Smoke, Lies & the Nanny State

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t9c

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Smoke, Lies & the Nanny State by Joe Jackson (the singer/songwriter, NOT the father of 4 of them)
Found this rather intriguing article referenced to on of all places, the Facebook group: Americans For Non-Smoker's Rights. It's a pretty long read, but there's a lot of parallels to the fight we're forced into by the anti Nazi's lumping us vapers in with smoking bans. He has a great way of expressing himself and makes a whole lot of sense, even if he is coming from the smoker's side of the fence. Hell, we were all smokers once, right?

Anyway, I enjoyed it, maybe you will too.
 

Bahnzo

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I gave this a very quick read...two things stuck out at me.

First is something that a college professor told me..."Statistics are always manipulated to prove a point".

Second is the second hand smoke stuff. It's blown completely out of proportion. There's a show on Showtime called "........" by the magicians Penn and Teller....they did a show on second hand smoke and came to same results.

One thing that stuck with me was this: (and these numbers are from the top of my head, but close) In people that don't smoke, and don't work in place where they are exposed to second hand smoke, they get lung cancer at a rate of 8.6 per 1million. People who don't smoke and do work in a place where they are exposed......9.2 per 1million. It's statistically insignificant, yet the study that found this is often used as evidence to ban smoking in public.

I'm not surprised by this, but it's good to see someone semi-famous (no offense Joe, I actually own a couple of your albums..that's right, as in 33 1/3) talk about it.
 

Vocalek

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And this would explain why the antis feel so threatened by us:

Anyone who really studies the evidence must come to one inevitable conclusion: that the intention is not to protect the public from a threat, but to stigmatise smokers and make smoking ‘socially unacceptable’. You’d think antismokers would be glad that ‘passive’ smoke, at least, isn’t hurting anyone. On the contrary: to admit as much would be to surrender their most effective weapon.

What if (gasp!) society comes to accept PV users as regular people instead of outcasts? What if we are allowed to stay inside and play with the other kids instead of being sent to the "naughty corner"?
 

rothenbj

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This is a tremendous article and really should be read in its entirety. However, it is pretty long and some will undoubtedly not make it to the end.

I copied and pasted his attempt at anger management from near the end of the article. It might not be parenthesized accurately due to transcription, but you'll get the point.

I think Joe should produce some protest songs. It might kick start his career. :)

WHY I’M BLOODY FURIOUS

This what it comes down to. Firstly, I’m bloody furious that I, a responsible adult, am forbidden to have a smoke with a social drink - anywhere in the country. What makes me more furious, though, is that the National Health Service is in disarray, with doctors and nurses being laid off, hospitals closing, and people waiting months for important surgeries; and yet they spend millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money (my money!) on slick TV commercials, with Spielberg-esque special effects of sinister tendrils of ‘secondhand smoke’ enveloping innocent victims, to spread fear and intolerance and to depict smokers like me - with no good proof - as murderers.

I’m bloody furious that the USA fails to address major issues of terrorism, poverty, violent crime or environmental disaster, but spends well over a billion dollars a year on dishonest anti-smoking propaganda.

I’m bloody furious that AIDS, typhoid and dysentery are rampant in the developing world, and that more than 2 million children a year die simply from lack of access to clean water; yet the World Health Organisation spends millions trying to bully the comfortable citizens of prosperous countries out of their pleasures, when those citizens will live long and generally healthy lives anyway.

I’m bloody furious at the self-righteousness which accompanies the current anti-smoking climate when it is, is to a large extent, a political and economic phenomenon. The unprecedented success of the anti-smoking movement over the last 7-8 years corresponds directly to unprecedented infusions of cash from the Master Settlement Agreement and the WHO’s pact with Big Pharma (in addition, of course, to punitive taxation and other less tangible forces such as ‘political correctness’). Quite simply, the tobacco industry has been outmatched by a rich and powerful anti-smoking industry, whose tactics are about as righteous as those of the street fighter who, having knocked his enemy down, proceeds to give him a damn good kicking.

Every prohibitionist movement is essentially about power and profit, dressed up as health and morality. Any time a human pleasure can be shown to carry some risk, the doors are opened for those who want to tax, sue, regulate, legislate and discriminate. The story of Absinthe, for instance, parallels anti-smoking every step of the way: the same pseudo-science, selective and out of proportion propaganda, fearmongering, stigmatisation of the user, and largely unrecognised vested interests (in that case, the French wine industry).

