Silly QOD: What's in the exhaled vapor?

[ogredog]

Wll my house is one big cloud right now-of vapor...its vapor... not smoke. I went to get a soda and came back and my cat was vaping my pv. He looked up and said what? You got me addicted! lol I dont care if it is banned in public places so much, as long as they ban heavy perfume wearers (or non deodorant wearers) BUT DONT TAX IT! Besides just stealth vape. Noone wants a cloud of anything in their face. Be respectful

 

[JW50]

JW50 - I've looked at our bottles and they say mineral oil and come in different flavors. I haven't noticed any difference with all VG or 50/50 mix. No headaces at all, but seem to be sore all over. Probably just old age and not serious enough to look into. If I drop a dime on the floor, I'll pick it up. If I drop a penny, I have to think if the effort is worth it. That type of sore.

Hig

On the penny, no thought required by me. But it is good that the PG or VG provides the base for a good substitute to the smoking days for you. Your mention of the mineral oil made me think of the BBC broadcast dated 3/28/11 that is shown under "Important Notices" at the forum start page. You might take a look at that. BTW - agree that blowing at a sick person in a hospital its not only not good manners but it does e-cigging no favor either. In reality, we don't really know which party was blowing there. ASH will portray the incident in the light most favorable to banning anything connected to smoking. Vapers/e-cig'rs need to be smart enough not get trapped into such possible distortions by ASH (or other anti groups).

 

[JW50]

DVap - You might look at this link. (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/97/20714_NICOTROL INHALER 10MG, CARTRIDE_CHEMR.PDF) Thls (I think) is what Nicorette told FDA about its product and how delivered. Go backwards from end of document and stop at the page that is number "4.". That seems to say what that big pharma says about how thatr product works.

 

[DVap]

This raises an interesting (to some maybe) point. Those pharma nicotine inhalers do not use PG or VG (or heating apparently). From info they have filed with the FDA, they apparently are using synthetically manufactured nicotine. Perhaps nothing special there in the synthetic except likely no "X" factor present. But how does that nicotine get from the inhaler into the inhalers system? On particles normally in the air maybe?? Water vapor maybe?? When the user of the inhaler breaths out, wouldn't there likely still be some nicotine in that user's exhale (even with no visible "fog" present)? Then, for an e-cig, if the PG (or VG) is a solvent to carry the nicotine in the e-juice to the e-cig users system, wouldn't it be likely that much of the e-juice vapor/mist would condense/cool in the vaper's mouth and therefore simply be ingested into the digestive tract by e-cig user?

Nicotine does not necessarily need a "carrier" at all. Though the link you mentioned currently gives me a "server not found", it is sufficient for nicotine to volatilize into the inhaled air from the inhaler solid matrix. Nicotine that condenses in the mouth/throat will be swallowed to some degree, but it will also absorb through the mouth/throat at a rate slower and more sustained than lung absorption (see my blog post "an interesting study from way back").

 

[Wil]

Wll my house is one big cloud right now-of vapor...its vapor... not smoke. I went to get a soda and came back and my cat was vaping my pv. He looked up and said what? You got me addicted! lol I dont care if it is banned in public places so much, as long as they ban heavy perfume wearers (or non deodorant wearers) BUT DONT TAX IT! Besides just stealth vape. Noone wants a cloud of anything in their face. Be respectful

A cloud is a cloud is a cloud!

... and I couldn't agree more. The bottom line isn't really all that different than smoking... just don't bug anybody with it. Eventually people will be brought in from the ignorance storm and see that it's not typically something to be annoyed about...

 

[Old Chemist]

This raises an interesting (to some maybe) point. Those pharma nicotine inhalers do not use PG or VG (or heating apparently). From info they have filed with the FDA, they apparently are using synthetically manufactured nicotine.

Could you provide me with some reference? In fact, I don't believe it.

 

[Stevew443]

Personally, I never bought the second-hand-smoke argument by the anti-tobacco lobby, and I really don't worry about it with vapor. I think the second-hand-smoke thing is just a way to demonize smokers... "You aren't just hurting yourself, you're hurting EVERYBODY. Therefore, we can raise taxes on tobacco and treat you like a second rate citizen."

ok... I obviously have some strong feelings about that, but anyway, I wouldn't worry about it.

I never called it 2nd hand smoke. I always called it previously enjoyed smoke. Sometimes I would call it vintage smoke too.

 

[Shimmystylz]

i agree. no enough nicotine to be harmful to those around you.

 

[JW50]

Could you provide me with some reference? In fact, I don't believe it.

Here is link to the source: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/97/20714_NICOTROL INHALER 10MG, CARTRIDE_CHEMR.PDF
In case that doesn't work try this:National Vapers Club - Meeting Place for lovers of e-cigarettes, personal vaporizers and all things "fog" producing!
and then go to last document listed (which is labeled "FDA Approval Package for Nicotrol Inhaler"). Within that "package", one place to find info mentioned in my post is under the "Chemistry Review(s)" and on page 5 of that review. There does appear to be redactions in this documents but my statement about the synthetically manufactured nicotine comes from this at page 5: "The drug substance, nicotine, is synthesized by [ blanks ] and the Nicotine Inhaler is manufactured tested, packaged and released by Pharmacia, AB of Helsingborg, Swed"

Then - why do you find it unbelievable? Price? Different effect than if from tobacco?

