SE, NJoy vs. FDA -- Overflow thread

[Lithium1330]

Since when a website manager is a de facto leader?

We need to realize that everything has a place, as big as this forums is, it is not big enough to really make a difference, we need to realize that we need more people using e-cigs, we need the media and we need people doing something visible in "Real Life".

I'm sorry but I agree with Roly, I have seen how when comes to activism a really small number of people is willing to help, other than sending an e-mail and that is NOT enough, as simple and harsh as it sounds.

If you can, give some disposables to every smoker you know, and even to those who you don't know! We need to be big in numbers and make A LOT of noise, because we are not big in money.

 

[thorn]

As far as "doing" something about it, I thought a vaping march would be good. But we have only acquired around 1500 signatures on the online petition. There is no way we can get enough people to actually show up somewhere for a march to be effective. Can we start passing out signature petitions to bars? It would have to be educational as well though, not just a signature list.

 

[2pooped]

What if Roly had posted as an alias instead of WEBSITE Manager? What response would that incite? Ignored, Bashed or taken as hard as it has. I think the opinion would be different. I got ...... at reading Roly's rant. I felt a personal attack. I am a slacker. However, I vape everywhere I go. Everywhere!. I have educated so many people about the e-cigg. ...... off a couple too. But, I will not stop! I still vape in my dr's office Waiting room and all. While getting blood drawn! I vape in resturants, stores, pharmacy etc. Am I an ... about it? Absolutely not! My goal in exposure and education. I don't sell them. I point them to the local Pilot station. Also, telling them that the ones there are not the true experience. I point then to the net at various distributors. I point them to this very Forum. I for 1 am ready to quit vaping. I have gotten myself off of the nic. Addiction gone, now for the habit.
Stop posting your personal feelings from a position of authority (real or not).
Use an alias. At least appear to be on equal ground.

 

[rolygate]

2pooped - fair comment, let me answer. Is it a rant? Perhaps so, it's designed to make people sit up and take note. Polite mode doesn't cut it for that. Did I describe people as 'slackers'? Not in those words - it was entirely directed to those who do nothing but send emails. Does that apply to you? If not then you shouldn't feel you are in a club you describe as slackers, surely?

Note that I did not denigrate people in any way for doing what they felt best - but I tore into the practice of using email as a solution, which I think is justified, as it can't be more than 1% as effective as phoning, writing, visiting and so on.

All in all I'm happy that my post did the job. It's strange that people who have actually done more than emailing seem to feel they were a target, but that's the web. I compliment, and we all thank, those who have done more.

Stop posting your personal feelings from a position of authority (real or not).
Use an alias. At least appear to be on equal ground.

If the post had been made using an alias it would have been ignored or derided. This way it gets attention. I've made it clear that ECF has no position on these matters.

In addition, the post had to made from an ID that people can see is somebody who likely knows more than they do, otherwise it would have been pointless. Here are some of the things I see:

• No sign that government is going to take the sensible approach and legitimize ecigs as a tobacco product of the harm reduction category
• Large US-based ecig businesses downsizing, cutting staff, and being forced to reduce their activity due to import controls
• Large ecig businesses up for sale due to the owners getting out, when instead they should be ramping up in a bull market
• The fate of ecigs at Federal level hanging on the result of a court case which could easily go against us, especially when you consider the funds being invested by the other side. It's rumored that facts and logic are occasionally less important than cash in the judicial process
• Ecigarette businesses, when given a chance to cooperate and work together by supporting lobbyists and/or joining in an amicus curiae, doing absolutely nothing
• People in the know stocking up with a lifetime's supply of atomizers
• All the signs being depressing instead of positive - or even neutral

But perhaps I'm just a natural pessimist. I call it being a realist.

People need to do more to protect their freedom and I'm not ashamed to have flagged that up. Freedom is something that somebody, somewhere has to fight for, otherwise you end up in a cage, whether you can see it or not. If you think it's OK to leave it to somebody else to fight your battles for you, so be it. Just don't complain later, that's all I'm saying.

 

[JustJulie]

No movement on the docket. FDA's brief is due Monday, so make sure to stop by the thread Monday end of the day.

 

[D103]

And herein lies the problem: rationalization, justification,unmitigated presumption and simply boorish behavior. Mr. Rolygate states: "In additon, the post had to be made from an ID that people can see is somebody who likely knows more than they do, otherwise it would have been pointless. Here are some things I see:" ..........
Well here are some things I see Mr. Rolygate: "pointless??" True points are made by accurate, factual and complete information delivered in a direct, compassionate and compelling manner, most often by someone who demonstrates the utmost respect for the listener/reader. You feel you 'need' an ID to make a point and you 'presume' to know more than we do - I know other IDs that think the very same way: ALA, AHA, ACS, ASH and FDA -these IDs mean anything to you sir? You claim to be a "realist" yet you come off more of a 'fatalist.' You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, I would just ask that you don't beat up on others for the way in which you think and feel.

