Seriously, what does happen to the PV & VG in your lungs???

[Rat2chat2]

Why do people keep saying it's "water vapor" when there is little to no water in the e-liquid? Granted, there is some water in the expelled vapor because it gets extracted from your lungs by the hygroscopic PG and VG, but the vapor we are inhaling has little, if any, water in it at all...at least that's the way I understand it...

I suppose you are partially right. I love to learn new things but it is my understanding that vaporizing glycerin and glycols creates H2O molecules. Most of what I have learned has been through ecf and google and both use the term "water vapor" freely when discussing vaping. I will probably continue to tell people that it is water vapor because quite frankly, it is easier to understand than if I said aerosol. Now to me that term would have scared me and most of the people I talk to about vaping. I am not a chemist, so I surely do not know and look forward to finding out more about this subject. But thank you for bringing it to my attention and I am sorry if I used the term wrong.

 

[capthook]

That is why Dr. F. started studying it. But not sure it mattered. He and the chemist that helped w/study, as well as a toxicologist that the certifying org in Canada used, all say that diketons are avoidable risk.

Yet, since the studies came out, it seems like every person on ECF is gobbling up custardy creamy juices with Acetyl Proprianyl etc. in it.

You can lead a horse to water.........

Not sure what good the studies are if people are going to remain in denial about the outcome of the studies.

HEY! Let's not get carried away with exaggerations! At least you said seems.

 

[BigEgo]

That is why Dr. F. started studying it. But not sure it mattered. He and the chemist that helped w/study, as well as a toxicologist that the certifying org in Canada used, all say that diketons are avoidable risk.

Yet, since the studies came out, it seems like every person on ECF is gobbling up custardy creamy juices with Acetyl Proprianyl etc. in it.

You can lead a horse to water.........

Not sure what good the studies are if people are going to remain in denial about the outcome of the studies.

Yes, but a lot of flavor companies now are taking that issue seriously. They are either removing those chemicals or mark it clearly on their sites which flavors do contain them. I was just in a vape shop today who does their own house juices. They mentioned that they are aware of the issue and only use flavors that do not contain either AP or diacetyl as per the manufacturer's website. They said they used FlavorWest for that reason specifically. It was good to see a small local shop being aware of this issue.

But, there might be more that we need to be concerned with than just diacetyl and AP, which is my concern. We just don't know for sure yet.

 

[daviedog]

Better the film is on my windshield, than in me.
Quantum leap? Maybe..

 

[Ryedan]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion/660243-god-awful-film-everything.html

been many topics like the above over the years. Cleaning vape stuff off glasses, windshields, computer screens, etc. is obviously not as easy as simply wiping it off with water.

I read some of the posts in that thread and I'm quite surprised and also fascinated. I've always used plain water and paper towels to clean the vapor condensation off my windows. It's still cold enough here for there to be a lot of condensation in a small room where I vape a lot. Gets the windows clean as a whistle if there are no other substances on them which is the case for me.

I do make my own juice and only use PG, VG, water if required and flavorings. Makes me wonder what is in other people's juices that makes the condensate behave so differently

 

[The Torch]

This thread is already beyond the number of pages I'm willing to read before replying, but I'll still write what I experience:

My lungs are a bit sensitive to some flavors and the more VG, the more sensitive I seem to be.

Nevertheless, in the morning when I brush my teeth, I often start coughing like mad and cough up some phlegm with a tiny bit of almost liquid white colored stuff, where that stuff used to be brown and harder and like a small ball. I then breathe better, while I used to see almost no difference when I coughed up the brown stuff. My personal non-scientific conclusion is that whatever is not metabolized comes back up, just like tar but only much faster. Perhaps it is helping getting rid of the leftover cigarette crap, who knows since no study seems to have looked into this aspect. I still feel a lot better than when I smoked and my 1 year vapaversary is coming up in 5-6 weeks.

 

[BluzKing]

I'm also sure there are many other variables involved. While it is indisputable that tobacco smoke is harmful and even deadly, I ran into an 87 year old gentlemen at a bar the other night while we were both exiled to the "smoking area" outside. I was vaping and he was smoking. He asked about my vaporizer, and I explained my vaping journey to him. He responded that he had smoked at least a pack a day for over 75 years, and was suffering no ill effects. How could I argue with HIM? He was in great shape for an 87 year old guy.

