second hand vape.

[Despraci]

That's fine, I guess, as long as you realize that the same restrictions are being put on places you think it would be wrong...

--Public beaches
--Public parks
--Entire outdoor venues such as fairs or sporting events or concerts
--Entire university campuses
--Entire housing complexes

If you're good with that, then I guess you still won't have any concerns or complaints.

Public beaches, couldn't care less, family owns house with a beach.
Parks, don't go there and when I do I don't stay for more then a few hours. I can exhibit seld control that long.
I hate concerts and again I can exhibit self control
University, a little to old for school.
Housing complex, I owned them, no need to rent. And I permit vaping in my units / apartments.

I am also not one running around vaping in resturants, movie theaters, work, or around children. If vaping gets banned in public areas or businesses, don't blame me, blame those doing it and using the excuse "it's not illegal and I have rights". I do agree that banning out of fear is wrong, and I don't not agree with it at all, but people taking it to the extreme is what will lead to the downfall of vaping in many open air areas. It's a shame and I think it wrong as well, but some people like to see how far they can push the envelope.

So yeah I will politely vape where it doesn't bother people, just to be curtious, and if it starts to get banned in places... I am good. I really am anti-social anyways.

 

[stevegmu]

Workplace animosity is always great. We had a supervisor at work everybody hated. When we became a tobacco free site in 2011, he would still go out to smoke. One day, someone was in their car returning from break, took out his cell phone and recorded said supervisor smoking. The employee went to the plant manager, who walked the supervisor of over 30 years to the door and said he is fired. The supervisor had been warned twice already. Everybody cheered...

 

[SmokinRabbit]

It's a very similar issue to vaping. If I may, I'll highlight the issue with that parallel in mind. I'm a dog owner and it is very frustrating to go on holiday (vacation) to the sea-side and find there are no beaches that I can visit because they all have no dogs allowed. Now I'm a responsible dog owner and my dog is a responsible dog that acts with maturity. I'll pick up the poop and keep the dog under control, on a leash if appropriate. But every now and again, I might be distracted and not notice that the dog has pooped behind a rock. Similarly some children have no idea how to approach a strange dog and accidents are possible. So I can see that some busy family-oriented beaches might want to ban dogs. From your experience, there are obviously some dog owners who disregard others and bring us all into disrepute. Is it right that because of this, I should not be allowed to enjoy a nearly deserted beach with few children where my dog and I can easily not cause anyone any distress?

I think we're on the same page. Which is why I said "But I also don't go running around to every cop, every ranger, every town worker, screaming from the rooftops that dogs should just be banned everywhere. LOL"

Like you, I think the rules should be reasonable.

Sometimes the rules just get out of control, and while it seems like courteous behavior to others to just avoid vaping (or even smoking), there's does come a point where it's discourteous to vapers (and even smokers) to put rules into place that truly serve no purpose other than to keep some unreasonable anti-smoking fanatic quiet.

There was actually a "no sledding" sign on a beach I went to recently. My daughter and I got a good laugh at that.

 

[Spencer87]

so you didn't provide links to OP to justify his inconsiderate behavior in the office?

OK. Your just not very smart.
Or you can't read. I said I am More than happy stealth vaping and not blowing clouds.
What I am trying to fight at this point is not a right to vape in the office (although I do believe it shouldn't be an issue) if someone does have issue with it, I am okay stealthing it kinda. My coworkers seem fine as long as my clouds are no more than little wisps of Smoke coming from my mouth and disappearing seconds later. And only that if I'm forced to talk right away. But....now It's about education. I don't want someone going around thinking vaping should be illegal in parks and beaches and so on simply because they read some anti vaping propaganda.
Is that What you want? Should I just leave it alone and let her keep thinking vaping is almost as dangerous to the innocent bystanders as smoking is? Or should I try to educate. I'm all for vaping where I can't Smoke.... when no one has issue with it. For example.... when I am in a restaurant... where smoking is permitted.... I will ask for non smoking and vape..... also vaping in my school where I work in the change room for the staff where I am permitted to vape, but definitely not to Smoke. So yes. Vape where you can't Smoke.

