Silly QOD: What's in the exhaled vapor?

[ScottinSoCal]

It seems plausible to me that the exhaled nic goes somewhere and does not just disappear.

But it does. Nicotine is a naturally-occurring compound, and it degrades in the environment. If it didn't, we'd all be swimming in nicotine residue from the tens of thousands (millions?) of years plants have been producing it.

This isn't directly applicable, because it addresses nicotine in quantities massively higher than could ever possibly accumulate from vaping in the real world:

Environmental fate and effects of nicotine released during cigarette production.
Seckar JA, Stavanja MS, Harp PR, Yi Y, Garner CD, Doi J.
Source

Research & Development, R.J. Reynolds tobacco Company, Winston-Salem, North Carolina 27102, USA. seckarj@rjrt.com
Abstract

A variety of test methods were used to study the gradation, bioaccumulation, and toxicity of nicotine. Studies included determination of the octanol-water partition coefficient, conversion to CO2 in soil and activated sludge, and evaluation of the effects on microbiological and algal inhibition as well as plant germination and root elongation. The partitioning of nicotine between octanol and water indicated that nicotine will not bioaccumulate regardless of the pH of the medium. The aqueous and soil-based biodegradation studies indicated that nicotine is readily biodegradable in both types of media. The microbiological inhibition and aquatic and terrestrial toxicity tests indicated that nicotine has low toxicity. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Persistence, Bioaccumulation, and Toxicity Profiler model, based on the structure of nicotine and the predictive rates of hydroxyl radical and ozone reactions, estimated an atmospheric half-life of less than 5.0 h. Using this value in the Canadian Environmental Modeling Center level III model, the half-life of nicotine was estimated as 3.0 d in water and 0.5 d in soil. This model also estimated nicotine discharge into the environment; nicotine would be expected to be found predominantly in water (93%), followed by soil (4%), air (3%), and sediment (0.4%). Using the estimated nicotine concentrations in water, soil, and sediment and the proper median effective concentrations derived from the algal growth, biomass inhibition, and buttercrunch lettuce (Lactuca sativa) seed germination and root elongation studies, hazard quotients of between 10(-7) and 10(-8) were calculated, providing further support for the conclusion that the potential for nicotine toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial species in the environment is extremely low.

That's 3 days if it's dispersed in water, and just 1/2 a day in soil. A linoleum floor or carpet would be much closer to the soil figure than it would the water.

 

[JW50]

ScottinSoCal - Not quite disappearing - but close. Glad you found the info and shared it. I'm feeling better about the exhaled vapor. Next thought is - what does it biodegrade to. I'm also thinking that that brown stuff on the walls and on the windshields of smokers homes and autos is not really nicotine at all even though frequently called "nicotine". And, I think I still believe, even though I feel confident the world is not made up of people with lupus in hospitals, that it is best to avoid vaping in vicinity of non-vapers.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

Next thought is - what does it biodegrade to.

To other naturally occurring compounds.

I'm also thinking that that brown stuff on the walls and on the windshields of smokers homes and autos is not really nicotine at all even though frequently called "nicotine".

It's not. It's tar, and ash particulate from the burning plant material, and formaldehyde, and all that other crap that's in cigarettes.

As far as vaping around non-vapors, do what makes you happy. I come from a family of rabid non-smokers (Mormons, mostly) who won't allow anyone to smoke on their property, let alone in their house. But I can vape in their house. My sister loves the way my Ms T Apple Pie juice smells, and frequently asks me to exhale at her, so she can smell it. She's on a diet, and she's craving sweets.

 

[NCC]

I'm sure there's some nicotine remaining on exhale, along with the liquid's base (PG &/or VG) and some water condensate. Difficult to believe there's much nicotine though. FWIW, the primary concern with second hand cigarette smoke is not its nicotine content, but rather the thousands of other chemicals present in cigarette smoke (it's the smoke that 'gets ya').

When I saw the thread title I thought you were curious about the visible product. I was, more than a year ago, LOL.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/68669-what-visible-product-composed.html
There's still some debate about this topic today. The kiosk vendors are fond of pointing out the water vapor, to the exclusion of other visible components ... very misleading IMO.

 

[Alodie]

Thank you for all of the information. I'm going on vacation with my parents and siblings this month, and my brother-in-law is the Chair of the chemistry department at UC Irvine, so I wanted to be prepared. He's also a really nice guy, but being prepared and primed with facts can really help the vaping cause.