 

[Drozd]

And herein lies the problem: rationalization, justification,unmitigated presumption and simply boorish behavior. Mr. Rolygate states: "In additon, the post had to be made from an ID that people can see is somebody who likely knows more than they do, otherwise it would have been pointless. Here are some things I see:" ..........
Well here are some things I see Mr. Rolygate: "pointless??" True points are made by accurate, factual and complete information delivered in a direct, compassionate and compelling manner, most often by someone who demonstrates the utmost respect for the listener/reader. You feel you 'need' an ID to make a point and you 'presume' to know more than we do - I know other IDs that think the very same way: ALA, AHA, ACS, ASH and FDA -these IDs mean anything to you sir? You claim to be a "realist" yet you come off more of a 'fatalist.' You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, I would just ask that you don't beat up on others for the way in which you think and feel.

I see his point as....who are you more prone to read the post and take as having a point some newb that you don't recognize...or from someone who has been on here for a long time and has posted alot..
lets face it there are certain ID names here that you're going to put more stock into as being accurate information...kristin, vocal, Sun, justjulie, legalOne, etc....there are others that you're going to temper what they say with possibly some skepticism....and then theres those that you're going to blow off as complete wackjob naysayers (Phihalycon)....and the stock you're going to put in what they're saying does indeed come attached to the name you recognize (whether it's a concious thing or not)

 

[DC2]

Vaporer:I had hoped it would come across as brutally harsh, not just harsh. Time to wake up, people.

I think your 'limited options' would include using the phone or writing. I tried to explain that these are much more effective.

If you don't know your options or what value to put on each form of action, then no one can accuse you of not caring or whatever. But once you know that doing something has little or no effect, it then applies. I'm sad that many people think email has some kind of effect in and of itself. It may do if in addition to physical forms of action, but emailing by itself in general is a waste of time.

You might be able to work that out by the amount of emailing that has been done versus the effect it's had: none. At State level, where success was achieved, it was effected by people actually doing something. Email doesn't qualify as actually doing anything.

Email sent to the general inbox of organisations is filtered first, and then seen by the junior under-sectretary / office junior / intern. Nobody else is going to deal with bulk email of which 99% is unwanted. It's filtered and then a secretary gets to see it. The person you want to affect is aware of your email in the same terms they are of spam.

This is just a wake-up call because time is running out fast. And a simple reality check: exactly where do you think expending ten seconds of effort and zero dollars will get you? Answer: nowhere. Please be realistic - start today by putting a value on your freedoms, and asking yourself what you are personally prepared to expend in order to preserve them. Someone who cannot even be bothered to make a couple of phone calls or send some letters gets all they deserve - but I'm talking about from today onward, as you know where you stand now.

All the antis must be loving it: ecig supporters are so heavily committed that they send a few thousand emails (= spam) and do nothing much else. In contrast they put pressure on, every which way they can. It's why they are on top and you are going to get a medical inhaler @ $80 with no options. And don't complain to me, look in a mirror and ask yourself, "Did I do everything I possibly could to help?".

Thank you, that is one hell of a post, and needed to be said.

I use my phone, and I make sure I get noticed one way or another.
We all NEED to make sure we get noticed.

 

[DC2]

CASAA donations haven't even reached $900.

You gotta be kidding me here, seriously, because $200 of that is mine.

 

[DC2]

Those are important points Kristin.

And they suggest one thing which you might do rolygate: post a call to action once a week or so. If every forum member has to dismiss a site-wide announcement once or more per week it doesn't seem to me to be very onerous and it may motivate more people to act.

Try a slightly different approach each time and see how many people act on the petition or whatever of the week in the following day to learn what kind of messages result in action.

If it were me I'd be posting an announcement something like the following with new variations at least once a week until the petition has gained thousands more signatures:

Our right to vape is under serious attack. You can make a difference in the battle to keep vaping legal. Before dismissing this message please sign the petition to the AAP, ACS, AHA, American Legacy Foundation, ALA, AMA, ASH, FDA, Public Citizen and Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids to change their policy. Follow the instructions at http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-sign-petition-raise-awareness-ecig-bans.html to sign the petition.