I enjoy vaping, even though there's someone, somewhere, every day that is telling me it's dangerous and deadly. Well, maybe it is. But so is driving, and I still do that every day. I do know, that when stretched out over a long enough time span, the mortality rate for all of us is 100%. Until that day comes, however it comes, I'm gonna do my best to enjoy life every single day, and I'm glad I have the freedom to do so, at least till they try to take that away too.

 

[Dioxyde]

That is why Dr. F. started studying it. But not sure it mattered. He and the chemist that helped w/study, as well as a toxicologist that the certifying org in Canada used, all say that diketons are avoidable risk.

Yet, since the studies came out, it seems like every person on ECF is gobbling up custardy creamy juices with Acetyl Proprianyl etc. in it.

You can lead a horse to water.........

Not sure what good the studies are if people are going to remain in denial about the outcome of the studies.

I have a question about that. There are many companies selling cream or custard juices that are claiming their ingredients are free of those chemicals, in your opinion is it wishful thinking to believe them? When these studies first came out one of the most popular juice companies around here basically stated it was impossible to make a custard juice without those chemicals, were they misleading people to defend their product or is that actually true and these other companies don't know what they're talking about? It would be nice to know the actual flavorings that must be avoided, if anyone can chime in on that. Anything creamy or custardy is pretty vague, and with a lot of juices it's really not clear what all is in there, so if I could for instance email a vendor and ask "does juice "X" contain the following flavorings?", that would be really helpful.

 

[Zakillah]

Vaporizing PG/VG (or anything but water) does not create water vapor. You'd have to burn the juice for that to happen, which is exactly what we dont want.
So no, straight up NO, it's not water vapor.

 

[dnield]

It is an alcohol and it is water soluble !

 

[edyle]

One concern that I do have is whether vg in the lungs might tend to encourage bacterial or fungal infections in the lungs.

vg is sweet, and attracts ants, so I would imagine that it might also feed bacterial and fungal microbes.

 

[Thespis]

One concern that I do have is whether vg in the lungs might tend to encourage bacterial or fungal infections in the lungs.

vg is sweet, and attracts ants, so I would imagine that it might also feed bacterial and fungal microbes.

PG inhibits the growth of fungi and microorganisms.
propylene glycol - definition of propylene glycol by Medical dictionary

 

[Bunnykiller]

if the film gets too bad, I just take off my glasses and it doesnt seem to matter anymore...

 

[Jumpin' In...]

I have a question about that. There are many companies selling cream or custard juices that are claiming their ingredients are free of those chemicals, in your opinion is it wishful thinking to believe them? When these studies first came out one of the most popular juice companies around here basically stated it was impossible to make a custard juice without those chemicals, were they misleading people to defend their product or is that actually true and these other companies don't know what they're talking about? It would be nice to know the actual flavorings that must be avoided, if anyone can chime in on that. Anything creamy or custardy is pretty vague, and with a lot of juices it's really not clear what all is in there, so if I could for instance email a vendor and ask "does juice "X" contain the following flavorings?", that would be really helpful.

Buy a bottle of "Custard's Last Stand" from Nicoticket, who freely advises you that their custard contains diketones and who notes that "it is *impossible* to produce the 'rich, creamy, decadent full mouth experience' in E-liquid without diketones." Read their disclosure for yourself on its webpage for "Custard's Last Stand".

Then order "Gotti" from Mountain Oak Vapors, who provides proof via test results on-website that its custard offering does not contain Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl (i.e. diketones).

Try them for yourself.

IMO, they both taste good, but there is a very different "mouth feel" - for lack of a better term - a "thickness" if you will - that is present when I vape Custard's Last Stand, that is conspicuously absent when I vape Gotti. My hypothesis is that I will need to abandon any desire for that "mouth-feel" if I am to get away from diketones in E-liquid.

