Senate rejects challenge to FDA tobacco bill

[Terraphon]

Great...Now the Senate is going to help the FDA ban chicken.

How am I supposed to eat chicken fried rice? sweet and sour chicken? mala chicken? Kung Pao chicken? General Tso's chicken? chicken and broccoli?

pfsht!

 

[Two-A-T]

No.

Debating about who is the better debater, challenging each others' political views, voicing death-wishes, etc...is not on topic.

As long as we're talking about the bill, the FDA, the Senate, etc...all is well. Let's just stick to those topics, though.

Tryin to, Sir!

Like I said, sorry for my involvement in the hijack.

 

[nash076]

Back to the subject:

Is the FOIA amendment going to kill this thing? Dems in the Senate seem to be split over this, but Reid seems to be assisting in tacking this rider onto anything that moves. Could this kill the bill? Or will it just get passed and then stripped out of the bill in the House/Senate committee?

Keep in mind, the Obama administration is supporting the suppression of these photos. That means they want some form of this FOIA exclusion passed, and if it ends up on Obama's desk with the amendment intact, he'll still sign it.

 

[Bones]

I've said it before and I'll say it again -

There are MANY MANY types of personal vaporizers out there - Go to any "smoke shop" and you will see a wall of them - They are being sold as a "healthier way to use tobacco" They even come with a sad little sack of tobacco - Even though everyone knows what they are really used for - The E-Cigs are only a "drug delivery device" if they are packaged and sold WITH nicotine and advertised with medical sounding claims -

FDA may end up being able to ban and or regulate the nicotine fluid once this all shakes out -MAYBE- BUT - It can not ban the device if it is packaged as something other that does not contain nicotine - Some sites sell juices with Vitamins in them - PV's of the type we are concerned with here could easily be sold as "Vitamin Supplement Delivery Systems" and still be on the shelves without a problem -

Sad to say but the real scrutiny arose when some REALLY STUPID e-cig dealers started making medical claims about their products - and making them look like a cigarette - Not to mention encouraging users to flaunt them in the face of smoking bans - Even with all this going on they continue to make these types of claims - STUPID!

They knew the rules and chose to break them - These dealers are who your anger needs to be directed at not the FDA - The FDA's hand is being forced on this - They really don't want to deal with it -

Write to all these dealers who make these claims and tell them to please stop posting such claims on their sites - Look at JantyUSA's site - They list appropriate toxicity warnings and give all the scientific facts about what is in the juice - but NOWHERE do they make medical or stop smoking claims - in fact it says this:

"Products on the website are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Information and statements made are for educational purposes and are not intended to replace the advice of your health care professional. By purchasing these products, you agree to use products at your own risk. Under no circumstances will Janty USA/JANTY™ be held responsible or liable, directly or indirectly, for any loss or damage that is caused or alleged to have been caused in connection with use of, or reliance on any product on this site."

That is FDA APPROVED LANGUAGE - This is precisely why Janty is still getting all of it's shipments - THEY FOLLOW THE RULES! Do you really think that they would be spending money to revamp their site and add new products if they thought they were about to be shut down by the FDA?

We all know what these things are for - They don't have to SPELL IT OUT!
If you even mention the word "...." in a "smoke shop" - You are escorted to the door -In order to be legal in that arena all you gotta do is call them "water pipes" You just have to keep a distance between the DEVICE and the actual USE of that device - Even if everyone knows otherwise -

So are we talking about black market or homemade nicotine juice? - Yep - If it comes to that - But the devices will still find their way to the market - This is why I feel no need to own 157 atomizers - IF and/or When the time comes there will be warning and then I will buy a barrel or two of juice! And if you are one of those many here who claim to use NO NICOTINE in your e-cig - Stop worrying - You can sell or make flavored Glycerin ALL DAY LONG - Not a problem -

Personally, I do not think it will come to this - at least not for a while - Not only is this current bill getting tied up - but Obama is determined to do something about the Health Care Plan before August and the end of the current session - This will push the tobacco debate back even further because the Health Care debate is going to fill up everyone's Filibuster calender for the rest of this current session -

Sorry to rant but I'm really sick of hearing ppl worry about the DEVICE being banned - That simply will not happen under any version of reality - Call it a "Pencil Warmer" if you want to - It'll be there - And we all know good and well (just like the "water pipes") we will all find a way to fill it with what we want -

~peace

 

[DebiDoes2]

I've said it before and I'll say it again -

...........

