitioners urge that products approved by FDA as tobacco cessation aids pursuant to its drug authority should meet the same high standards for safety as other products approved as drugs. FDA's goal should be to apply those standards in a way designed to maximize the number of lives saved based on the best available evidence and to encourage product development and marketing with those goals in mind.
Call me cynical, but this sounds to me like a back-handed way of saying "Don't allow products like e-cigarettes on the market to compete with our benefactors' products. Keep the hurdles high!"

Under Action Requested:
Issue a guidance that states that when reviewing applications to market new smoking cessation products and when considering changes to labels on existing products, the agency will evaluate the risks of smoking cessation products against the risks of continued tobacco use.

Again, call me cynical, but wasn't FDA already using that as their justification for keeping Chantix on the market, despite all the adverse events and deaths? How about changing the wording to "...against the risks of continued smoking" and applying that guidance to keeping e-cigarettes on the market?

Again, under Action Requested
In accordance with the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, make the development of smoking cessation products a priority and transfer the evaluation of applications for these products from the Division of Anesthetics, Critical Care and Addiction Drug Products to the Office of Oncology Drug Products. Such a transfer would allow smoking cessation products to be evaluated by medical reviewers with expertise in cancer, which is a leading cause of death resulting from tobacco use, 1 and by regulators with experience in designing programs to encourage the development of drugs where a great need exists.

This sounds OK, even logical on first read. But, for the third time call me cynical, and I can't help but wonder whether the "axis of evil" has some ulterior motive. The text of the Tobacco Act has this to say:

‘(c) Tobacco Dependence Products- A product that is intended to be used for the treatment of tobacco dependence, including smoking cessation, is not a modified risk tobacco product under this section if it has been approved as a drug or device by the Food and Drug Administration and is subject to the requirements of chapter V.

So it is clear that the Tobacco Act is NOT governing how smoking cessation products are regulated, and defers that authority to the existing law, FDCA. Is the "axis of evil" petition an attempted end run around congress to try to get "modified risk" tobacco products regulated under FDCA?
 
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kristin

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Per Elaine's post above:

While all of this may be a way to also kill e-cigarettes, I think the thrust of it is to allow pharmaceutical companies to change the intended use of NRTs from nicotine reduction therapy (having to wean off) to nicotine replacement therapy (long-term use products,) increase nicotine content and to be able to advertise them as reduced harm alternatives. They've been working on that for some time now.

Of course, that would put ecigs even more squarely in the path as direct competition - especially since no matter how long you use it or how much nicotine is in them, NRTs still don't replace the smoking EXPERIENCE.
 

Bill Godshall

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The NRT petition submitted to the FDA by CTFK/ACS/ALA/ALF (but not AHA interestingly) was clearly done after consultation with their drug company funders and is intended to increase future sales (or at least prevent future sales declines) of NRT products. BTW Thanks for posting that document on CASAA's website.

While I strongly support deregulating NRT products to make them more effective and helpful (i.e. allow more nicotine in them, allow sales of $5-$10 packages, allow sales in all stores that sell tobacco, remove warnings urging customers to stop usage if concurrently using tobacco and to stop usage after 10-12 weeks, approve usage of NRT for temporary or long term maintenance), the petition by CTFK/ACA/ALA/ALF is clearly intended to protect/promote drug company markets instead of public health.
 
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kristin

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Issue a guidance that states that when reviewing applications to market new
smoking cessation products and when considering changes to labels on existing
products, the agency will evaluate the risks of smoking cessation products against
the risks of continued tobacco use. Because the health risks of continued tobacco
use are so serious and because the agency apparently currently evaluates the risks of smoking cessation products without adequate consideration of the health risks of continued use of tobacco products, this new approach will result in the agency being open to approving more effective smoking cessation products and revising current labeling requirements.

This is actually something which could HELP e-cigarettes. If I am reading this correctly, they want the FDA to assess the risks of the NRTs against the risks of smoking vs. the risk against breathing in fresh air and not using nicotine.

If that is the case, they'd have to assess the risks of e-cigs in the same way - risks of PG vs. smoke not PG vs. air, etc.

Maybe CASAA should petition the FDA to NOT equate smoking cessation with nicotine cessation and acknowledge that one can quit smoking without actually curing the "disease" of nicotine addiction. Then e-cigs can claim to help quit smoking without having to be a drug treatment, as smoking isn't a medically-recognized disease.

Think of it this way - Ingnition Interuption Systems in cars help people quit driving drunk, but they aren't a treatment for alcohol addiction. same for e-cigs. E-cigs help people quit smoking, but they aren't a treatment for nicotine addiction.
 
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Bovinia

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Think of it this way - Ingnition Interuption Systems in cars help people quit driving drunk, but they aren't a treatment for alcohol addiction. same for e-cigs. E-cigs help people quit smoking, but they aren't a treatment for nicotine addiction.

This is a great analogy. Thank you all for your dedication and hard work!
 

bassnut

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Per Elaine's post above:

While all of this may be a way to also kill e-cigarettes, I think the thrust of it is to allow pharmaceutical companies to change the intended use of NRTs from nicotine reduction therapy (having to wean off) to nicotine replacement therapy (long-term use products,) increase nicotine content and to be able to advertise them as reduced harm alternatives. They've been working on that for some time now.

Of course, that would put ecigs even more squarely in the path as direct competition - especially since no matter how long you use it or how much nicotine is in them, NRTs still don't replace the smoking EXPERIENCE.

In California you can buy patches and nic gum without prescription. Same everywhere I suppose. There's nothing stopping anybody from chewing nic gum as much and for as long as they like. I know of a couple of people that have been chewing it quite awhile. I used to buy it at Costco. I still have some....
All the Pharmas can do is raise the nicotine level. More gum flavors - (...or not. Think of the children!)
 
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