Silly QOD: What's in the exhaled vapor?

[stillalive]

I have some autoimmune problems with my eyes and mouth getting too dry, and I feel like if anything irritated her mucus membranes it would have been PG, not nicotine. It could also have been psychosomatic (not that that isn't legitimate discomfort, but yeah). But geez, just don't blow vapor into peoples' faces and it *really* should not be a problem.

 

[DVap]

DVap - Here is a link that may be of interest. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...has-anyone-ordered-new-smokefree-version.html
In this link a new type of e-cig is alleged. Perhaps even safe for lupus sufferers in hospitals. Basically - as I read it - there is this perfect carrier for nic. No mess or fuss - just 100% efficiency nic to let us poison ourselves as we like. You may find in the link considerable disagreement that this 100% efficiency carrier is real. Some say stock hype. Probably a good chance there. But I have no clue. Conceptually, nic jumps on nanobeads in the vape and inhale. Nic jumps off in the biological system while within. All gone and enjoyed before the exhale. Nothing left for perception or science. Maybe not even PG or VG or anything in the exhale other than what one might exhale in a walk through the park. Get advancement - maybe. Any thoughts about the nanobeads? (The issue deals with what's in the exhale - seems on the mark in this thread.)

It's easy enough to get nicotine without vapor... that silly nicotine inhaler that big pharma peddles does it. As I recall, most folks who use it report feeling like a jackass sucking on the things and pretending to blow out smoke. At this point, you might as well wear a patch and suck on a straw...

 

[LEEIII]

when people ask me that around town, i say "lung water" and leave it at that. that's the fastest way i've found of explaining it.

(PS: in my experience, even when shotgunned, people cannot feel any nicotine tingles from my vapor.)

 

[JW50]

There was no such experiment performed as Exo and I got hung up on how to deal with the CO2. We had some ideas, but both of us got onto other things and it never came to anything.

I'd say if you're trying to come up with, "how can we show lupus sufferers at hospitals that ecigs are OK", I'd say your effort is misguided since it's as much a battle of perception as one of fact. So long as something *thinks* it's a bad thing, I can promise you they'll come up with symptoms. Such is the mind.

DVap - Here is the experiment that I was referring to in my post.

Well, that was not quite a waste of time

After bubbling for 24 hours acidified, the exhaled vapour titration curve had the shape of a
nicotine + (bi)carbonate simulated curve.

For some reason the CO2 removal worked with the test solution of acidified
(nicotine + sodium bicarbonate), but didn't with the actual exhaled vapour
(with added CO2/water from breath).

Only thing I can think of is that bicarbonate or carbonate is 'bound' with the nicotine somehow
in exhaled vapour (in equals amounts?).

Assuming worst case i.e. 50/50 nic/HCO3 & approximating the nicotine as half the nicotine+CO3 titre,
this test gave ~33% of the nicotine from the juice in the exhaled vapour
(~15 mg recovered from ~48 mg nicotine i.e. 2ml of 24mg/ml),
bearing in mind I was drawing in to mouth & exhaling as soon as possible.

Only thing I can say is that : trying not to get nicotine uptake from juice by mouth intake only,
and quick exhale, gives as little as 1/3rd & as much as 2/3rds of the nicotine adsorbed.

Guess I need to design a purpose built 'double exhale-volume vapour collector',
and sort out a definitive 'account for CO2' method, maybe a later project,
unless there's a strong interest in getting further info now.


Otherwise returning to the next of the more-reliable tests,
which will be 6V vaping of 10ml of 36mg/ml PG on 901 atty,
to see if any significant amount of nic. is killed off.
Last edited by exogenesis; 12-30-2009 at 02:29 PM.

This is post #132 of exogenesis in the How much nicotine is destroyed during vaping ? thread.

 

[Wil]

Personally, I never bought the second-hand-smoke argument by the anti-tobacco lobby, and I really don't worry about it with vapor. I think the second-hand-smoke thing is just a way to demonize smokers...

I agree to an extent... There are situations where this does happen, but it's not at the local bar or at the bus stop. It happens when you've got a parent smoking in the house or in the car constantly, where a child has no escape, and it happens day in, day out, over many years.

Of course, bad parenting is different than hanging out at the neighborhood watering hole and getting a touch of second hand smoke...

 

[Archetype]

It's mostly plutonium 239 I think.

 

[Rosa]

according to the vapor4life business cards the exhaled vapor is 99% water and 1% nicotine and "other".

 

[JW50]

As follow up on post #44, there is research done done cigarette smoking (found here: ScienceDirect - Toxicology Letters : Respiratory retention of nicotine and urinary excretion of nicotine and its five major metabolites in adult male smokers) than suggests that the nicotine taken in from the draw of a cigarette, about 11% or 98% or 99.6% of that nicotine will be "taken up" by the system of the smoker with the varying percentages reflecting inhalation patterns of the smoker. The 11% figure being reflective of a pattern of drawing in by the smoker, but no inhalation to lungs, then exhaling (i.e. Seemingly similar to the method used by exogenesis). The 11% figure for the cigarette smoker is 100% take in, 11% uptake, and 89% exhaled. For exogenesis, it was 100% in, 67% uptake and 33% exhale. The numbers seem to suggest that with a "normal inhale" of the vape of the e-cig that very little, if any, of the nicotine in the vape will be exhaled. With a deep vape, perhaps one where the vape is retained long enough so that all PG or VG has condensed before exhale, there should again be next to zero nicotine in the exhale. Here is a link to the thread that is referenced in post #44 above. I think some better inside can be obtained about the issue there.

 

[JW50]

The link that was not provided in post #48: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ow-much-nicotine-destroyed-during-vaping.html

 

[JW50]

according to the vapor4life business cards the exhaled vapor is 99% water and 1% nicotine and "other".