Geez you are almost as annoying as her passing off your sanctimonious judgement of others because you assume their motive.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Workplace animosity is always great. We had a supervisor at work everybody hated. When we became a tobacco free site in 2011, he would still go out to smoke. One day, someone was in their car returning from break, took out his cell phone and recorded said supervisor smoking. The employee went to the plant manager, who walked the supervisor of over 30 years to the door and said he is fired. The supervisor had been warned twice already. Everybody cheered...

What a ....ty (reference to .... abuse) story. Are you really proudly present it?
What a shame...

 

[WharfRat1976]

There does not exist a long enough study to answer either side of this discussion. There is not a long enough study or large enough sample of how the byproducts of atomized PG, VG, Nic and flavoring effect the vaper let alone the receiver of 2nd hand vapor. Any "difinitive" answers in this thread are total BS. Any anology type responses are even bigger BS.

 

[rurwin]

You know it's INCONSIDERATE to have a battle of wits with the unarmed... Andria

No, just pointless. Your opponent never know when they're beaten and just keeps coming back.

More to the point “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” ― Mark Twain

... Although I think this particular disagreement has more to do with the Dr Johnson (disputed) quote:
The story goes that Dr Johnson and a companion were walking around old London, where the houses were built overhanging the already narrow street. The pair came across two housewives hurling insults and kitchen implements at each other from the upstairs windows of houses on opposite sides of the street. "They will never agree," observed the good doctor, "for they are arguing from different premises."

 

[Amraann]

I think we're on the same page. Which is why I said "But I also don't go running around to every cop, every ranger, every town worker, screaming from the rooftops that dogs should just be banned everywhere. LOL"

Like you, I think the rules should be reasonable.

Sometimes the rules just get out of control, and while it seems like courteous behavior to others to just avoid vaping (or even smoking), there's does come a point where it's discourteous to vapers (and even smokers) to put rules into place that truly serve no purpose other than to keep some unreasonable anti-smoking fanatic quiet.

There was actually a "no sledding" sign on a beach I went to recently. My daughter and I got a good laugh at that.

Back when I was little people use to be able to sled on plastic sleds on the sand dunes at National Sea Shores. The sign was not as ridiculious as some may think. It was determined that sledding added erosion to the property and since it is a protected place, no one is permitted to sled down the dunes any more.
Now back to your regulary scheduled program........................

 

[supertrunker]

There does not exist a long enough study to answer either side of this discussion. There is not a long enough study or large enough sample of how the byproducts of atomized PG, VG, Nic and flavoring effect the vaper let alone the receiver of 2nd hand vapor. Any "difinitive" answers in this thread are total BS. Any anology type responses are even bigger BS.

Seems there have been a few studies over quite a period of time. As for toxic emissions - scroll down to figure 3.

Safety evaluation and risk assessment of electronic cigarettes as tobacco cigarette substitutes: a systematic review

T

 

[AndriaD]

No, just pointless. Your opponent never know when they're beaten and just keeps coming back.

More to the point “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” ― Mark Twain

... Although I think this particular disagreement has more to do with the Dr Johnson (disputed) quote:
The story goes that Dr Johnson and a companion were walking around old London, where the houses were built overhanging the already narrow street. The pair came across two housewives hurling insults and kitchen implements at each other from the upstairs windows of houses on opposite sides of the street. "They will never agree," observed the good doctor, "for they are arguing from different premises."

Heh, that's a good one. Leave it to the good Dr. I';m also very fond of the quote attributed to Churchill, at some formal function; some old biddy observed that he was drunk. He replied "Yes I am. And you, madam, are ugly. But in the morning, I will be sober."

But I've just always had a true enjoyment of the adage about engaging in a battle of wits with the unarmed -- the unarmed are so much more prevalent!