Finally I’m bloody furious that ‘public health’ is rapidly accumulating powers which totally bypass the democratic process. This can be seen at many levels: Mayor Bloomberg’s health inspectors have powers to enter and search which exceed those of the police (they have, among other things, raided peoples’ private offices and fined them for the crime of Being In Possession Of An Ashtray). But it goes right to the top, with the WHO dictating policy to democratically-elected governments. Though it may strike some as a ‘conspiracy theory’, all the evidence suggests that health authorities and their pharmaceutical allies are establishing a supra-national nanny state which will increasingly dictate our lifestyles whether we like it or not.
 

Bill Godshall

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I urge folks to not post old articles or press releases (the one posted for this thread is from 2007), nor stories about cigarettes that have nothing to do with e-cigarettes (as this rant by Joe Jackson clearly was) on this forum (or at least on this e-cigarette news thread).

Its becoming far more diffucult to sort through (on this forum) the critically important news stories and legislative/legal/policy threats/opportunities because so many irrelevant threads are being created.

Those who want to deny the health hazards of smoking and/or tobacco smoke pollution are encouraged to go to The FORCES International Liberty News Network to post that stuff.
 

maxx

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On the contrary, Bill. The enemies of e-cigs are the same ones we faced as smokers. And they use the exact same warped methods. I think it is important and useful to study those tactics, so we can recognize them in the future. A good example is the flawed second-hand smoke study mentioned. Anti-smokers cling to it just like they now want to cling to the severely flawed FDA analysis.

As for where someone posts? Is the FORCES site the cyber equivalent of outside and 25 feet from the entrance to ECF?
 

kristin

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Unfortunately, the zealous pro-smokers feel no kinship with vapers. On the contrary, they see us as being as bad as the ex-smoker that turns into an anti-smoking zealot. I've seen numerous references by pro-smokers pointing to to e-cigarette forums being hostile to smokers. I have yet to see this personally - I think the pro-smokers are so used to anti-smoking rhetoric meaning "anti-smoker" that they read our anti-smoking comments in the same light.

Anyhow, I mention this because the pro-smoking camp seems to be just as intent on disproving e-cigarettes as the anti-smoking camp and uses it's statistics/studies about second hand and even first-hand smoke to downplay any health improvements we claim and disprove anti-smoking claims. After seeing these studies cited by pro-smokers to show that the antis are lying, it was a scary eye-opener as to why the antis so easily dismiss the studies cited by e-cigarette users. To them, we're just another group of smokers using numbers to prove the ridiculous.

Reading pro-smokers claims that the research about the dangers of smoke are overblown and/or outright lies is shocking. You can read a lot of it at Dr. Seigel's blog in the comments. It's complete denial or serious downplaying that smoke causes any harm. I was finally moved to post a comment (which I can't seem to find now) and said that I, as a former smoker, don't need studies to tell me what my body was already telling me and that it was a shame that they saw vapers as a new enemy. I said that even if their cited research could prove that people weren't getting lung cancer, etc from smoking, that as smokers, watching them denying that the smoke had a negative effect on their body was like watching that Monty Python and the Holy Grail skit where the black knight - arms and legs cut off by a sword - proclaimed, "'Tis but a scratch!"

Deny what the antis claim all you want. But to deny the negative health effects you feel as a smoker makes you look foolish. You can't fool someone who actually smoked.

You can't blame Bill for not wanting to reopen the discussion about the dangers of second-hand smoke, as his life's work has been about stopping it, but I think Maxx is correct that we can learn something by learning the tactics used by the antis - and now even those used by the pro-smoking camp.
 
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rothenbj

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On the contrary, Bill. The enemies of e-cigs are the same ones we faced as smokers. And they use the exact same warped methods. I think it is important and useful to study those tactics, so we can recognize them in the future. A good example is the flawed second-hand smoke study mentioned. Anti-smokers cling to it just like they now want to cling to the severely flawed FDA analysis.

As for where someone posts? Is the FORCES site the cyber equivalent of outside and 25 feet from the entrance to ECF?

You couldn't be more on point Max. With all respect to Bill, I have watched this anti movement go from smoking to SHS to nicotine to tobacco and I have yet to see anything that justifies the approach and it doesn't get better over time. Now we have another product that the nannies are trying to lock down and they are using the same techniques.