 

[cookiebun]

Cookiebun - You may be right that the evidence is overwhelming. However, I've researched the issue some, let me say substantial IMO, and, if I have a bias it is toward e-cig, but I am not overwhelmed with what I have found. You might take a look at this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/183533-wow-if-you-havent-read-do-now.html
There is a link at the first post to a statement of ASH. You might note what that statemnet says about second hand vape. There have also been some experiments done by exogenesis and DVap that relate. Theses members are chemists, and very sharp ones at that. In one of the experiments 2/3 of the nic in vape was accounted for and the other 1/3 was apparently exhaled. It seems plausible to me that the exhaled nic goes somewhere and does not just disappear. It is also plausible to me that the exhaled nic eventually settles and that in heavily vaped indoor areas, that nic may be more accumulated and concentrated than in other areas. It also seems plausible to me that exhaled vape contains nic. That is, IMO it is reasonable for vapers to comply with local smoking ban ordinances in the same manner as if smokers - even though vaping is not smoking.

One extract from the ASH statement follows:

But perhaps the real problem – the very human problem – is best expressed by letters which our organization receives about e-cigarettes. One read:
“My first exposure to e-cigarettes was last year in a hospital; smokers were made to go outside but three e-smokers plus two staff were using the e-cigarettes inside . . . I have lupus and the vapor irritated my nose, eyes, throat, and chest, plus the nicotine was making me feel nauseous so there must have been significant quantities in the side-vapor. I am told I had no rights to stop the use of these cigarettes indoors. It makes a mockery of the new laws.”

IMO - until there is more proof on the issue - e-cig interest is best served by not intentionally or unintentionally forcing vapor in the direction or in the vicinity of others. And if there should be some indoor vaping taking place in ordinanced areas where perhaps vaping is not specifically addressed, better that it be inconspicuously done - away from others.

Yes I have been following that thread. I read that part of the forum every day.
The question was about exposure to second hand vapor. I posted links to what little research there is, and the many already existing threads on this topic. I never said I PERSONALLY agreed with any of these conclusions. FYI, I would never vape somewhere I couldn't smoke. When I go to visit friends or family I got outside to vape just like I did when I was smoking. I do vape inside my apt. around my husband because he doesn't mind. This is a man who could smell analog smoke through a closed window.

I'm not here to debate or argue, I'm simply posting links for people who can't or won't use Google Advanced Search. I'm a hermit. I work and go to the grocery store. I genuinely don't care about about the vaping where I can't smoke issue.

 

[DVap]

The question, "What's in exhaled vapor?" is one that some of us science guys on the forum have discussed, but we've really gotten nowhere on coming up with any answers.

The culprit is carbon dioxide. Dissolved in water, carbon dioxide is acidic (H2CO3 ----> H+ + HCO3-), and buggers up any attempt to do a precise titration to quantitate nicotine in exhaled vapor.

Does anyone here want to contribute a possibly valuable experiment? You will need a non-smoking, non-vaping spouse/SO who is has not been exposed to 2nd-hand smoke from analogs in at least 2 weeks, but spends considerable time in close proximity to you while you vape. Basically, your vaping should be as close as this person gets to nicotine.

The premise of this experiment is that if 2nd hand vapor contains appreciable nicotine, then a "Nicalert" test strip will detect something on the 1 - 6 scale. So the experiment would be simply to get a Nicalert strip, and have your spouse/SO test their urine with it. Does your spouse/SO register positive or not? If so, at what level (1-6)?

This doesn't answer all or most of the questions about 2nd hand vapor, but it does something important, it begins to answer questions.

 

[rolygate]

This is a perennial question and nobody has published any complete and unchallengeable analysis of vapor, to date. I did find numerous studies, and reviewed four of them here:

Analysis of e-cigarette vapor

There were two issues here:

1. None of the trials provided a 99.9% analysis of the vapor, including all ingredients, and thus the end results - taken individually - were meaningless.

2. Two of the trial results were accompanied by photos that showed e-cigarettes being operated inverted. They cannot possibly work like this as they are gravity-fed liquid-feed devices that operate in a similar way to a kettle, with the heating element immersed in a liquid bath. If you turn a kettle upside down you know what will happen.

Other photos of similar trials also show e-cigarettes being operated upside down, so we must assume that cigarette smoking equipment is being used. This equipment cannot be used to test e-cigarettes unless it is adapted so that the e-cig can be operated in a correct, tip-down manner. Because of this crucial trial design error, seen in all of the available photos of trials, it is therefore necessary to assume that all such trials are faulty. No vapor trial results are acceptable unless photographic evidence is provided that shows the e-cigarette being operated in the correct way.

A composite of these results indicates that inhaled vapor may consist of about 66% water, 3% PG/VG, and 1% nicotine, the rest being unaccounted for but probably flavorings. Exhaled vapor would contain less particulates (PG, nicotine, flavorings) and more water, plus carbon dioxide.

However these vapor analyses have to be regarded as seriously flawed due to the proven incorrect operation of the equipment. One result even showed a large amount of alcohol, which is an anomalous finding. It is even possible that this is a misidentification of combustion products from overheated plastic materials from within the body of the e-cigarette.

