Selecting the correct juice density.
- Thread starter Al Bundy
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Just to clarify.
According to this poll the average vaper gets less than 60 puffs per ml - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html
Al says these figures aren't accurate and somehow makes an adjustment ... based on what he thinks the FDA will do. The fact that most of the people on the poll agree means they can't do maths.
If they aren't lying and the general agreement stands regardless of equipment (same argument for 12 puffs and brand of cigs, we're working with averages here):
If they vape for 12 puffs, that's a fifth of a ml or a fifth of the mg strength of eliquid.
If they vape 10mg eliquid for 12 puffs then that's 2mg.
6 puffs would equal 1mg 12 puff cigarette, not 12.
vaping and smoking do not compare by puff count, they have different techniques. Even if you think the maths has anything to do with the FDA or that two puffs is more dangerous than one.
The healthiest option is probably to stop claiming that puff counts have any meaning here.
According to this poll the average vaper gets less than 60 puffs per ml - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html
Al says these figures aren't accurate and somehow makes an adjustment ... based on what he thinks the FDA will do. The fact that most of the people on the poll agree means they can't do maths.
If they aren't lying and the general agreement stands regardless of equipment (same argument for 12 puffs and brand of cigs, we're working with averages here):
If they vape for 12 puffs, that's a fifth of a ml or a fifth of the mg strength of eliquid.
If they vape 10mg eliquid for 12 puffs then that's 2mg.
6 puffs would equal 1mg 12 puff cigarette, not 12.
vaping and smoking do not compare by puff count, they have different techniques. Even if you think the maths has anything to do with the FDA or that two puffs is more dangerous than one.
The healthiest option is probably to stop claiming that puff counts have any meaning here.
Al you can't work out equivalence for e-cig puff vs analogue puff basis until you know the nicotine absorption rate for e-cig .(At an educated guess but never the less still a guess i would say it's around 60%).
It's around 10% for analogues i believe .The figure of 1mg for nicotine strength here is absorbed nicotine and not available nicotine.(I read that the average content of cigarette nicotine is much higher at 15-20mg per cig) .
From what my own inbuilt nicotine censor (my brain)and much
trial and error ,i got a strength of about 14mg/ml to be equal to my tobacco roll ups puff for puff . This isn't far off what some ecig manufacturer's where recommending with e-liquid to tobacco equivalence's tables that I read.
And that's what I was initially concerned about. So you're saying you believe the absorption rate for vapor is higher than from analogs? I just assuming that the analog absorption is approximately equal to the vapor absorption.
According to the Erowid link I posted earlier using the Cambridge tests, a cig will yield .7 mg nicotine. Based on what the analog is yielding, an equivalent amount is vaped based on the analog, so 12 puffs @ 7mg density. So even if the absorption rate are different, the yield from the e-cig will be equivalent to the yield from the analog.
Once again, 6 puffs / .1 ml could be do to equipment inefficiency. Quite frankly there are too many variables one would have to control to estimate the puffs per .1ml, but from what I've read, not all e-cigs are created equally.
Based on you using 6 puffs / .1 ml as an average, your position implies that even the very BEST e-cig on earth cannot outperform 6 puffs / .1 ml.
If I really wanted to nitpick on your nonexistent methodology, I could argue the sample size required to estimate the number of puffs using even simple random sampling (23 is a complete joke) is horribly insufficient, the votes are not based on precision measurements, the frequency ranges are all over the place, etc.
I could keep at it all day, but the point is your "poll" is meaningless. You might want to reconsider touting it around as evidence.
Here's the problem I see:
11 0.55 0.44 0.22 9.1
You're saying 9.1 drops = 1 cig, that's roughly 0.05 ml / drop * 9.1 drops = 0.455 ml per 1 cig @ 11 mg density.
How is that possible? Oh I see, you're using 2mg as intake / cig. That's completely wrong, the highest nicotine yield of any cigarette is 2mg (English Ovals). It varies depending on brand.
Check this site:
Erowid Tobacco Vault : Info on Nicotine Content of Cigarette Brands
Yes it's gotta be higher than analogue absorption work it out .You where assuming 100% for both analogue and e-cig weren't you. ?
Recheck your math .think you will find about 60% for ecig put's it around the
ball park of strength 14mg/ml to be equal in puffs to a 1mg ABSORBED tobacco cig . It's to late here for me to start doing sums .
Recheck your math .think you will find about 60% for ecig put's it around the
ball park of strength 14mg/ml to be equal in puffs to a 1mg ABSORBED tobacco cig . It's to late here for me to start doing sums .
Al, do you even have time to vape with all this overdone math and calculation for the exact golden amount of fluid per day to replace exactly one pack of cigs?
put down the protractor, have a beer and start vaping.
just sayin.
while your obsession is...intimidating and impressive, i think as shown by 65 replies so far that no one knows 100% what the answer is, and all of it is going to be guessing.
what if you spill a drop down the side of your cart? what if some excess is on your fingertips? what if a drop seeps out of the air hole?
chaos!
also, given a group of all female, genetically created dinosaurs, they will adapt and reproduce.
dinosaurs also love nicotine.
put down the protractor, have a beer and start vaping.
just sayin.
while your obsession is...intimidating and impressive, i think as shown by 65 replies so far that no one knows 100% what the answer is, and all of it is going to be guessing.
what if you spill a drop down the side of your cart? what if some excess is on your fingertips? what if a drop seeps out of the air hole?
chaos!
also, given a group of all female, genetically created dinosaurs, they will adapt and reproduce.
dinosaurs also love nicotine.
Yes it's gotta be higher than analogue absorption work it out .You where assuming 100% for both analogue and e-cig weren't you. ?
Recheck your math .think you will find about 60% for ecig put's it around the
ball park of strength 14mg/ml to be equal in puffs to a 1mg ABSORBED tobacco cig . It's to late here for me to start doing sums .
Yes, I was basing the total yield amounts.
An analog according to that site yields .7 mg / cig (of my brand). BASED ON THAT, I calculated the appropriate juice density to also yield .7 mg / equivalent cig.
So if your body is absorbing 100% of the YIELD in that study, then you're absorbing 100% of the YIELD of the e-cig equivalent. Does that make sense?
I'm just trying to determine the right amounts. I don't want to increase my nicotine intake and dependence. That's the issue at hand. People vaping the 36 mg density are doing precisely that.
Is that why you started vaping? To increase the amount of nicotine you're getting? When you did smoke analogs, did you smoke 5 at the same time?
i think trying to measure nic intake by # of puffs is close to impossible..way too many uncontrollable variables. If one is concerned about controlling nic intake, they should drip smoke exclusively based on potency of a drop of a particular density of juice.
Well, the FDA is starting to look into it and they're going to ask the same questions. You're going to need more of an argument than that to keep them from regulating the hell out of it.
I'm just being cautious. Too much of anything isn't good for you, but these questions need answers. Dancing around them and guessing isn't going to yield any answers.
@Al I agree with you about controlling nic intake. i started vaping to reduce avoid carcinogens and to ultimately taper off nic addiction.
Carcinogens..check.
nic addiction..unknown. I've lost track of how much nic I intake on a daily basis. Am I more addicted now than I was when I was back on analogs? Nope. I smoke analogs on weekends and noticed that I need/tolerate much less now. obviously this is subjective
Carcinogens..check.
nic addiction..unknown. I've lost track of how much nic I intake on a daily basis. Am I more addicted now than I was when I was back on analogs? Nope. I smoke analogs on weekends and noticed that I need/tolerate much less now. obviously this is subjective
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