I've read it on here already, people feeling vapers should do the same as smokers (go outside like second hand citizens to vape), that we should accept additional taxes, that we should be manipulated as those before us. I say BS. When the "health" community is willing to sit side by side with tobacco/vapers and use science to establish a continuum of risk, we better be very proactive about their methods. The "health" community has never been close to taking that stance.

I don't like to see the derisive attitude that has developed between the smokers and vapers. We tend to forget the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Not only should the smokers be our friends, we are them, even you Bill. Being an ex-smoker, you and I and the rest of us carry that scarlet A on our chest and will be identified as such in that final book they call morbidity statistics.
 

maxx

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I would like to see smokers and vapers close ranks too...but I doubt that will happen with smoke so demonized now and vapers trying to put as much distance as possible between the two groups in the hopes of some sort of public acceptance. I span both camps. I never carry real cigs when I am out and about, just my e-cigs, but still have some here at home and burn one occasionally....just for spite I think.

I saw something similar in my workplace....construction. Most everyone uses some form of tobacco in that business. If it isn't smoke, it's snuff. Now, the snuffers (chewers) didn't care at all when we were being pushed outside or taxed to death. Then taxes started in on smokeless tobacco and general contractors started saying that work sites were not just smoke-free....they were tobacco-free as well. Now the smokers and snuffers are best friends again. It always comes down to where a person is standing at any given moment. ;)
 

t9c

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Smoke, Lies & the Nanny State by Joe Jackson (the singer/songwriter, NOT the father of 4 of them)
It's a pretty long read, but there's a lot of parallels to the fight we're forced into by the anti Nazi's lumping us vapers in with smoking bans.

I honestly didn't know where else on the ECF to post this. Yes, I looked.

But....if just one other member here learned something from it, then I guess it was worth the chastising.
:glare:
 

harmony gardens

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I agree we're walking a delicate line, and we need to be careful not to fall victim to the divide and conquer effect. I agree that I've expirienced a huge benefit from vaping, and there's no doubt it's better than smoking.

(Edited to remove snarky comment)

I agree that vaping is better, than smoking,,, but does it really hurt to know about the lies and deceptions that anti's use? The plain truth is, these people are punishing people for smoking. The fact that they are willing to lie and decieve to forward thier agenda is over the top. If they want to tell people that smoking is bad for you, and you should quit that's great, and those of us who are vaping should shout from the rooftops about how it helps us. We still have to deal with the hatred toward smokers that this lot has brought on us. When we vape, we're tossed under the same bus that these lies crush people under. This is why nicotine can't be separated from smoking,,, the anti's won't let it.
 
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bassnut

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Every time we quote the "4,000 chemicals, 50 carcinogens" point we're going to upset the pro-smoking camp.
It's a necessary point for pro-vapers to make.

I'm far from being an anti-smoke activist but I have discovered that since I switched to vaping exclusively, I'm a little bothered by tobacco smoke. It smells like car exhaust with something nice mixed in.
I'd rather not smell it at all but I work in a smoking permitted night club and after a few minutes there I don't notice it at all unless it gets blown in my face. Car exhaust! We (the band) don't permit smoking in front of the stage.

I get why the anti smokers are anti to a certain degree but I don't get the anti e-cig stance.
 
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D103

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We have to be extremely careful in our passion and fervor to see this new technology survive and remain available to us all that we are not blinded in the "fog of war". It is very easy for all of us to go on and on about "finding the truth" and demanding "unbiased studies" etc. and I too feel this way, but what you have to ask yourself is- are you sincere and willing to accept the truth, the best available science. If truly unbiased and comprehensive testing should end up showing that e-cigs are harmful to health in some significant way..are you willing to accept that? And conversely, if this long fight and demand for the truth not only vindicates e-cigs but also debunks the 'currently accepted beliefs about second-hand smoke dangers' can you accept that? What if, say, the continued "search for the truth" and the most "unbiased science" leads us to a place where we not only allow e-cigs and other smokeless tobacco products to remain on the market but we end up ammending or relaxing some of the current smoking bans? Can you accept that? Because if you answered no to any of these questions then you are being disingenuous in crying for the truth and I would argue, while you certainly have a right to your opinion, in this issue you are more a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution. I am NOT advocating ammending smoking bans, but I seriously question the science and politics that contributed to them and I believe it hypocritical to "give that a pass" while at the same time demanding "higher, truthful standards" regarding electronic cigarettes.
 