Andria

 

[BockinBboy]

Seems there have been a few studies over quite a period of time. As for toxic emissions - scroll down to figure 3.

Safety evaluation and risk assessment of electronic cigarettes as tobacco cigarette substitutes: a systematic review

T

Thank you for the link SuperT

Also, check out the section toward the bottom titled 'passive vaping' - that would be relevant to the OP in regards to providing information on the subject for which his coworker is showing her concern.

- Bboy

 

[Steamer861]

I read thru 10 pages of this discussion and have to say IF there is no harm in second hand vapour. Why should we not be able to do it any were? Some have said it is inconsiderate to put some things into some one else's environment. To this I say I really can't stand perfume! Can I ask everyone to stop polluting my environment with it?
More studies need to be done on second hand vapour, and if indeed it is harmless. Anyone of legal age should be able to vape were ever and when ever they want!
It should be your choice not some one else's If it is not harmful to them.

 

[AndriaD]

I read thru 10 pages of this discussion and have to say IF there is no harm in second hand vapour. Why should we not be able to do it any were? Some have said it is inconsiderate to put some things into some one else's environment. To this I say I really can't stand perfume! Can I ask everyone to stop polluting my environment with it?
More studies need to be done on second hand vapour, and if indeed it is harmless. Anyone of legal age should be able to vape were ever and when ever they want!
It should be your choice not some one else's If it is not harmful to them.

I agree about perfume! There are very, very few I can tolerate at all. And to make it farrrrrrrrr worse, most people seem to wear about 100 times more than they need -- here's a clue: no one should smell your perfume who doesn't have their nose in your neck! Someone who's only close enough to shake your hand should NOT smell it!!!!!!!

Andria

 

[Traijan]

I vape but I hate second hand vapor. It does gross me out so when I vape around others, it's in outdoor settings. I'm obviously not concerned about the chemicals, it's just gross that this liquid that somebody vaporized and inhaled and then blew out their nose like a charging bull is lingering around my face indoors. So I tend to try to be courteous to people that do not vape or smoke by not vaping in their face. Hell even my wife and I have a deal that when we're in the car together neither of us will blow vapor out of our nose in big vape clouds just out of consideration for one another.

You'll never find me at a vape convention or in a vape shop that is "cloudy". We went into one vape shop near to where we are moving to, we both walked in and turned and walked right back out again as the entire place was foggy as if they had a fog machine going somewhere and yet there was only the workers in the shop there, no customers trying stuff out etc. We just need to realize that what is gross to one person may not be to another and as vapors or smokers need to be at least a little courteous to others that do not smoke or vape. That's my opinion anyway. I used to make a living picking up dead people for the coroners office, most people would find that utterly gross and disgusting, but it didn't gross me out although I'm thankful it's no longer my job.

But back to the discussion, beyond the vaping in somebody's face, there is many times that i've gone into one of our local vape shops and the air is putrid with acrid vapor. Usually it's the one person behind the counter that likes to vape hops blood (a local eliquid) and it's so acrid that I just buy what I'm wanting and leave instead of socializing. There are so many scents that people vape, it's very similar to people that wear all kinds of different perfumes and aftershaves (the college where my wife works every kid there wears gobs and gobs of cologne to the point where I have to wait outside of the building where she teaches as it's so offensive to the nose), but we have the "visual" thing going against us too, so along with the smell of somebody elses vapor we also have the plumes of vapor that people can see and obviously this is going to gross people out no matter that it's an oil vapor or tobacco smoke.

 

[dchemist]

Anyone know what this is?

View attachment 367500

Ok, so I got bored with reading but did scroll ahead only to be saddened that no one came up with NFPA label!

 

[supertrunker]

There is no discernible danger from second hand vape - and in fact, in any office environment there are many things worse - photocopiers and printers for example.

I am not making the case for people being able to vape anywhere as a right, because in a civilised society i have some obligation not to go out of my way to annoy people that may not like the smell of what i vape, whether it's harmful to them or not.