I have "Fort Custard" on order from Ahlusion, which is supposed to contain no Diacetyl and at most unquantifable amounts of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl, and I suspect it - like "Gotti", will not have that "mouth feel".

(Jumpin' In hides in an effort to avoid the bashing that is sure to ensue...)

 

[skoony]

Googling can help:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion/660243-god-awful-film-everything.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ssion/514329-vapor-residue-inside-my-car.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...n/502661-film-windows-worse-than-analogs.html

Etc.

i personally have not observed nor know of no vaper that has
observed this mysterious problem with film.
i also do not know any sub-ohmers.
mike

 

[skoony]

GRAS ingredients and other chatter aside, no one really knows the long term implications of inhaling VG, PG and flavoring agents over the long term. Bottom line is that not vaping is healthier than vaping. Vaping, in the short term, is significantly less harmful than smoking. We all have to make the decision about what we choose to do.

yes we do know the long term effects. that's why the FDA approved nicotine
inhalers used for smoking reduction therapy for being safe for lifetime use.
long term studies indicated their safety.

 

[skoony]

Why do people keep saying it's "water vapor" when there is little to no water in the e-liquid? Granted, there is some water in the expelled vapor because it gets extracted from your lungs by the hygroscopic PG and VG, but the vapor we are inhaling has little, if any, water in it at all...at least that's the way I understand it...

because PG and VG are hygrogenic and absorbs water relitive
to the amount of humidity in the air. additionally depending on its
purity when purchased the remaining percentage of impurity's
is 99.9% water. water is added as it enhances vapor. some
blends contain as much as 20% additional water.(5-7% water typical.)
its the water that makes the whole thing work
we do not vaporize PG/VG. we vaporize water. its the force that
atomizes the base mix.(creates a very fine mist) which our lungs
inhale.(acting as the propellant.) the beauty of it is,it looks like smoke.
along the way it was noted that with more VG the thicker and more smoke
like the vapor appears.

mike

 

[skoony]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion/660243-god-awful-film-everything.html

been many topics like the above over the years. Cleaning vape stuff off glasses, windshields, computer screens, etc. is obviously not as easy as simply wiping it off with water.

I think that is what alien traveler is referring to.

whatever it is i'm willing to bet a little dollar store windex
will take care of it.

ike

 

[The Cloud Minder]

I suppose you are partially right. I love to learn new things but it is my understanding that vaporizing glycerin and glycols creates H2O molecules. Most of what I have learned has been through ecf and google and both use the term "water vapor" freely when discussing vaping. I will probably continue to tell people that it is water vapor because quite frankly, it is easier to understand than if I said aerosol. Now to me that term would have scared me and most of the people I talk to about vaping. I am not a chemist, so I surely do not know and look forward to finding out more about this subject. But thank you for bringing it to my attention and I am sorry if I used the term wrong.

-
I think your understanding is flawed. Vaping or no Vaping we naturally exhale some water vapor (baseline around 7-20ml/hr). Just inhaling VG or PG isn't going to cause it to molecularly dissasociate. Now what the body absorbs, of the PG and VG, could produce water as a product of metabolism (Propylene glycol → lactic acid → pyruvic acid → CO2 + water) (very similar for VG, except conversion to glyceraldehyde-3 phospahte, enters directly into the glycolosis pathway, but net end products are the same CO2 and H20) however, most of this water produced will be excreted in the urinary tract. It doesn't magically or even quickly transform into these metabolic end products. In essence, the amount of VG and PG produced water that is exhaled is insignificant to the normal exhalation of water.

This does not account for water picked up from the lung surface (or mucous membranes in the mouth, nose and throat) which I won't comment on, not having enough info in that area.

But pretty much what you exhale of PG/VG is what you inhaled, minus what has adhered to your inside surface area.

So you are mostly exhaling PG or VG and the water vapor you were already exhaling without vaping, and a little bit more for what is picked up by the hydroscopic propertirs of the vapor. It is disingenuous to claim "it's just really water vapor"

 

[Alien Traveler]

i personally have not observed nor know of no vaper that has
observed this mysterious problem with film.
i also do not know any sub-ohmers.
mike

Yours Universe is a happy one!