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IVapus

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We have to be extremely careful in our passion and fervor to see this new technology survive and remain available to us all that we are not blinded in the "fog of war". It is very easy for all of us to go on and on about "finding the truth" and demanding "unbiased studies" etc. and I too feel this way, but what you have to ask yourself is- are you sincere and willing to accept the truth, the best available science. If truly unbiased and comprehensive testing should end up showing that e-cigs are harmful to health in some significant way..are you willing to accept that? And conversely, if this long fight and demand for the truth not only vindicates e-cigs but also debunks the 'currently accepted beliefs about second-hand smoke dangers' can you accept that? What if, say, the continued "search for the truth" and the most "unbiased science" leads us to a place where we not only allow e-cigs and other smokeless tobacco products to remain on the market but we end up ammending or relaxing some of the current smoking bans? Can you accept that? Because if you answered no to any of these questions then you are being disingenuous in crying for the truth and I would argue, while you certainly have a right to your opinion, in this issue you are more a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution. I am NOT advocating ammending smoking bans, but I seriously question the science and politics that contributed to them and I believe it hypocritical to "give that a pass" while at the same time demanding "higher, truthful standards" regarding electronic cigarettes.

Very eloquently put, and amen to that. One dogma based on questionable premises is as good as another.
 

bassnut

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I'm more than willing to accept the truth regarding e-cigs although that idea crossed my mind too - some variation of "What happens if the IVAQS research project reveals something bad?".

My belief is that smoking bans will never be relaxed and e-cig acceptance will be an uphill battle for as long as any of us are alive. I think we're just doing damage control and working hard to mitigate the inevitable. It's just the times we're in.

Everybody remembers the history lesson around prohibition.
It failed miserably and actually led to a period of great permissiveness and freedom flaunting i.e. sexual revolution, widespread recreational drug use, everybody smoking everywhere, drinking is cool a la Dean Martin, all of which has arguably gotten out of hand.
We're seeing a backlash in the form of bans, limitations, laws and taxation.

A lot of those freedoms have eroded and continue to erode (except the legalize pot issue - interesting!) as the nanny state grows and personal freedom declines. People now have the right to be free from somebody else's cig smoke...at the loss of personal freedom i.e. what you can eat in N.Y. What soft drinks you can buy in S.F. just to name two and there's plenty more coming.
Hopefully I'm wrong and there will be the same backlash as what ended prohibition. I just don't see it happening soon.

..and BTW. If the IVAQS research project reveals e-cigs are dangerous I will wash Vocalek's dishes for a year!
 

Vocalek

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I'm more than willing to accept the truth regarding e-cigs although that idea crossed my mind too - some variation of "What happens if the IVAQS research project reveals something bad?".

My belief is that smoking bans will never be relaxed and e-cig acceptance will be an uphill battle for as long as any of us are alive. I think we're just doing damage control and working hard to mitigate the inevitable. It's just the times we're in.

Everybody remembers the history lesson around prohibition.
It failed miserably and actually led to a period of great permissiveness and freedom flaunting i.e. sexual revolution, widespread recreational drug use, everybody smoking everywhere, drinking is cool a la Dean Martin, all of which has arguably gotten out of hand.
We're seeing a backlash in the form of bans, limitations, laws and taxation.

A lot of those freedoms have eroded and continue to erode (except the legalize pot issue - interesting!) as the nanny state grows and personal freedom declines. People now have the right to be free from somebody else's cig smoke...at the loss of personal freedom i.e. what you can eat in N.Y. What soft drinks you can buy in S.F. just to name two and there's plenty more coming.
Hopefully I'm wrong and there will be the same backlash as what ended prohibition. I just don't see it happening soon.

..and BTW. If the IVAQS research project reveals e-cigs are dangerous I will wash Vocalek's dishes for a year!

That backlash needs to hurry up and get here. Things are getting very 1984-ish. Freedom is Tyrrany. Tyrrany is Freedom. Big Brother truly is watching us now. Is it election day yet?

I can understand why you made that generous offer, Bassnut. It's unlikely you'll have to pay up. We already have a lot of studies conducted on the liquid and a few studies on the vapor itself and nothing dangerous has emerged.
 
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