 

[Old Chemist]

Then - why do you find it unbelievable? Price? Different effect than if from tobacco?

Thanks for the links. I will try to analyze it a bit deeper during the weekend.
As for your question: both. Price of synthetic nic is much higher than of tobacco derived natural substance.
The effect: natural occuring nic is the L-isomer. Synthetic is a 50:50 mixture of L and D isomers. Of those two, only L-nicotine is active biologically. D-nic has roughly 6% activity of the L-isomer. Then one should either separate both isomers (expensive) or synthesize the pure L-isomer (even more expensive).
Nicorette and similar products use tobacco derived nicotine. Everything is accepted by FDA, because it's all just the matter of nicotine purity and the absence of such substances like TSNAs.

Of course I may be wrong - I'm just a poor old chemist from Poland.

 

[JW50]

Thanks for the links. I will try to analyze it a bit deeper during the weekend.
As for your question: both. Price of synthetic nic is much higher than of tobacco derived natural substance.
The effect: natural occuring nic is the L-isomer. Synthetic is a 50:50 mixture of L and D isomers. Of those two, only L-nicotine is active biologically. D-nic has roughly 6% activity of the L-isomer. Then one should either separate both isomers (expensive) or synthesize the pure L-isomer (even more expensive).
Nicorette and similar products use tobacco derived nicotine. Everything is accepted by FDA, because it's all just the matter of nicotine purity and the absence of such substances like TSNAs.

Of course I may be wrong - I'm just a poor old chemist from Poland.

Within the "package" mentioned there is a "Pharmacology Review(s)". Within that document is some interesting testing done on dogs. It seems also interesting that L and D isomers are not mentioned. But, in one case the nic was IV'd into the dogs. (Just an aside: Wonder if the dogs were trained to say "This feels good, like a L-isomer should.) Anyway, some interesting methods used to get those dogs a fix of nicotine. In one case, fed the whole inhaler and all but 3% of nic was "consumed".

Would be interested to know what "a poor old chemist from Poland" thinks about the the Chemistry and Pharmacology reviews.

 

[JW50]

Also within the "Pharmacology Reviews" is the following:

The chamber was supplied with breathable air from compressed air cylinders and the nicotine mist was supplied to the incoming air by ultrasonic generator placed below a solution of nicotine hydrogen tartarate dihydrate. The nicotine solution was supplied to the generator reservoir and flow rate was controlled by a needle valve. The particle size of the mist was anayyzed and found to range from ??? microns and therefore below respirable particles in the rat, up to 5 microns.

Question for the Old Chemist: Does nicotine hydrogen tartarate dihydrate react somehow in the lungs/respiratory system to create L or D isomer nicotine? How does one make nicotine hydrogen tartarate dihydrate?

 

[ThreeRing]

Good to know, I do wonder what the other health concerns are, i think I'll go read up on that now.

 

[JW50]

This may be a silly question, but if you are inhaling nicotine in the vapor, isn't there nicotine in the vapor when you exhale? If someone walks through your vapor cloud, aren't they breathing nicotine?

I think jury is still out. All information brought forth suggests that the nic amount in the exhale is small. But nothing confirms it is non-existent. Best advice so far sees to be :

I believe any risk is minimized if they wave their hands and fake cough.

But, personally, not real confident with answers to date. Nonetheless, info provided suggests if there is some in exhale, seems likely it won't accumulate and hang around long. So - likely - no brown walls and dirty windshields. But I have heard some youtubes where reviewer says something like "all absorbed". Suspect that is not totally correct. Suspect there is a relationship in how much is expelled to what the vaper does with the inhale. Hold it short in - exhale out maybe significant. Hold it in long - probably minuscule. Inhale and immediate blow in someones face - probably, again, significant. But - even in later case - waving hands and faking cough probably resolves the nic. But if one wishes to complain anyway - they will probably do so no matter what you do. My thoughts - avoid those likely to complain.

 

[JW50]

I think jury is still out. All information brought forth suggests that the nic amount in the exhale is small. But nothing confirms it is non-existent. Best advice so far seems to be :

I believe any risk is minimized if they wave their hands and fake cough.

But, personally, not real confident with answers to date. Nonetheless, info provided suggests if there is some in exhale, seems likely it won't accumulate and hang around long. So - likely - no brown walls and dirty windshields. But I have heard some youtubes where reviewer says something like "all absorbed". Suspect that is not totally correct. Suspect there is a relationship in how much is expelled to what the vaper does with the inhale. Hold it short in - exhale out maybe significant. Hold it in long - probably minuscule. Inhale and immediate blow in someones face - probably, again, significant. But - even in later case - waving hands and faking cough probably resolves the nic. But if one wishes to complain anyway - they will probably do so no matter what you do. My thoughts - avoid those likely to complain.

A question not addressed here is "If there is some small quantity (or greater than small) of nicotine in the exhale of the vaper, is that adverse to the person who might be exposed to the exhale." I think the antis will be swearing - hell yes - but not sure the scientific facts are unequivocally a yes there.