Personally, I do not think it will come to this - at least not for a while - Not only is this current bill getting tied up - but Obama is determined to do something about the Health Care Plan before August and the end of the current session - This will push the tobacco debate back even further because the Health Care debate is going to fill up everyone's Filibuster calender for the rest of this current session -

Hi All, I found this to be inlightning and I do hope you are right.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I've said it before and I'll say it again -

Post of the day. Nice work, Bones.

 

[Bones]

Post of the day. Nice work, Bones.

LOL - Thank you sir

 

[enrogae]

I hope he is correct as well, but I fear he will not be. Water bongs, pipes and hookah's/vaporizers do not threaten the tobacco or pharmaceutical companies, nor tax dollars, the way that e-cigs do. A flat out ban wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I hope he is right...and it's okay to hope. When you are dealing with an organization that uses scientific-sounding arguments to argue things that are decidedly not scientific, and one that often wins with such tactics, just about anything is possible, however.

 

[Bones]

Again - That's the JUICE you are talking about - and I fully admitted that it may come to a ban on that - -NOT THE DEVICE - You wanna fret the loss of the juice - Go right ahead -
But the DEVICES CAN NOT BE BANNED - THINK!

That would be like banning a concept -

You obviously didn't get what I'm saying

- Paranoia - The Destroyer -

 

[enrogae]

LOL -
You don't get it -
Water Pipes Hukas And Bongs ARE SOLD TO BE USED WITH TOBACCO!

I do get it. They are sold for this, but the percentage of sales that they draw from cigarette companies is nominal. It's not even worth big tobacco's notice. E-cigs, if they become widely known, will be... and they know it.

I'm sorry, but I just disagree with that corroboration. They can, and might, be banned. I hope I am wrong and you are right...but I fear it may not be thus. I mean...they tried to take Cheerios off the shelves and it's not tobacco OR a drug delivery device...lol

 

[Bones]

wow you responded during an edit - LOL -

That was wild and confusing -

 

[Bones]

LOL -
Not sure how you did that - But you responded to something that I was still editing that didn't even get posted -
Would you like to respond to my final post
LMAO

 

[Bones]

They did not try to take Cheerios off the shelf - just made them change the wording - And they were ABSOLUTELY right on that one - Cheerios - Like the e-cig dealers I mentioned - Broke the rules -

Man this is a panicky paranoid bunch on here - Too much nicotine?

LMAO -

 

[enrogae]

LOL -
Not sure how you did that - But you responded to something that I was still editing that didn't even get posted -
Would you like to respond to my final post
LMAO

Not much else to add. It's not really a concept, it's a device. Without FDA-Approved testing they can ban a concept anyways. Nicotine Patch companies had to prove that this concept/method of delivery was safe when regulated (or at least, pay off the FDA to pretend they did such) before the FDA allowed it to go to market. It wasn't just what was in the patch -- it was the patch itself and the testing on absorption levels. They don't even want to recognize that PG is inhaled in other devices they approve (Albuterol Inhalers)...as of now they are saying they have no ideas of the effect of PG inhalation. This is the organization we are dealing with here! I know I'm talking about chemicals, but the method of delivery is being questioned by the FDA as well. There is no concoction for this device that the FDA recognizes as "tested and safe" and so, based on that, they can assume that there is no safe use for it and ban the device outright.