 

[scinsc]

The question, "What's in exhaled vapor?" is one that some of us science guys on the forum have discussed, but we've really gotten nowhere on coming up with any answers.

The culprit is carbon dioxide. Dissolved in water, carbon dioxide is acidic (H2CO3 ----> H+ + HCO3-), and buggers up any attempt to do a precise titration to quantitate nicotine in exhaled vapor.

Does anyone here want to contribute a possibly valuable experiment? You will need a non-smoking, non-vaping spouse/SO who is has not been exposed to 2nd-hand smoke from analogs in at least 2 weeks, but spends considerable time in close proximity to you while you vape. Basically, your vaping should be as close as this person gets to nicotine.

The premise of this experiment is that if 2nd hand vapor contains appreciable nicotine, then a "Nicalert" test strip will detect something on the 1 - 6 scale. So the experiment would be simply to get a Nicalert strip, and have your spouse/SO test their urine with it. Does your spouse/SO register positive or not? If so, at what level (1-6)?

This doesn't answer all or most of the questions about 2nd hand vapor, but it does something important, it begins to answer questions.

See posts #9 & #15 in this thread.

 

[TomCatt]

I'm sure there's some nicotine remaining on exhale, along with the liquid's base (PG &/or VG) and some water condensate. Difficult to believe there's much nicotine though. FWIW, the primary concern with second hand cigarette smoke is not its nicotine content, but rather the thousands of other chemicals present in cigarette smoke (it's the smoke that 'gets ya').

When I saw the thread title I thought you were curious about the visible product. I was, more than a year ago, LOL.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/68669-what-visible-product-composed.html
There's still some debate about this topic today. The kiosk vendors are fond of pointing out the water vapor, to the exclusion of other visible components ... very misleading IMO.

I have received 'info cards' (~2 months ago) in my package from a forum registered supplier that stated that what was exhaled was water vapor. I tossed those cards

 

[DVap]

See posts #9 & #15 in this thread.

That's good to hear!

 

[JW50]

That's good to hear!

I would agree that SCs findings are positive to e-cig interests but it lacks IMO the precision and preciseness needed to overcome the complaints of the Lupus sufferers, in hospital locations, that are "forced" to suffer more from the vapers second hand vape. It is quite possible that there is no amount of science that would overcome such complaints but it would be nice to have some science that said something like "concentration of x parts per billion", "no higher than found in a walk through the park" or something along those lines to give more creditability to a statement that a vapers exhale is unlikely to do harm. Although I haven't brought myself to trying any of TropicalBob's more extreme ways to get nic, it is still possible I suppose that I have nic'd my brain to a degree by ordinary vaping and that I not longer recall well. But, in the fog of my brain it seems there was an experiment that you and exogenensis where involved in where the amount of nic in the exhale was established. My recollection was that with a short hold of the vape that 1/3 of the nic of inhale was captured in the exhale. Was that result the fog in my head or wasn't there something along that line?

 

[scinsc]

I would agree that SCs findings are positive to e-cig interests but it lacks IMO the precision and preciseness needed to overcome the complaints of the Lupus sufferers, in hospital locations, that are "forced" to suffer more from the vapers second hand vape. It is quite possible that there is no amount of science that would overcome such complaints but it would be nice to have some science that said something like "concentration of x parts per billion", "no higher than found in a walk through the park" or something along those lines to give more creditability to a statement that a vapers exhale is unlikely to do harm. Although I haven't brought myself to trying any of TropicalBob's more extreme ways to get nic, it is still possible I suppose that I have nic'd my brain to a degree by ordinary vaping and that I not longer recall well. But, in the fog of my brain it seems there was an experiment that you and exogenensis where involved in where the amount of nic in the exhale was established. My recollection was that with a short hold of the vape that 1/3 of the nic of inhale was captured in the exhale. Was that result the fog in my head or wasn't there something along that line?

I agree that it would be great to have more precise numbers but I tend to go for a common sense approach about vaping in public. I would be willing to bet that someone chewing nicotine gum is exhaling as much if not more nicotine than a PV and they are seen as almost heroes for being brave enough to quit smoking. I think folks that use a PV should be treated the same way.

 

[DVap]

I would agree that SCs findings are positive to e-cig interests but it lacks IMO the precision and preciseness needed to overcome the complaints of the Lupus sufferers, in hospital locations, that are "forced" to suffer more from the vapers second hand vape. It is quite possible that there is no amount of science that would overcome such complaints but it would be nice to have some science that said something like "concentration of x parts per billion", "no higher than found in a walk through the park" or something along those lines to give more creditability to a statement that a vapers exhale is unlikely to do harm. Although I haven't brought myself to trying any of TropicalBob's more extreme ways to get nic, it is still possible I suppose that I have nic'd my brain to a degree by ordinary vaping and that I not longer recall well. But, in the fog of my brain it seems there was an experiment that you and exogenensis where involved in where the amount of nic in the exhale was established. My recollection was that with a short hold of the vape that 1/3 of the nic of inhale was captured in the exhale. Was that result the fog in my head or wasn't there something along that line?