Maybe even post every two or three days, with updates on number of signatures or comments (while re-pushing something which has already been mentioned) and a "c'mon people" kind of comment if numbers aren't going up quickly or a "doing great, keep it up" if numbers are moving well. Make it a feel good group effort if possible, keeping in mind that applying a stick in site-wide messages would definitely be poorly perceived.

This is my feeling as well....

I think the issue might be that you can only clear all those announcements by registering and clearing them. If you have dozens to wade though you might just leave the forum altogether instead of registering.

I am guessing this is what is keeping the number of announcements down.
And I can totally understand that if that is the case.

 

[D103]

I agree with you Drozd and thank you for your reasoned post. I failed to mention that I do recognize the legitimacy of ID, in some cases, as carrying more weight and/or trust, so to speak, I guess I didn't do a very good job of expressing my opinion that I feel a large degree of responsibility and accountability should go along with that - namely how you use that 'role' and more importantly, how you treat others. Ah, Hell, maybe I just expect too much from some people - probably - anyway, I should just chill out.
Thanks again for your post!

 

[JimStanmore]

Main point: whatever it is "we" are doing is not working. (BTW, I agree with Roly and Kristin.)

The problem I have is that every time I get ready to call someone or go see them I think, "Will it affect my teaching or consultant career?" I wonder if a call will be made and my yard will start getting extra inspections from the city code commission. Grants can be canceled, forms lost and checks misplaced. Real chicken, I know and not the me I remember from years past. I have never had this fear before but, for some reason all I can think about is that I have two kids and a wife. The problem is that I am not helping other families keep their loved ones alive. (I used to carry scissors in high school and college and sneak up and cut off the ends of people's cigarettes to stop them from smoking. I don't know how I survived that...) I daily get so upset that I go from having a tear in my eye to being boiling mad.

The US dislikes smokers or any behavior, for that matter, that has any kind of addiction (look at the chocolate commercials...) In their eyes, a PV is a) smoking and b) an addiction. I just wonder how many other people that are currently unemployed/self-employed or work in a sensitive job worry about jeopardizing their future prospects by becoming highly visible? I haven't even mustured the courage to explain to my wife the perfidity of the FDA, et al. She even thinks my needing coffee every day is a bad addiction.

I still hang my head in shame that I am a contractor to the president of our local city council and I did not say word one about the upcoming ban in NJ. And this person was on the platform (in the back) when President Obama came to the area because of her support and ties.

So, Roly and others what you say does hurt. It does make me want to lash back. But it is true and I stand convicted. I can rationalize and justify all I want to, but there was only one amicus brief filed on our side. Every time I have seen someone try to get suppliers together it has been shot down. In fact, one supplier even flamed another one for trying to start something (the flamer is the ONLY supplier on my never buy from list.) I have many times stepped out to lead the charge on something and turned around to find myself alone - and it not bother me. But, this time feels so different - who am I to say the FDA is wrong? People usually listen to me as a leader so, I would be listened to, but what will happen to my credibility?

In closing, I ask what can those of us scared people do? I tried to donate to CASAA a few days ago, but I had trouble finding a donation button. I would like to join an amicus brief, but every time discussion (that I can find) is started it goes nowhere. How can I get physically involved without putting my face in front of someone that can use their power to make my family's life unbearable? I have a high IQ and tons of knowledge, but I feel ignorant and helpless in the face of this. Give me a thread or a subgroup with ideas/instructions or anything. Some wise person advise me how to have my cake and eat it too.


This is a long post, but I really have trouble believing I am the only one with these fears.

(Cowers shivering in his shuttered home waiting for the storm troopers to come...)

P.S. I think we really need to stop fighting each other. I see it so much on ECF - the wind is knocked out of the sails repeatedly by our squabbling in a quasi-derogatory fashion.

 

[Vocalek]

On any page of the CASAA site, there is a set of tabs across the top. Click on the tab Support CASAA.

[Click the image below to enlarge]

View attachment 9433

On the Support CASAA page, scroll down until the form is visible. Fill in the blanks.

[Click image to enlarge]

View attachment 9434

When you click the Continue button, you will be taken to a secure page to enter your credit card information.

 

[JimStanmore]

Thanks, I must have been blind to not look there. I think I thought that it would have been more prominent on my member's page.

Also, just volunteered to be a local CASAA rep. I guess I shamed/prodded myself into it with my rant and, Roly, maybe it does work...