Can't image where they would have gotten such information. Personally, I think its dead wrong. Seems like CO2 is going to be there as sizable part of the exhale, some water, air, some PG or VG or both (fog), and "other" seems more likely.

 

[unsure]

Maybe this might help if not already mentioned...

Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled

 

[DVap]

Wow.. I really don't recall that one.

Seems Exo kinda started into it, but never really took it further.

 

[JW50]

Maybe this might help if not already mentioned...

Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled

This reference was brought up in post #16. The problem (problem IMO) with the reference is that it does not quantify what is in the exhale, instead simply saying that "exhaled breath after e-smoking contains even less nicotine per puff, as much of nicotine inhaled is absorbed." The experiment of exogenesis mentioned above quantifies the "even less" to suggest that without even inhaling "e-smoke" into lungs 2/3 rds of the intake nicotine is absorbed and 1/3 rd is exhaled. Then, the ScienceDirect reference mentioned at post #48 is suggestive that if exogenesis had attempted to inhaled the "e-smoke" into his lungs the nicotine in the exhale would have been something on the order of 2% times 33% (or less than 1%) of that in the inhale. This result tends to confirm what the healthnz reference here states but it would be much more "proving" and conclusive if there were direct measurements of the nicotine exhaled by a vaper.

 

[tornadosiren]

I cant help but wonder why the fact that we blow out CO2 is being mentioned here. I mean, Yes, we do. But we do that when we are breathing good old fashioned air as well, so why even add it into the mix and complicate the issue? OMG, you are blowing CO2 at me!! It is correct that V4Ls silly card does not mention CO2..Why should it?? Every breath we take adds CO2 to the air. Umm..Its called breathing folks. The other stuff, I see more research being needed. But don't make the problem worse than it is.

 

[phonedude]

This may be a silly question, but if you are inhaling nicotine in the vapor, isn't there nicotine in the vapor when you exhale? If someone walks through your vapor cloud, aren't they breathing nicotine?

I believe any risk is minimized if they wave their hands and fake cough.

 

[Higbe33]

Until further studies are done, we should not stand around a sick person in the hospital and blow second hand vapor on them.

All kidding aside, I have severe COPD from 45 years of smoking and 35 years in the fire department not always using good safety habits, so can identify with folks that cringe when they see vapor. I am very sensitive to cleaning solvents now, the smell of hot brakes following a large truck downhill, the house fireplace after it has cooled and the cold air coming down the chimney is pushing the smell out into the room and the wife doing her fingernails. She goes outside to use the remover, but sometimes just seeing her in the chair with a file makes my chest tighten.

We use a fog machine as a training aid. It is a mineral oil base liquid and that will get to me after a few exposures and does cause a reaction to those with asthma. Vaping does not bother me and got me off analogs, however I can appreciate folks with breathing problems and will not vap around folks I don't know.

My post has nothing to do with the products in second had vapor, however might fit in the overall picture...... or not.

Hig

 

[JWebb]

Funny, Archetype, nice to see people still have a sense of humor.

 

[JW50]

Until further studies are done, we should not stand around a sick person in the hospital and blow second hand vapor on them.

All kidding aside, I have severe COPD from 45 years of smoking and 35 years in the fire department not always using good safety habits, so can identify with folks that cringe when they see vapor. I am very sensitive to cleaning solvents now, the smell of hot brakes following a large truck downhill, the house fireplace after it has cooled and the cold air coming down the chimney is pushing the smell out into the room and the wife doing her fingernails. She goes outside to use the remover, but sometimes just seeing her in the chair with a file makes my chest tighten.

We use a fog machine as a training aid. It is a mineral oil base liquid and that will get to me after a few exposures and does cause a reaction to those with asthma. Vaping does not bother me and got me off analogs, however I can appreciate folks with breathing problems and will not vap around folks I don't know.

My post has nothing to do with the products in second had vapor, however might fit in the overall picture...... or not.

Hig

It is my understanding that although fog machines may be mineral oil based, many are propylene glycol or glycerine based. In the training that you did are you sure all were mineral oil based. Does vaping a PG based e-liquid vs a VG based e-liquid evoke a different feeling - for you? That is, are you sensitive to either the PG or VG? Congrats are getting of the cigs.

 

[JW50]

It's easy enough to get nicotine without vapor... that silly nicotine inhaler that big pharma peddles does it. As I recall, most folks who use it report feeling like a jackass sucking on the things and pretending to blow out smoke. At this point, you might as well wear a patch and suck on a straw...

This raises an interesting (to some maybe) point. Those pharma nicotine inhalers do not use PG or VG (or heating apparently). From info they have filed with the FDA, they apparently are using synthetically manufactured nicotine. Perhaps nothing special there in the synthetic except likely no "X" factor present. But how does that nicotine get from the inhaler into the inhalers system? On particles normally in the air maybe?? Water vapor maybe?? When the user of the inhaler breaths out, wouldn't there likely still be some nicotine in that user's exhale (even with no visible "fog" present)? Then, for an e-cig, if the PG (or VG) is a solvent to carry the nicotine in the e-juice to the e-cig users system, wouldn't it be likely that much of the e-juice vapor/mist would condense/cool in the vaper's mouth and therefore simply be ingested into the digestive tract by e-cig user?

 

[Higbe33]

JW50 - I've looked at our bottles and they say mineral oil and come in different flavors. I haven't noticed any difference with all VG or 50/50 mix. No headaces at all, but seem to be sore all over. Probably just old age and not serious enough to look into. If I drop a dime on the floor, I'll pick it up. If I drop a penny, I have to think if the effort is worth it. That type of sore.

Hig