T

 

[AndriaD]

I vape but I hate second hand vapor. It does gross me out so when I vape around others, it's in outdoor settings. I'm obviously not concerned about the chemicals, it's just gross that this liquid that somebody vaporized and inhaled and then blew out their nose like a charging bull is lingering around my face indoors. So I tend to try to be courteous to people that do not vape or smoke by not vaping in their face. Hell even my wife and I have a deal that when we're in the car together neither of us will blow vapor out of our nose in big vape clouds just out of consideration for one another.

You'll never find me at a vape convention or in a vape shop that is "cloudy". We went into one vape shop near to where we are moving to, we both walked in and turned and walked right back out again as the entire place was foggy as if they had a fog machine going somewhere and yet there was only the workers in the shop there, no customers trying stuff out etc. We just need to realize that what is gross to one person may not be to another and as vapors or smokers need to be at least a little courteous to others that do not smoke or vape. That's my opinion anyway. I used to make a living picking up dead people for the coroners office, most people would find that utterly gross and disgusting, but it didn't gross me out although I'm thankful it's no longer my job.

But back to the discussion, beyond the vaping in somebody's face, there is many times that i've gone into one of our local vape shops and the air is putrid with acrid vapor. Usually it's the one person behind the counter that likes to vape hops blood (a local eliquid) and it's so acrid that I just buy what I'm wanting and leave instead of socializing. There are so many scents that people vape, it's very similar to people that wear all kinds of different perfumes and aftershaves (the college where my wife works every kid there wears gobs and gobs of cologne to the point where I have to wait outside of the building where she teaches as it's so offensive to the nose), but we have the "visual" thing going against us too, so along with the smell of somebody elses vapor we also have the plumes of vapor that people can see and obviously this is going to gross people out no matter that it's an oil vapor or tobacco smoke.

There is no discernible danger from second hand vape - and in fact, in any office environment there are many things worse - photocopiers and printers for example.

I am not making the case for people being able to vape anywhere as a right, because in a civilised society i have some obligation not to go out of my way to annoy people that may not like the smell of what i vape, whether it's harmful to them or not.

T

I find that I agree with just about everything in both these posts. I am quite militant about my rights as an adult human being not being abridged, and along with a natural right to save my own life by adopting a less-harmful vice than smoking, I feel quite often that my rights as a human being with a keen sense of smell are being trampled and dragged thru some very foul-smelling ooze. I object to car exhaust, and certainly diesel exhaust, the smell of freshly-laid asphault, the smell of the Walmart bathrooms, the various painfully acrid scents that people adorn themselves with, tobacco smoke, almost all disinfectants, and yeah, foggy vape shops. There is far less incentive to shop in a B&M, even one with a tasting bar, when the place is so odorous with sub-ohming fools' attempts to create weather that you can't smell anything but that often quite disagreeable stench -- how are you supposed to taste new flavors with THAT reek in your nose? I've been in a shop when 2-4 people were vaping, but on regular-resistance devices, and sure, for a few seconds after exhaling, there's a bit of a cloud around them, but it dissipates pretty quickly. I've also been a shop where ONE person was sub-ohming, and the entire store was filled with a thick cloud and a strong odor -- don't know what the odor was, because I was TRYING to taste some new juices, but my sense of taste and smell were so befuddled I would up buying some Halo Voodoo just because it actually seemed to HAVE a taste, but I swear I cannot figure out what's so great about it now.

Andria

 

[jpargana]

Public beaches, couldn't care less, family owns house with a beach.
Parks, don't go there and when I do I don't stay for more then a few hours. I can exhibit seld control that long.
I hate concerts and again I can exhibit self control
University, a little to old for school.
Housing complex, I owned them, no need to rent. And I permit vaping in my units / apartments.

I am also not one running around vaping in resturants, movie theaters, work, or around children. If vaping gets banned in public areas or businesses, don't blame me, blame those doing it and using the excuse "it's not illegal and I have rights". I do agree that banning out of fear is wrong, and I don't not agree with it at all, but people taking it to the extreme is what will lead to the downfall of vaping in many open air areas. It's a shame and I think it wrong as well, but some people like to see how far they can push the envelope.