There was no such experiment performed as Exo and I got hung up on how to deal with the CO2. We had some ideas, but both of us got onto other things and it never came to anything.

I'd say if you're trying to come up with, "how can we show lupus sufferers at hospitals that ecigs are OK", I'd say your effort is misguided since it's as much a battle of perception as one of fact. So long as something *thinks* it's a bad thing, I can promise you they'll come up with symptoms. Such is the mind.

 

[JW50]

There was no such experiment performed as Exo and I got hung up on how to deal with the CO2. We had some ideas, but both of us got onto other things and it never came to anything.

I'd say if you're trying to come up with, "how can we show lupus sufferers at hospitals that ecigs are OK", I'd say your effort is misguided since it's as much a battle of perception as one of fact. So long as something *thinks* it's a bad thing, I can promise you they'll come up with symptoms. Such is the mind.

Obviously, I must have a nic'd brain. But, on the other hand, there must be a way to measure nic concentration in the exhale. OK, CO2 complicates and perhaps makes impossible titration, but surely titration is not the only way to an answer. Maybe the exhale of a 24mg (or whatever) vaper as compared to the exhale of a zero mg vaper. Perhaps in the difference between the two, or the sum of the two less one, etc. something could be learned even in titration. Mind you, not a chemist and certainly no where close to understanding titration. Point is, there must be a way to measure. I think I have a handle on lupus sufferers in hospitals but I'm looking at situation with a bit of bias in my mind. Not for a moment do I wish her to suffer - or anyone - and I suspect the suffer is still there even if the exhale is nothing more than a walk through park. But it would be nice to know, with some reasonable certainty, that the complaint - whatever it is - is perception instead of nic, PG or VG in her biological system. I somewhat disagree on the "misguided" part. I think there is comfort in knowing, scientifically, that we are, with no doubt, dealing with perception as opposed to dealing with irritants that are not irritants to 99% of the population. Surly, surly, there must be a way to know how much nic, and how long it may last before degrading to undetectable levels, is in the exhale?

 

[DVap]

Sure, there are multiple approaches that would work... most of which could get me fired for using GCMS systems in an unauthorized manner.

 

[love60869339]

This is a perennial question and nobody has published any complete and unchallengeable analysis of vapor, to date.

 

[JW50]

DVap - Here is a link that may be of interest. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...has-anyone-ordered-new-smokefree-version.html
In this link a new type of e-cig is alleged. Perhaps even safe for lupus sufferers in hospitals. Basically - as I read it - there is this perfect carrier for nic. No mess or fuss - just 100% efficiency nic to let us poison ourselves as we like. You may find in the link considerable disagreement that this 100% efficiency carrier is real. Some say stock hype. Probably a good chance there. But I have no clue. Conceptually, nic jumps on nanobeads in the vape and inhale. Nic jumps off in the biological system while within. All gone and enjoyed before the exhale. Nothing left for perception or science. Maybe not even PG or VG or anything in the exhale other than what one might exhale in a walk through the park. Get advancement - maybe. Any thoughts about the nanobeads? (The issue deals with what's in the exhale - seems on the mark in this thread.)

 

[Grumpus]

I didn't read all the posts, but a few things about what's going on. Nicotine is a naturally occuring substance found in several fruits and vegatables, but it's highest naturally occuring in Tobacco. Is nocotine all that bad, likely not at all. Is all the junk that Big Tobacco puts into the tobacco dangerous, hell yes. Anytime you eat ketchup, spaghetti sauce, eggplant you intaking nicotine.

Anyone who has been to a concert or nightclub is expose to far higher levels of "fog juice" ina few hours than a vaper would normally take in in a few days.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[JW50]

I didn't read all the posts, but a few things about what's going on. Nicotine is a naturally occuring substance found in several fruits and vegatables, but it's highest naturally occuring in Tobacco. Is nocotine all that bad, likely not at all. Is all the junk that Big Tobacco puts into the tobacco dangerous, hell yes. Anytime you eat ketchup, spaghetti sauce, eggplant you intaking nicotine.

Anyone who has been to a concert or nightclub is expose to far higher levels of "fog juice" ina few hours than a vaper would normally take in in a few days.

Just something to keep in mind.

Grumpus - Not trying to be negative, but where is the consolation for the (my add here) "little, pretty, girl in the" (from ASH hereafter) hospital that suffers from Lupus? She hasn't the health to go to fog concerts nor does she partake of nic containing veggies and fruits.