+1

 

[Luisa]

How utterly sad and disappointing. While the points made re: needing more involvement, e-mails are not the way to go, we need money, people making phone calls and snail mail and personal visits to legislators, etc. are all certainly valid, the "brutally harsh", condescending attempt to "shame" people into action is as old and tired as the manager's cartoon avatar and unfortunately time tested as being ineffective because when all is said and done it will inevitably alienate many more people than it can ever hope to rally. There is true leadership and then there is using the bully pulpit, as a bully and implying superiority and legitimacy through comments such as "...Because of the position I'm in I get to see many things you don't and it is my duty.....". True knowledge is power; to claim to have an 'inside track on things' in order to bolster one's opinion and justify 'the whip' is quite simply weakness and, by definition, the antithesis of leadership. We need true leaders, not some sad, old, pathetic coaching technique of calling team members whimps in order to shame them into playing harder. Just my opinion.

And just what would you do or what have you done to further this cause? Time is running out

 

[kristin]

"Only 3 have contacted me"...? I contacted you personally along with many others, months ago, when you wrote your 1st article asking for input from users the ecig has helped. I have followed your postings and signed everything you have asked for, as well as Vocaleks and others. I've posted that it's shameful of the little response we get for such a simple request to support this cause.

Sorry, I meant only 3 New Yorkers have contacted me about New York.

 

[Luisa]

On any page of the CASAA site, there is a set of tabs across the top. Click on the tab Support CASAA.

[Click the image below to enlarge]

View attachment 9433

On the Support CASAA page, scroll down until the form is visible. Fill in the blanks.

[Click image to enlarge]

View attachment 9434

When you click the Continue button, you will be taken to a secure page to enter your credit card information.

Volcalek,I would like to issue a challenge to everyone on this forum. I challenge everyone to send a $10.00 donation to Casaa this week. It will be interesting to see how many members will do this in support of keeping ecigs legal. If you can give more,wonderful!! If you are serious about keeping your ecig,DONATE. Volcalek,can that be posted at the top of the site opening page along with the petition information? It will be revealing

 

[JustJulie]

<snip>
This is a long post, but I really have trouble believing I am the only one with these fears.

(Cowers shivering in his shuttered home waiting for the storm troopers to come...)

The first time you "out" yourself is kind of scary. If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty much "outed," and I doubt I've been put on any kind of watch list, and I've not noticed any strange cars parked in front of my house at odd hours of the day. Of course, my phone is tapped, so I have to watch what I say. (JUST KIDDING!)

Seriously, some well-reasoned letters to legislators and some phone calls won't ruin your credibility. You don't need to froth at the mouth when discussing the FDA . . . you can simply tell your personal story and explain why you feel e-cigarettes should remain legal and accessible to adults.

 

[Drozd]

The first time you "out" yourself is kind of scary. If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty much "outed," and I doubt I've been put on any kind of watch list, and I've not noticed any strange cars parked in front of my house at odd hours of the day. Of course, my phone is tapped, so I have to watch what I say. (JUST KIDDING!)

Seriously, some well-reasoned letters to legislators and some phone calls won't ruin your credibility. You don't need to froth at the mouth when discussing the FDA . . . you can simply tell your personal story and explain why you feel e-cigarettes should remain legal and accessible to adults.

Oh I've no doubt I've outed myself and have been put on a list somewhere...granted it's cuz I belong to an educational, historical re enactment, not for profit organization that has hundreds of thousands of members worldwide and has our own governing body and a standing army trained in the use of primative weapons...but we're way low priority....

 

[D103]

Luisa, I have done the following: written(snail mail) to both of my State Senators urging them to seriously investigate this technology before coming to any conclusions (included links to several good articles which explain the technology as well as clearly outline ALL the scientific research data currently available); have also written all the Iowa District Representatives as well as the Iowa General Assembly; I have written letters to legislators in Illinois and New York. I have participated in the various CASAA survey polls, signed petitions, including the petitions submitted by Dr. Joel Nitzkin to the FDA; I've written the FDA several times as a practicing, Cerified Health Care provider, urging them to reconsider their position and sharing my viewpoints from my particular field of Health Care - Substance Abuse; I've personally spoken to my superiors about this technology as well as other Treatment Directors and fellow colleagues, several of whom have themselves switched to using e-cigs and now pass on this information to their clients. I have posted comments on several healthcare websites and news websites where Kristin and Elaine have posted articles in support of this technology. I have written letters to President Obama urging him to demonstrate true leadership and avoid trying to be "politically correct" and/or succumbing to financial or other political pressures and to act "on Behalf of the People" and support Public Health Care Strategies of Harm Reduction. But, this is all beside the point, which you seem to have missed. My comments were addressing how persons in positions of power and/or leadership, to whatever degree, communicate with those with whom they claim to be allied and that brow beating people is not only abusive, in my opinion, but inevitably ineffective. You certainly don't have to tell me of the urgency of this "cause" but that urgency should in no way preclude using more effective tactics of "rallying the troops."