So yeah I will politely vape where it doesn't bother people, just to be curtious, and if it starts to get banned in places... I am good. I really am anti-social anyways.

You must realize many people do not own a beach.
You must realize many people want to go to parks.
You must realize many people like to go to concerts - many times, with massive fog machines already in place.

You do agree that "banning out of fear is wrong".

And yet, you seem to be OK with banning our devices in places where you do not need to go, or places where you do not like to go.


Do you realize that a ban on the e-cig in places like beaches and parks, is a ban born out of fear??

From an health perspective, those bans are already overkill - even for tobacco.
Unless you can post studies, or "studies", to show us that second-hand smoke, or vapour, OUTSIDE, in an health hazard...

What if other people are "bothered" by our second-hand vape, OUTSIDE, exactly because they "fear" it? Because they know nothing about it?

Should WE, the ones who like or need to go to those places (not you, certainly!) still be courteous roll over to accomodate for those people's ignorance?

 

[bluecat]

Unfortunately, we will only be able to prove it isn't harmful when it has been researched, then that research researched, and then researched again.

Personally, I don't vape indoors unless the establishment allows it. Even then, I can go an hour, two or eight before I need a vape.

I just heard on the way into work this morning that the WHO is calling for them to be regulated and banned indoors until it has been determined that it poses no threat to bystanders. Anyway it is their air too. I would rather they go after that big rig that is in front of me on 75S that is blowing diesel smoke into my car.

 

[Despraci]

You must realize many people do not own a beach.
You must realize many people want to go to parks.
You must realize many people like to go to concerts - many times, with massive fog machines already in place.

You do agree that "banning out of fear is wrong".

And yet, you seem to be OK with banning our devices in places where you do not need to go, or places where you do not like to go.


Do you realize that a ban on the e-cig in places like beaches and parks, is a ban born out of fear??

From an health perspective, those bans are already overkill - even for tobacco.
Unless you can post studies, or "studies", to show us that second-hand smoke, or vapour, OUTSIDE, in an health hazard...

What if other people are "bothered" by our second-hand vape, OUTSIDE, exactly because they "fear" it? Because they know nothing about it?

Should WE, the ones who like or need to go to those places (not you, certainly!) still be courteous roll over to accomodate for those people's ignorance?

I agree that banning isn't the correct thing to do, and maybe it's not you me or majority of people that are the issue. But if you look at the extreme possibility of what could happen... How you would like to sit I a movie theater begin a chain vaping cloud chaser and when you ask them to politely stop, he tells you to "F off it's not illegal". How would you feel then, or would you just accept it as a fellow vaper?

Personally if I was out with my fiancée or if I had kids try to watch a movie and that was to happen, I'd be getting lead out in handcuffs. But you think it's ok to impose upon others in this manner? I absolutely disagree weather second hand vapor is harmful or not, it's down right rude and ignorant, and to think otherwise is ludicrous.

For public parks and beaches, no I don't hope it gets banned, but the above example is why it may. People that take things to the extreme and push the envelope all the time will lead to an over action. When something irritates the majority, the reaction is never a sensible one. It will be extreme and unfair to those that we're being curtious and considerate of others.

The banning will only begin with indoors environments and go for there. Do I want it that, absolutely not, but you have to look at the history of public reaction and crap people believe on the internet to make a logical guess as to what will happen. I think open air vaping is 100% fine, I hope that doesn't change. But it's the ones that wish to cloud chase in restaurants, movie, stores... Etc that will be the downfall.

And if it gets to the point that vaper's can't be considerate to others and bans start getting passed, then I know I at least didn't add to the hatred, fear, or annoyance that lead to the over actions. You can track down those that were doing it and couldn't exhibit self-control and blame them... I will sit back in my little bubble world and just smile.