There's so much the corrupt FDA could do. They could require that PV devices require a prescription...which would drive up the cost and prevent us from getting them for years (it's not easy to have an imported drug/drug delivery device approved for sale at pharmacies). They could ban the device until it's been tested, or PROVEN that it can be safely used without nicotine. The function of pipes was common knowledge -- and the effects of tobacco inhalation has been proven. The function of the e-cig is not common knowledge, and the effects of e-cig juice inhalation (even without nicotine) has been ignored by the FDA because it is more beneficial to protect their supporters/tax income.

Point blank... we are talking about an organization that is corrupt through-and-through. There was an article posted on this forum earlier about the scientists at the FDA begging Obama to begin an inquiry into the underhanded practices by the higher-ups. To assume that there is no way that they can ban a device because it doesn't make logical sense is giving them far too much credit. I mean no offense whatsoever, but it seems somewhat naive. They are getting a bill strong consideration, and even backing by our smoker President, when that very bill goes against everything the FDA stands for. I wouldn't put anything past them...especially something that is self-serving to their own interests.

Again, I respect your view and I really hope and pray you are correct and my cynicism is misplaced or over-guaged. I hope and pray that, but my cynicism and practicality makes it difficult for me to expect anything but the worst.

(Okay, so there was much to add lol)

 

[Terraphon]

I agree that there is a lot of panic going on.

Chances are PV's will not be banned, they'll just be regulated (as will the juice) and the sale / importation of liquids will go underground for a while, while a big legal battle is fought.

Stocking up is probably a good idea as to avoid getting stuck out in the cold in case something DOES happen but the chicken little mentality is getting to be a bit much IMHO.

 

[ladybug]

I agree with BigJimW,Ted Kennedy got away after killing a young girl,I read a book about it,it was sad.She was alive in a air pocket,but he ran away,no help for her! That Ted Kennedy is digusting to me. Obama is doing a rotten job.

 

[Bones]

Nope - you are still missing the point -
The DEVICE without the NICOTINE is not a drug delivery system - Not a drug system = not under FDA jurisdiction - It is simply a little heater in a metal tube - the NICOTINE - they can ban - the DEVICE and it's concept THEY CAN NOT - Just sell it as SOMETHING ELSE - Disconect it from the Nicotine -

You are not being able to seperate the device from the nicotine - That was my entire point - you missed it -

 

[enrogae]

My point is that from the FDA viewpoint, there IS NO separation between the device and/or the nicotine. They have chosen to label it as a nicotine delivery device..and that is why they ARE seeking to ban it. If they decide to, there is nothing anyone can do about it without legal proceedings that could take years.

This is what they have said they want to do. This Bill, if it passes, includes legislation that WILL ban them. It's in the documents. Unless it get's amended out (unlikely) then when the bill passes the FDA will stop allowing the importation of the devices or anything to do with them.

Now, I will say...if they had never been marketed the way they are... as a cigarette alternative...then we likely wouldn't even be having this conversation. Things are the way they are, however, and that's why we're having this convo.

Terraphon you have to understand that if they are regulated by FDA standards it will be at least 8 years before they hit the market. That's how long their testing/approval process takes for a product like this. Regulation is, for 8 years at least, the same thing as a ban. Not to mention I don't know a single e-cig company out there that can afford the massive amounts of money it will require to do said testing.

 

[Surf Monkey]

My point is that from the FDA viewpoint, there IS NO separation between the device and/or the nicotine.

Source this, please.

 

[Bones]

Yes - True - But why are they conecting it? - Because it is being connected by the companies selling it - If it stops coming with nicotine - The connection is BROKEN and it stops being under their jurisdiction - It could be sold as a "Pencil Warmer" or Novelty item and labled with "NOT INTENDED FOR USE AS AN INHALATION DEVICE" and accoprding to the law - They have no further control on the DEVICE -

- late and i'm off to bed - dizzy from too much sucking on my new JantyStick -
If they take it - It'll be - FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!

~ peace